Claims of student massacre spread

Claims of student massacre spread - Middle East, World - The Independent

I peered out. The gates of the university were now shut. Behind them was a crowd of hundreds of young men and women, many wearing scarves over their mouths. I crossed the road. And the banners behind those forbidding gates told a frightening story. "Today is a day of mourning," one of them read. "Dignified students are mourners today." "Police, shame on you, shame on you." "Tell my mother – she doesn't have a son any more."

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I am beginning to think it may not matter much whether this story is more rumor than fact. Somebody did some killing at Tehran University, and the students are blaming the Basiji militias and the police.

If rumours of student deaths and violent suppression start spreading, an uprising could be difficult to control.

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It is too soon to know anything with certainty, but news items like this make me wonder if this protest has turned (or is about to turn) the corner into outright rebellion.

TEHRAN, Iran (AFP) – Seven people were killed when a military post was attacked near a rally held a day ago in Tehran to protest the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, radio Payam announced.

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Seven people killed near Tehran rally site: radio - Yahoo! News


Ahmedinejad has left Iran. From the liveblog at HuffPost: Iran Updates (VIDEO): Live-Blogging The Uprising

1:04 AM ET -- Is Ahmadinejad's exit an alarming sign? There are a slew of reports coming in about new violence in Iran. I've been trying to sift through and find as much evidence as possible. In the meantime, however, reader Salim makes a critical point about the apparent newly-aggressive crackdown: "not surprised...they will want to crush this now, before it gets out of hand... and Ahmadinejad is out of country so it would not reflect on him...this is probably well orchestrated." Not clear if this is the case, of course, but well worth considering.

1:01 AM ET -- Ahmadinejad lands in Russia. Via Diane Tucker, the AFP reports:

YEKATERINBURG (Russia) - IRAN'S President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad arrived in Russia on Tuesday to attend a regional security summit, in his first foreign trip following his disputed re-election, an official in the Iranian delegation told AFP.

'Yes, yes, yes, his plane is now sitting' at the airport in the Russian city of Yekaterinburg in the Urals Mountains, the Iranian official said on condition of anonymity.

12:40 AM ET -- The clerics reject Ahmadinejad. A moment from Monday's rally, from the Wall Street Journal's report tonight: "A young cleric from the Shiite holy city of Qom addressed the crowd. 'I have come to bring you a message from Qom," he said. "Without a doubt, all clerical scholars are against the current situation. The only person acceptable to them is Mr. Mousavi, they have rejected Mr. Ahmadinejad's request to meet them in the past two days.'"

Hats off to the Journal reporters working in Iran, Farnaz Fassihi and Roshanak Taghavi among them, whose daily reports are the most vivid and powerful coming out of the U.S. print media.


[lots of video's, go to the blog to see them]


10:09 PM ET -- The 7 demands. An Iranian-American friend comments, "that's asking for a revolution baby..."

7 point statement distributed among the protesters in Tehran today:

1. Dismissal of Khamenei for not being a fair leader
2. Dismissal of Ahmadinejad for his illegal acts
3. Temporary appointment of Ayatollah Montazeri as the Supreme Leader
4. Recognition of Mousavi as the President
5. Forming the Cabinet by Mousavi to prepare for revising the Constitution
6. unconditional and immediate release of all political prisoners
7. Dissolution of all organs of repression, public or secret

Looks like it's turning into a full blown uprising. There's even rumors of some of the elite Revolutionary Guard being arrested. Unconfirmed rumor, but if it's true, then Khamenei's losing some of his power base.

I would like to see these claims confirmed before they are propagated so readily as fuel for the Western desire to see the Iranian government overthrown.

TEHRAN, Iran (AFP) – Seven people were killed when a military post was attacked near a rally held a day ago in Tehran to protest the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, radio Payam announced.

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Keep in mind, AFP is reporting what the Iranian media is reporting. That version of events may not be accurate. From the BBC:

"Several thugs wanted to attack a military post and vandalise public property in the vicinity of Azadi Square," the radio said referring to the site of the protest...

