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NYC officials duped into approving first gay marriage

danarhea

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And it looks like New York has performed other gay marriages without knowing it.

The Post notes that one half of the blissfully married duo arrived for their wedding ceremony in a dress, which was perhaps enough to fool city officials.

But what are government officials going to do? Demand to look up the bride's wedding dress each time they grant a marriage license? I would say that would be going too far, as a person's privates are his or her own damn business.

You know, the question and answer I just posed makes makes a case for marriage too - None of the Government's damn business. As for myself, I don't understand why some people are gay, but I am straight, so I will probably never understand. But I do wish the couple a long and happy life together. In the end, that is the whole point of marriage.

Article is here.
 
And it looks like New York has performed other gay marriages without knowing it.



But what are government officials going to do? Demand to look up the bride's wedding dress each time they grant a marriage license? I would say that would be going too far, as a person's privates are his or her own damn business.

You know, the question and answer I just posed makes makes a case for marriage too - None of the Government's damn business. As for myself, I don't understand why some people are gay, but I am straight, so I will probably never understand. But I do wish the couple a long and happy life together. In the end, that is the whole point of marriage.

Article is here.

The government should not be performing any marriages in the first place.
 
The government should not be performing any marriages in the first place.

Damn straight. But Social Cons feel that it is the government's job to enforce social norms. Like I said, Social Conservatism often contridicts fiscal and governmental conservatism.
 
Damn straight. But Social Cons feel that it is the government's job to enforce social norms. Like I said, Social Conservatism often contridicts fiscal and governmental conservatism.

How do you figure? Liberals and conservatives want it. Libertarians are the only people who are saying that the government should have no say. Liberals are pushing even harder than conservatives about the issue. Don't act so blameless.
 
How do you figure? Liberals and conservatives want it. Libertarians are the only people who are saying that the government should have no say. Liberals are pushing even harder than conservatives about the issue. Don't act so blameless.

Perhaps obvious Child is a libertarian liberal?

Is that possible?
 
The government should not be performing any marriages in the first place.

The genie is sorta out of the lamp on this one. What do you think the odds are of government no longer performing marriages? As likelihoods go, this is right up there with the dissolution of the IRS and international treaties.
 
And it looks like New York has performed other gay marriages without knowing it.

But what are government officials going to do? Demand to look up the bride's wedding dress each time they grant a marriage license? I would say that would be going too far, as a person's privates are his or her own damn business.

You know, the question and answer I just posed makes makes a case for marriage too - None of the Government's damn business. As for myself, I don't understand why some people are gay, but I am straight, so I will probably never understand. But I do wish the couple a long and happy life together. In the end, that is the whole point of marriage.

Article is here.

Are the BN rules written in bible code or something? wtf?

***
This is fraud. At best the state will annul the marriage, at worst they'll press charges.

I hope they press charges.
 
The genie is sorta out of the lamp on this one. What do you think the odds are of government no longer performing marriages? As likelihoods go, this is right up there with the dissolution of the IRS and international treaties.

I only stated my opinion: That the government should not perform any marriages.
My reasoning is firstly, that marriage was originally and is still in many cases a religous institution, which would seem to get into the whole seperation of church and state issue.

And, secondly, that removing government from marriage would eliminate much of the argument over it. No laws regarding it would mean no political debate. Let the various religions decide internally if they want to allow gay marriage. It's a religious question anyway. Or should be, and would be, if the financial element (tax reductions for a married couple?) were not involved.

Personally, I think government involvement should be in the form of a legal agreement only, not a legal agreement with religious overtones.

But, that is just me ranting.

Regarding your question as to what I think the odds are of this happening?

Very little.

After all, it's a great topic to get elected with (from either side).
 
How do you figure?

Tell me, are the Social Cons arguing for government to get out of marriage and stop regulating social norms?

No.

Where do you find laws dictating what individuals can do in the privacy of their homes? States with strong socially conservative voting blocs. Laws banning sodomy are not found in the Pacific Northwest. And generally laws banning cohabitation are all but laughed at when it comes to prosecution on the West Coast.

Social Conservatism clashes with a belief for smaller government as social conservatism pushes its agenda.

Liberals and conservatives want it. Libertarians are the only people who are saying that the government should have no say. Liberals are pushing even harder than conservatives about the issue. Don't act so blameless.

I'd say liberals want it because they don't have a problem with big government, nor do they hide that fact.

