Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

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Right now, the Iranian protesters are keeping this as non-violent as they can. These are the things we can do to help them. If this becomes a human rights battle, it can be as powerful as guns and bullets.

In the spirit of Ghandi and MLK.

Confirmation! This is good for the protesters.

Iran's senior ayatollah slams election, confirming split | McClatchy

Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009
Iran's senior ayatollah slams election, confirming split

By Warren P. Strobel and Jonathan S. Landay | McClatchy Newspapers
TEHRAN, Iran — Supporters of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his main rival in the disputed presidential election, Mir Hossein Mousavi, massed in competing rallies Tuesday as the country's most senior Islamic cleric threw his weight behind opposition charges that Ahmadinejad's re-election was rigged.

"No one in their right mind can believe" the official results from Friday's contest, Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri said of the landslide victory claimed by Ahmadinejad. Montazeri accused the regime of handling Mousavi's charges of fraud and the massive protests of his backers "in the worst way possible."

"A government not respecting people's vote has no religious or political legitimacy," he declared in comments on his official Web site. "I ask the police and army personals (personnel) not to 'sell their religion,' and beware that receiving orders will not excuse them before God."

As many as three more protesters were reported killed in clashes during Tuesday's opposition demonstration in Vanak Square — adding to eight who were confirmed killed in Monday's protests.

Foreign news organizations were barred from covering Wednesday's demonstrations, and the source of the report of the latest deaths was a witness known to McClatchy, who asked that his name not be used for his own security.

Tehran residents, who spoke to a McClatchy reporter on condition that their names not be published, said there was widespread intimidation by thousands of members of the Basij, a hard-line Islamic volunteer militia loyal to the Islamic regime.

Iranian bloggers reported scattered violence after dark by Basij members.

Nor were reports of violence limited to the capital.

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MLK succeeded because of politicians passing laws supporting his effort. Iranians have no support like that.
Ghandi succeeded because of armed revolts against the British for decades but more importantly because of the Japanese and WWII.

Neither man would have succeeded without inside help or ousted forces.
If the Iranians try to do that then they should go home now..before they get re-educated like the Chinese where.

................................

I've still seen nothing that shows this is going to be anything more then similar to the 1999 and 2003 protests..both lasted about 10 days before both fading away and being put down.



1989 was 20 years ago.. I saw the same naive stuff about the Chinese as I am seeing here. Hopefully it will not end the same way..BUT if it does it will be a much needed education for some.

Lerxst said:

And that kind of treatment is very good for them strategically. It humanizes both the riot police and rioters. I think it could lead to police defections. The GC is already ordering the arrest of numerous military leaders they believe are at risk of siding with the protesters.

Good for the Iranians.

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And this is exactly what crossed my mind when I saw these examples posted.

Kudos to the "resistance" members who are doing this, it definately shows them in a respectable light.

Triad said:

MLK succeeded because of politicians passing laws supporting his effort. Iranians have no support like that.

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Yes they do. The reformers have many powerful allies in the government and clergy. They should take advantage of that and lean heavily on those leaders to take down Khamenei and bring about democracy, instead of shunning them for not being ideal leaders.

Iran's senior ayatollah slams election, confirming split?

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what?

Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri is not a "senior Ayatollah" he;s not even in the government.

He was kicked out by Khomenie in the late 80's for publicly criticizing mass executions and has spent more time under house arrest likely then free.

I foyu look at his history he can easily be called a n opportunist.

Not saying this isn't important for the protesters as he does have clout(why he's still breathing)..just saying its not that important or surprising, he's not what the article seems to imply, he has no role in the government and hasn't for 20 or so years.


Look it up if you don't believe me....

Triad said:

MLK succeeded because of politicians passing laws supporting his effort. Iranians have no support like that.
Ghandi succeeded because of armed revolts against the British for decades but more importantly because of the Japanese and WWII.

Neither man would have succeeded without inside help or ousted forces.
If the Iranians try to do that then they should go home now..before they get re-educated like the Chinese where.

................................

I've still seen nothing that shows this is going to be anything more then similar to the 1999 and 2003 protests..both lasted about 10 days before both fading away and being put down.



1989 was 20 years ago.. I saw the same naive stuff about the Chinese as I am seeing here. Hopefully it will not end the same way..BUT if it does it will be a much needed education for some.