The BBC's Jon Leyne in Tehran says that in light of what he saw of the vast and largely peaceful protests this seems an unlikely version of events.

The Mullahs need to go. Time to "loose" some guns.

Supplementing the BBC report disputing the Iranian government's version of events, The New York Times' Lede blog has the following snippet:

Update | 9:42 a.m. A reader in Iran, Somayeh, writes to say that she was present during the incident on Monday evening, when Iranian security forces killed at least seven protesters, according to state radio. Somayeh says that “there was silence and anger” until “riot police and Basiji hardliners shoved through the crowd” and started shooting. She adds: “although I was rescued by people, I feel that I’m already dead.”

Derka-Derka?

donsutherland1 said:

Supplementing the BBC report disputing the Iranian government's version of events, The New York Times' Lede blog has the following snippet:

Update | 9:42 a.m. A reader in Iran, Somayeh, writes to say that she was present during the incident on Monday evening, when Iranian security forces killed at least seven protesters, according to state radio. Somayeh says that “there was silence and anger” until “riot police and Basiji hardliners shoved through the crowd” and started shooting. She adds: “although I was rescued by people, I feel that I’m already dead.”

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Apparently, after this occurred, the protesters attacked a Basiji building and burned it to the ground.

Never is there a more crystal clear demonstration of the necessity to keep and bear arms as there is in the actions taken in Iran against its People currently.

Ikari said:

Never is there a more crystal clear demonstration of the necessity to keep and bear arms as there is in the actions taken in Iran against its People currently.

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Good lord you gun nuts can use anything to push your agenda. That is just sad.

Redress said:

Good lord you gun nuts can use anything to push your agenda. That is just sad.

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What's sad is not supporting the right of the Iranian People to defend themselves against a tyrannical and treasonous government. The form of government that may have rigged an election, the form of government which sent in its armed police to murder students. I for one would like the tools necessary to fight back, and if possible overthrow such a horribly tyrannical government.

Ikari said:

What's sad is not supporting the right of the Iranian People to defend themselves against a tyrannical and treasonous government. The form of government that may have rigged an election, the form of government which sent in its armed police to murder students. I for one would like the tools necessary to fight back, and if possible overthrow such a horribly tyrannical government.

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I don't control Iran, nor do you or any one else in the US. We don't make policy over there, or their laws. There are any number of threads about guns, why not stick to those with gun crap.

Because I was replying to a thread in which the topic was a people being killed by their government for political protest reasons. Thus the right to keep and bear arms is well connected with the People's ability to enforce the exercise of their rights against the militaristic arm of people control used by the government. Why don't you actually contribute to the thread instead of just insulting my posts and doing nothing but taking up space in the thread.

Ikari said:

Never is there a more crystal clear demonstration of the necessity to keep and bear arms as there is in the actions taken in Iran against its People currently.

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I doubt there are few more categorical defenders of the 2nd Amendment than myself, but I have to agree with Redress on this one.

The topic is Iran and their protest-cum-rebellion, not the 2nd Amendment.

Ikari said:

Because I was replying to a thread in which the topic was a people being killed by their government for political protest reasons. Thus the right to keep and bear arms is well connected with the People's ability to enforce the exercise of their rights against the militaristic arm of people control used by the government. Why don't you actually contribute to the thread instead of just insulting my posts and doing nothing but taking up space in the thread.

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Let me give you a hint: a country with tanks and a military is not going to be slowed down much by a few people with rifles. Further, the one country that we can control policy in, something like what is happening in Iran is not going to happen.

Or to put it another way, guns are a nonissue with what is happening in Iran.

celticlord said:

I doubt there are few more categorical defenders of the 2nd Amendment than myself, but I have to agree with Redress on this one.

The topic is Iran and their protest-cum-rebellion, not the 2nd Amendment.

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I didn't mention 2nd amendment, I mentioned the Students ability to fight back against the Police in a country desperate for revolution.