And in some ways, they are a bit more realistic then those (including me) who argue for removal of government from marriage. That's not likely to happen. Ever. Even though it should. Thus, they push for it through government. In a way, it's like voting for the one party system because you know third parties have no chance even if you hate the system. No government in marriage is the ideal, but the ideal is unlikely to occur. Thus, they go with what is actually possible.

How does one determine the level of pushing? Social Cons (and I say social because they are fundamentally different from the other flavors of Conservatism), wanted to change the Constitution.
 
The genie is sorta out of the lamp on this one. What do you think the odds are of government no longer performing marriages? As likelihoods go, this is right up there with the dissolution of the IRS and international treaties.

Just because it's unlikely doesn't mean we can't dream. I agree with you that isn't not going to happen, at least any time soon. Both parties in America are solidly pro-more government whether they want to admit it or not. Getting out of marriage is like defunding the Pentagon. It's not going to happen.
 
Perhaps obvious Child is a libertarian liberal?

Is that possible?

Correction. Realistic Libertarian. Liberal and Conservative ideas depend on the circumstance as to their value. Raising taxes during a recession is a dumb **** idea, but lowering taxes during an inflationary period is also a dumb **** idea. An intelligent person does not adhere to any specific political ideology just because it's their ideology.
 
On what planet is marriage only in the home?

Huh? My example was that social conservatives have pushed government into our private lives, which contridicts a fiscal/governmental/libertarian belief in smaller government. It wasn't directly related to marriage per se, just the notion of social conservatism does not favor smaller government.
 
On what planet is marriage only in the home?

Earth.

Unless you're homeless.

Or, as George Carlin would say "Houseless" because home is really a state of mind.

But 'home' in the abstract is what he meant, and I think you knew that. So, your clever little comeback wasn't so much clever as it was little.:2razz:
 
Huh? My example was that social conservatives have pushed government into our private lives, which contridicts a fiscal/governmental/libertarian belief in smaller government. It wasn't directly related to marriage per se, just the notion of social conservatism does not favor smaller government.

No one's telling gays that they can't do something that's in the privacy of their own home :confused:
 

Erm, no, try again :2wave:

A marriage is in the hospital when your spouse is ill.
A marriage is in your place of work when you want your spouse covered in your insurance plan.

I mean, the list goes on and on.
 
I only stated my opinion:

I know. I'm not dumping on you as if you were stating a fact.

My reasoning is firstly, that marriage was originally and is still in many cases a religous institution,

That would be extremely difficult to establish, since marriage has been used in every culture since before written history.

which would seem to get into the whole seperation of church and state issue.

If the government were to force churches to perform marriages against their tenets, this would be true. However, as it would be courthouses that perform marriages, not churches, the separation of church and state is not threatened.

And, secondly, that removing government from marriage would eliminate much of the argument over it.

Conversely, so would allowing gay marriage.

No laws regarding it would mean no political debate.

Well, yes. Removing government, and therefore politics, would indeed remove political debate. However, you would only see the issue picked up just as strongly, if not more so, by theological debate.

Let the various religions decide internally if they want to allow gay marriage. It's a religious question anyway.

See, I'm just not aware of any pro gay marriage position that states that various religions must accept gay marriage within their own churches.

Or should be, and would be, if the financial element (tax reductions for a married couple?) were not involved.

Much has been made of the financial aspect of marriage, but it's more than that. Marriage is a symbol throughout civilization of the ultimate bond between two people . Everything else, such as "civil unions," are watered down concepts which is why a lot of gay people aren't settling for it. And frankly, if marriage were only a religious institution, no atheists would be getting married. Of course, you might say that atheists in this regard are misguided, but that would be highly presumptuous.

Personally, I think government involvement should be in the form of a legal agreement only, not a legal agreement with religious overtones.

I am not personally familiar with courthouses performing marriages with religious overtones, unless you're interpreting the marriage itself as connoting the religious overtone.

But, that is just me ranting.

No prob.


Regarding your question as to what I think the odds are of this happening?
Very little.

The world is always changing. Sometimes these changes make me uncomfortable, sometimes not. In the end all I can do to deal with it is determine how concretely or abstractly they effect me. If they affect me personally (and perhaps negatively), I decide if I need to adapt or fight back. If abstractly, I adjust my outlook and roll with it. Not only will governments continue to perform marriages, but gay marriage, nationally, is inevitable. People who were against gay marriage will need to adjust their outlook so that they don't feel their own marriages somehow mean less. I'm not trying to sound condescending, it's just that I genuinely see all this as inevitable.

After all, it's a great topic to get elected with (from either side).