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I don't think that we can predict with any certainty how this is going to play out. One of the major problems is that the US has historically been very very wrong about the internal politics in Iran.

The Iranian protersters have a much wider base to this protest then they did in 1999 and 2003. AND this time, it's even among the clerics and military. There are lots of reports out there (unconfirmed at this point) about arrests among the elite Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard. One report has 12 arrested, another has 16. There's also tons of reports of the military refusing to fire at the protesters, thus the need for the militia. Again, it's unconfirmed, but it does add up. If that's true, then the power base of the Ayotollah may be crumbling......

Kandahar said:

Yes they do. The reformers have many powerful allies in the government and clergy. They should take advantage of that and lean heavily on those leaders to take down Khamenei and bring about democracy, instead of shunning them for not being ideal leaders.

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Sure they do...:doh

Catz Part Deux said:

It appears that there are some possible defections from the Republican Guard. There are reports that over a dozen senior officers were arrested by the Amini regime today for possibly going over to the protesters.

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That was reported yesterday as well....

Caine said:

And this is exactly what crossed my mind when I saw these examples posted.

Kudos to the "resistance" members who are doing this, it definately shows them in a respectable light.

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There are reports that the military is refusing to fire on the protesters which means two things:
1. Explains the need for the militia, who are shooting and;
2. Explains why there hasn't been a swift, military response.

Triad said:

what?

Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri is not a "senior Ayatollah" he;s not even in the government.

He was kicked out by Khomenie in the late 80's for publicly criticizing mass executions and has spent more time under house arrest likely then free.

I foyu look at his history he can easily be called a n opportunist.

Not saying this isn't important for the protesters as he does have clout(why he's still breathing)..just saying its not that important or surprising, he's not what the article seems to imply, he has no role in the government and hasn't for 20 or so years.


Look it up if you don't believe me....

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I did, before I posted, but, here ya go.


FYI, from Wiki: Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri (Persian: حسین علی منتظری), styled His Honourable Eminence, (born in 1922), was one of the leaders of the Islamic Revolution in Iran. He is best known as the one-time designated successor to the revolution's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khomeini who fell out with Khomeini in 1989 over government policies that Montazeri claimed infringed on freedom and denied people's rights. He currently lives in the holy city of Qom, and remains politically influential in Iran, especially upon reformist politics.[1] Montazeri is a senior Islamic scholar and a grand marja (religious authority) of Islam.

For almost three decades, Hossein Ali Montazeri has been one of the main critics of Islamic Republic's domestic and foreign policy. He has also been an active advocate of civil rights and women's rights in Iran. He is a prolific writer and has authored a number of books and articles.

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Triad said:

Sure they do...:doh

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An excellent, well-thought-out rebuttal to my point. You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters. Quite the pinnacle of intellect, you are.

He's special.

Please? Can we do without snide? Just for this one thread, I promise!

NDNdancer said:

I don't think that we can predict with any certainty how this is going to play out. One of the major problems is that the US has historically been very very wrong about the internal politics in Iran.

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Well yeah... who knows what will happen for sure.

The Iranian protersters have a much wider base to this protest then they did in 1999 and 2003. AND this time, it's even among the clerics and military. There are lots of reports out there (unconfirmed at this point) about arrests among the elite Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guard. One report has 12 arrested, another has 16. There's also tons of reports of the military refusing to fire at the protesters, thus the need for the militia. Again, it's unconfirmed, but it does add up. If that's true, then the power base of the Ayotollah may be crumbling......

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Are you sure they have a wider base or does it just seems that way because of the way the media is framing the story. So far 99.9% of all reports, videos, etc have been form Tehran. Its is the capital but its one city and rather known for "protests" (ie 1999 etc.) usually propelled by students.


One long standing anti-government Cleric and unconfirmed reports of a few soldiers maybe being arrested along with other claims of unrest that nobody can confirm doesn't mean much. I'm sure you have seen protests against governments before...they all have these stories.

I hope it is the end..I hope their is a coup or civil war to remove the theocracy..what I see now though isn't ever going to do that.

IMO this will fizzle out ..BUT if it doesn't then the day the troops move in to put them down is their day of decision. The can either pick up that gun or they best go home.