Again. If any of you actually wish to contribute to the conversation, you're more than welcome.

celticlord said:

I doubt there are few more categorical defenders of the 2nd Amendment than myself, but I have to agree with Redress on this one.

The topic is Iran and their protest-cum-rebellion, not the 2nd Amendment.

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On that topic, does this effect anyone else kinda like Tienamen did? I remember seeing the coverage when it was going on, and being just emotionally devastated. Somehow I am having a similar reaction here, just really feeling for the protesters, and becoming emotionally attached.

Redress said:

Let me give you a hint: a country with tanks and a military is not going to be slowed down much by a few people with rifles. Further, the one country that we can control policy in, something like what is happening in Iran is not going to happen.

Or to put it another way, guns are a nonissue with what is happening in Iran.

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The Chinese government has tanks and a military, and should its People revolt especially with guns, there's nothing the government could do to stop it. The numbers are on the other side. Furthermore, we have no control of the policy set by Iran and in general neither do its People. The armed citizenry would stand better chance of resisting the violence perpetrated against it in both election fraud and actual killing had they the means to revolution.

The US has tanks and a military and even we haven't quelled the fires in Iraq for how many years now? Tools and resolve are all that is needed.

Ikari said:

The Chinese government has tanks and a military.

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Tienanmen Square, 1989. Ring a bell?

Tanks are most effective interlocutors of public policy.

Redress said:

On that topic, does this effect anyone else kinda like Tienamen did? I remember seeing the coverage when it was going on, and being just emotionally devastated. Somehow I am having a similar reaction here, just really feeling for the protesters, and becoming emotionally attached.

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Actually, I'm thinking more Bucharest than Beijing, with Khameni in the Ceaucesceu role.

celticlord said:

Tienanmen Square, 1989. Ring a bell?

Tanks are most effective interlocutors of public policy.

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There was limited protest, should the People of China rise up, there's nothing the Chinese government can do. That's 1/5 of the world's population. And even one against tanks, the symbolism of Tienanmen Square lives on in those whom are able to learn about it. It doesn't stop the fact that Iran may be heading towards a necessary revolution.

celticlord said:

Actually, I'm thinking more Bucharest than Beijing, with Khameni in the Ceaucesceu role.

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I did not actually watch and have the connection in that case, but I see your point.

Ikari said:

There was limited protest, should the People of China rise up, there's nothing the Chinese government can do. That's 1/5 of the world's population. And even one against tanks, the symbolism of Tienanmen Square lives on in those whom are able to learn about it. It doesn't stop the fact that Iran may be heading towards a necessary revolution.

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The Chinese People did rise up once. It was in 1911 and it was called The Cultural Revolution...under Mao Zedong.

Take down one tyrant, and replace it with another. That's the way the world has always worked.

Redress said:

On that topic, does this effect anyone else kinda like Tienamen did? I remember seeing the coverage when it was going on, and being just emotionally devastated. Somehow I am having a similar reaction here, just really feeling for the protesters, and becoming emotionally attached.

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Hell yes. See avatar.

Knowing that my forum friend, Perham, with whom I've posted for the last 3 years, is there, wanting his vote to count, makes it even more real to me. If you knew Perham like many of the PF posters know Perham, you'd be even more impacted, I guarantee it.

Arch Enemy said:

The Chinese People did rise up once. It was in 1911 and it was called The Cultural Revolution...under Mao Zedong.

Take down one tyrant, and replace it with another. That's the way the world has always worked.

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We rolled a natural 20 in our revolution. Though this really is off topic now.

The point was to say that it is possible to successfully revolt against a technologically superior force and that is aided by having the tools necessary for revolt. Iran has an educated populace and a desire for some form of actual democracy, if there is a country in the ME ripe for revolution and the establishment of as near a Western style democracy as could naturally evolve in the area; Iran is where it's at. This election and the atrocities the Iranian government is taking against its people highlights the necessity for revolution in Iran.

But you are right in that it's always some form of dice throw, you may not come out better; which is why revolution is the final option and not something lightly engaged in.