True that.
 
Correction. Realistic Libertarian. Liberal and Conservative ideas depend on the circumstance as to their value. Raising taxes during a recession is a dumb **** idea, but lowering taxes during an inflationary period is also a dumb **** idea. An intelligent person does not adhere to any specific political ideology just because it's their ideology.

Correction: statist.

I'm tired of all these big government people on these boards calling themselves libertarians. It's a shame that the mods don't seem to care either.

It's fine that you don't stick so dogmatically to your ideology, but when you find yourself on many positions (especially such important ones) to be completely at odds with the ideology that you claim to be, then maybe you're not really a part of that ideology. Just a thought.
 
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Correction: statist.

I'm tired of all these big government people on these boards calling themselves libertarians. It's a shame that the mods don't seem to care either.

Wait...wtf do you expect a mod to do about this? What forum rule was broken?

DP mods are not here to enforce factual accuracy. If you think you found a fault in someone's argument it's your job to point that out. That's why you're ****ing here.

What would you expect a mod to do about this?
 
Wait...wtf do you expect a mod to do about this? What forum rule was broken?

DP mods are not here to enforce factual accuracy. If you think you found a fault in someone's argument it's your job to point that out. That's why you're ****ing here.

What would you expect a mod to do about this?

A little touchy tonight? How would you feel about an anarchist advocating a tax hike to pay for welfare and bailouts. You wouldn't call him an anarchist would you?
 
A little touchy tonight? How would you feel about an anarchist advocating a tax hike to pay for welfare and bailouts. You wouldn't call him an anarchist would you?

That's what you want the mods to do?
 
Correction: statist.

I'm tired of all these big government people on these boards calling themselves libertarians. It's a shame that the mods don't seem to care either.

Tell me, I'm a statist yet I want government out of marriage and to let individuals and private entities to determine it? Do you know what statist means?

Just as it's a shame how big government social cons pretend that they aren't big government. And how liberals here pretend they are conservative. What's your point? Many a so proclaimed Conservative here are more liberal than the actual liberals they insult on a regular basis.

It's fine that you don't stick so dogmatically to your ideology, but when you find yourself on many positions (especially such important ones) to be completely at odds with the ideology that you claim to be, then maybe you're not really a part of that ideology. Just a thought.

Maybe you're not, but that's not always a bad thing. Dogmatic beliefs generally are asinine beliefs. But with Libertarianism, you push for the most libertarian of the options. The option that maximizes personal freedom within a rational framework. Sometimes that's takes a liberal slant. Sometimes it's Conservative.

Ideally from a libertarian view, government would get the hell out of marriage and I've gone on record at least five times calling for just that. Realistically, that ain't going to happen. So what's the next freedom maximizing option? Make gay marriage legal. And to anyone who values marriage on external inputs rather than internal inputs, you got bigger problems. When Britney's Spear's weddings impact the value of your marriage more than what you put into it, it's time to see a marriage counselor.
 
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Well, not anymore, especially after Texas like Sodomy laws were struck down. But remember who enacted those laws in the first place.

It doesn't matter since their not on the books. Get over it.
 
Tell me, I'm a statist yet I want government out of marriage and to let individuals and private entities to determine it? Do you know what statist means?

Just as it's a shame how big government social cons pretend that they aren't big government. And how liberals here pretend they are conservative. What's your point? Many a so proclaimed Conservative here are more liberal than the actual liberals they insult on a regular basis.

Yes, you're a statist despite wanting government out of marriage. There is no way that you can call yourself a libertarian without cringing with all of the things that you've said on these boards.

Maybe you're not, but that's not always a bad thing. Dogmatic beliefs generally are asinine beliefs. But with Libertarianism, you push for the most libertarian of the options. The option that maximizes personal freedom within a rational framework. Sometimes that's takes a liberal slant. Sometimes it's Conservative.

Ideally from a libertarian view, government would get the hell out of marriage and I've gone on record at least five times calling for just that. Realistically, that ain't going to happen. So what's the next freedom maximizing option? Make gay marriage legal. And to anyone who values marriage on external inputs rather than internal inputs, you got bigger problems. When Britney's Spear's weddings impact the value of your marriage more than what you put into it, it's time to see a marriage counselor.

Except I can't support that option and I will never vote my support for it. Marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what's great about libertarianism. The state is out of it and you can call yourselves whatever you want. I don't mind that, but don't expect me to ever support it.

But I've heard you on other issues and you seem to never choose the "freedom maximizing option."
 
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