Kandahar said:

No no no no nooooooo

That would be the absolute worst thing that we could possibly do. The Iranian regime is looking for a pretext to clobber the protesters, but it can't easily manufacture one without many members of the police and military refusing to obey and/or defecting to join the protesters.

Furthermore, if the Iranians decide to topple their government it won't be through a prolonged civil war. It will be through some kind of revolution. Whether it's peaceful like Czechoslovakia or bloody like Romania remains to be seen...but in neither case would it do any good to funnel arms to them.

For one thing, there has been little indication that the protesters would even welcome American involvement. For another thing, we have no way of getting massive stockpiles of weapons to protesters. For another thing, we don't even know who they are. For another thing, if we gave them to any "big name" protest figures to distribute, they would immediately be arrested. For another thing, the timeline of a potential revolution is much shorter than the timeline of our weapons supply chain. By the time the weapons got there, the government would already be overthrown or the protest would be crushed. And finally, if Iran's government DOES manage to survive (which is still more likely than not) we would be much better off if we had not just funded an armed insurrection against it.

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It would not be the worst thing we could do. Not at all. I don't know what you believe is happening here. This nation is in revolt of a government that the majority of the free world has identified as an oppressive, extremist, theocratic dictatorship that supports not only terrorism, but is pursuing nuclear weapons while at the same time proliferating the idea that Israel should or will be wiped off the map.

Arming this opposition movement would be far from the worst thing we could do. Are they only worth supporting if they can take their country back through peaceful means? Do we lose some political ammunition if these folks aren't getting gunned down with no practical way to fight back?

I don't know about you, but I want the Guardian Council and Ahmadinejad deposed, I want them struck from power, and if it takes funneling 50,000 assault rifles and 3,000 RPG's to them, well let me help load the trucks.

This isn't a romantic endeavor by the people of Iran, this is a bloody, violent uprising to three decades of dictatorial oppression. I never said we need to sponsor a "civil war." I said we should support this uprising. Arms and information are what these people need, not just good will and Twitter.

talloulou said:

Talk about getting caught up in the excitement and carried away.:shock:

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:roll:

NDNdancer said:

I did, before I posted, but, here ya go.


FYI, from Wiki: Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Scroll down a lil in that and?
There he is being kicked out and lucky to be alive.

Triad said:

Well yeah... who knows what will happen for sure.



Are you sure they have a wider base or does it just seems that way because of the way the media is framing the story. So far 99.9% of all reports, videos, etc have been form Tehran. Its is the capital but its one city and rather known for "protests" (ie 1999 etc.) usually propelled by students.


One long standing anti-government Cleric and unconfirmed reports of a few soldiers maybe being arrested along with other claims of unrest that nobody can confirm doesn't mean much. I'm sure you have seen protests against governments before...they all have these stories.

I hope it is the end..I hope their is a coup or civil war to remove the theocracy..what I see now though isn't ever going to do that.

IMO this will fizzle out ..BUT if it doesn't then the day the troops move in to put them down is their day of decision. The can either pick up that gun or they best go home.

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It's more then just students backed by clerics this time. It's students, academics, professionals, workers, clerics..... and now, even some of the elite Guard and military, maybe. Those reports have been going around for a couple of days now, not just one, but several times and it makes sense and explains the use of the militia which I thought was odd.

It may not be enough to take over, but it is certainly enough to make the mullahs and Ayotollah take notice. If they lose the army, they've lost the power to effectively stop the protesters.

Sometimes revolutions take decades....

Lerxst said:

It would not be the worst thing we could do. Not at all. I don't know what you believe is happening here. This nation is in revolt of a government

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So far we have seen some mass protests and some internal dissent among the clerics, but nothing approaching open revolt yet. Every time something like this happens in a dictatorship, the Western media is quick to label the protests as on the verge of a full-scale revolution. But the revolution rarely comes. For recent examples of this, see how the Western media has covered protests in Burma and Zimbabwe. That's not to say that it's impossible (in fact, I would agree that Iran is more primed for revolution than either of those countries)...but the odds are still against it.

Lerxst said:

that the majority fo the free world has identified as an oppressive, extremist, theocratic dictatorship that supports not only terrorism, but is pursuing nuclear weapons while at the same time proliferating the idea that Israel should or will be wiped off the map.

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Those things aren't really relevant to Iran's internal politics, or how likely it is that the reformers will succeed.

Lerxst said:

Arming this opposition movement would be far from the worst thing we could do. Are they only worth supporting if they can take their country back through peaceful means? Do we lose some political ammunition if these folks aren't getting gunned down with no practical way to fight back?

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I question the logistics of your plan. How can we get hundreds of thousands of weapons into Iran over the span of the next couple weeks while the anger is still at its peak...and how we can distribute them solely to the protesters rather than government sympathizers? It isn't as easy as flying a helicopter over Tehran and dropping some weapons into the crowd.

Ahmadinejad and Khamenei desperately want to crack down on the protests by calling them an American conspiracy...but the police and Guardsmen know that it isn't true, and most of them are (so far) refusing to fire on the protesters. Why would we want to make their charges true?

Lerxst said:

I don't know about you, but I want the Guardian Council and Ahmadinejad deposed, I want them struck from power, and if it takes funneling 50,000 assault rifles and 3,000 RPG's to them, well let me help load the trucks.

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Again, I question how you are going to get the weapons into the hands of the protesters in the length of time it would take for them to actually be effective. And I would question why you would want to tempt fate since if it comes down to a battle of firepower, the government would easily crush the protesters.

Lerxst said:

This isn't a romantic endeavor by the people of Iran, this is a bloody, violent uprising to three decades of dictatorial oppression.

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So far it is nothing of the kind. I think YOU are making this into a more romantic endeavor than it actually is at the present time.

Lerxst said:

I never said we need to sponsor a "civil war." I said we should support this uprising. Arms and information are what these people need, not just good will and Twitter.

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Arms - There is simply no way that we can effectively get arms to the protesters right now. This is impossible.

Information - The protesters on the ground in Iran almost certainly know more about the situation than our government does. If there is any information sharing, it would be Iranian dissidents sharing information with the US government...not the other way around.

Triad said:

Scroll down a lil in that and?
There he is being kicked out and lucky to be alive.

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Actually, BECAUSE of why he's been in trouble and WHO he is, a Grand Ayatollah and a leader in the Islamic revolution, he's beloved among the opposition and still has considerable power. Once you attain his level within the religious clergy, it's very hard to discount their words, unless they're deemed traitors or something else.

It would be like a Bishop in the Catholic Church who was an advocate for gay marriage, abortion and female priests..... lol.....

Well, maybe that goes to far, but I'm sure you get my drift...

Lerxst said:

It would not be the worst thing we could do. Not at all. I don't know what you believe is happening here. This nation is in revolt of a government that the majority of the free world has identified as an oppressive, extremist, theocratic dictatorship that supports not only terrorism, but is pursuing nuclear weapons while at the same time proliferating the idea that Israel should or will be wiped off the map.

Arming this opposition movement would be far from the worst thing we could do. Are they only worth supporting if they can take their country back through peaceful means? Do we lose some political ammunition if these folks aren't getting gunned down with no practical way to fight back?

I don't know about you, but I want the Guardian Council and Ahmadinejad deposed, I want them struck from power, and if it takes funneling 50,000 assault rifles and 3,000 RPG's to them, well let me help load the trucks.

This isn't a romantic endeavor by the people of Iran, this is a bloody, violent uprising to three decades of dictatorial oppression. I never said we need to sponsor a "civil war." I said we should support this uprising. Arms and information are what these people need, not just good will and Twitter.

:roll:

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You feeling ok?

NDNdancer said:

It's more then just students backed by clerics this time. It's students, academics, professionals, workers, clerics..... and now, even some of the elite Guard and military, maybe. Those reports have been going around for a couple of days now, not just one, but several times and it makes sense and explains the use of the militia which I thought was odd.

It may not be enough to take over, but it is certainly enough to make the mullahs and Ayotollah take notice. If they lose the army, they've lost the power to effectively stop the protesters.

Sometimes revolutions take decades....

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Maybe.... but its that "even maybe" you stated which makes all the difference.

Lerxst said:

It would not be the worst thing we could do. Not at all. I don't know what you believe is happening here. This nation is in revolt of a government that the majority of the free world has identified as an oppressive, extremist, theocratic dictatorship that supports not only terrorism, but is pursuing nuclear weapons while at the same time proliferating the idea that Israel should or will be wiped off the map.

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It is the worst thing we could do. Iran is on the edge of rebellion and may very well already be there (when you distill all the Tweets and news reports, the quantity of hard facts is still frustratingly small, making any firm conclusions about the state of things in Iran tenuous at best), but it is Iranian people rising up against Iranian government. This is an Iranian matter entirely, and every foreign nation should park its happy ass on the sidelines.

What you are suggesting is directed regime change, and, as hostile and dangerous as the Islamic Republic could be as a nuclear state, the case for regime change just isn't there. Khameni is a lot of things, but a Shi'ite Saddam Hussein is not one of them.

Lerxst said:

Arming this opposition movement would be far from the worst thing we could do. Are they only worth supporting if they can take their country back through peaceful means? Do we lose some political ammunition if these folks aren't getting gunned down with no practical way to fight back?

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Arming the opposition would undermine their legitimacy as a native Iranian movement. Giving them US weapons and US material support, especially at this early stage, only makes the opposition another tool of the Great Satan; that's hardly a ringing endorsement for a revolution.

Lerxst said:

I don't know about you, but I want the Guardian Council and Ahmadinejad deposed, I want them struck from power, and if it takes funneling 50,000 assault rifles and 3,000 RPG's to them, well let me help load the trucks.

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Dude, stand down and try thinking for a change. You don't even know who the real players are or where they stand. Rafsanjani is more or less a moderate, but he's not the only mullah out there, and there's no guarantee him and Moussavi will be in control when the shooting is done. Not only do you not know if you'd be backing the winning horse, you don't even know if you'd be backing the right horse.

Lerxst said:

This isn't a romantic endeavor by the people of Iran, this is a bloody, violent uprising to three decades of dictatorial oppression. I never said we need to sponsor a "civil war." I said we should support this uprising. Arms and information are what these people need, not just good will and Twitter.

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Arming one side of a factional protest is exactly what sponsoring a civil war is. We don't need to be sending any arms to Iran, and the necessary information flow is out of Iran, not into it. The only message the protesters need to know is that the United States and the rest of the free world will be happy to shake their hand when they raise a flag of freedom over Tehran, and in the meantime, we wish them good luck and good hunting.

NDNdancer said:

Actually, BECAUSE of why he's been in trouble and WHO he is, a Grand Ayatollah and a leader in the Islamic revolution, he's beloved among the opposition and still has considerable power. Once you attain his level within the religious clergy, it's very hard to discount their words, unless they're deemed traitors or something else.

It would be like a Bishop in the Catholic Church who was an advocate for gay marriage, abortion and female priests..... lol.....

Well, maybe that goes to far, but I'm sure you get my drift...

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Yeah I said as much.




The article propels him farther though.
It implies he is the 'senior' ayatollah in Iran (thats pretty much the headline as well as the article) when hes' not even senior anything..well maybe senior PITA

The senior cleric/ayatollah in Iran is Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei.



Since nobody has done this..here---


Irans government structure ..well its basics.

1. Supreme Leader/Ayatollah- appointed by Assembly of Experts. Contorls military police etc.
2. President-candidates approved by Guardian Council and Ayatollah.
2. Parliament-all candidates approved by Guardian Council.
3. Judiciary-head appointed by Ayatollah.
4. Expediency Council-mends disputes between Guardian Council and Parliament. Administrators basically. Appointed by Ayatollah.
5 Guardian Council. 12 member 6 appointed by ayatollah 6 appointed by legislator.
6. Assembly of Experts. All candidates approved by Guardian Council. It choses who will be ayatollah when one dies ..its other role is oversite but it has never publicly said anything abut either Ayatollah AND all its records etc are state secrets.


Alot of compartments come with facades of Democracy but all set up facilitate the Theocratic Dictatorship that is Iran.

Triad said:

Yeah I said as much.




The article propels him farther though.
It implies he is the 'senior' ayatollah in Iran (thats pretty much the headline as well as the article) when hes' not even senior anything..well maybe senior PITA

The senior cleric/ayatollah in Iran is Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei.

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Ah, gotcha. He's senior in terms of time as an ayatollah, I believe. That really does mean something in their culture. It's like "elder" status in my community.