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Riots erupt in Tehran over 'stolen' election

That is my point, I just used the 2000-2001 elections as an example. Stating that there are similarities amongst the election in Iran.

Perhaps.

But selecting a specific election belittles the constant corruption which has an effect on all our elections.

Which was what I was trying to point out.
 
Source: guardian.co.uk

The scale of the fraud committed here is simply astounding.

It's a good thing if they riot. It shows that they want more freedom, democracy. A revolution could bring this, unlike an invasion like in Iraq.

The best thing we could do is to support these rioters.
 
It's a good thing if they riot. It shows that they want more freedom, democracy. A revolution could bring this, unlike an invasion like in Iraq.

The best thing we could do is to support these rioters.

Bub,

Unless international governments gain concrete proof of the massive fraud--which will likely be covered up by Iran's rulers--they will likely be very cautious in their pronouncements. On one hand, they would like the will of Iran's people to be respected. On the other, if they align themselves against the present Iranian government and that government prevails, they may wind up having cut off all negotiating opportunities on the nuclear issue on account of their opposition. Those are difficult trade-offs.

The conservative clerics (Ayatollah Khamenei and the Council of Guardians) and the Ahmadinejad government are ruthless. They won't go quietly.

If Iran's people attempt to bring down the government--via large protests or even violence--one can expect the Revolutionary Guards, secret police, and other security elements to resort to widespread repression and terror. In a "reign of terror" type situation, opposition leaders, student leaders, and others that the regime finds hostile or suspect opposes it will be dealt with severely.

In the end, if the protests continue to spread, as has been reported this evening, the government will probably give an ultimatum and then move to quash the protests.

It is unfortunate that the will of Iran's people will likely be violated and ignored. But the unelected and unaccountable conservative clerics care little about the will of the people. Their major priority is retaining power.

Hence, I don't believe the protests will escalate to the point of a new Iranian revolution, much less one that would bring down the conservative clerics and Ahmadinejad. The risk of such a revolution might increase if the regime acts ruthlessly against peaceful protests leading to widespread deaths and/or injuries. Then, a more explosive situation could be set off.
 
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Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

As I have been saying for years; the mullahs, the ayetoiletbowl, and Aminademonjihad, all need to be removed from power.

As long as Ali Komonkey****er is in control there will be no legitimate government in Iran.

Until a fair election is conducted in Iran, I say hit Iran with the same sanctions I proposed for NK.

We should possibly hit Iran with the same sanctions as North Korea. However, if your only reason is that there is no "legitimate government" in Iran, then we would be forced to have simillar sanctions on countries such as Saudi Arabia, China and even Russia.

You can argue for that, but I think that would be a very bad idea. We can't have a fractoring of the world into its same old West vs Non-West supporting governments. This is another topic though.


I am leaning to supporting an invasion of an unlegitimate nation (especially if the people seem to be supportive of a regime change, possibly in Iran) but as long as we have the forces to carry it out, and the timing is ideal. The problem is that we are currently in Afganistan and Iraq right now, and I don't believe we will have the forces for that type of action.


If anything, strong sanctions should be on nations that harm other nation's sovernighty (sponsor terrorism is an example) and even though Iran is continuing to do that to some degree, it has died down alot.

So I am supportive of the semi-friendlier policy we are leaning towards with Iran now, at least for the present.

-------

I would be curious what anyone would predict if we did invade Iran now and allow a fair ellection. If the country would stick together and terrorism wouldn't increase, then I may support that now. But I have no idea
 
Bub,

Unless international governments gain concrete proof of the massive fraud--which will likely be covered up by Iran's rulers--they will likely be very cautious in their pronouncements. On one hand, they would like the will of Iran's people to be respected. On the other, if they align themselves against the present Iranian government and that government prevails, they may wind up having cut off all negotiating opportunities on the nuclear issue on account of their opposition. Those are difficult trade-offs.

The conservative clerics (Ayatollah Khamenei and the Council of Guardians) and the Ahmadinejad government are ruthless. They won't go quietly.

If Iran's people attempt to bring down the government--via large protests or even violence--one can expect the Revolutionary Guards, secret police, and other security elements to resort to widespread repression and terror. In a "reign of terror" type situation, opposition leaders, student leaders, and others that the regime finds hostile or suspect opposes it will be dealt with severely.

In the end, if the protests continue to spread, as has been reported this evening, the government will probably give an ultimatum and then move to quash the protests.

It is unfortunate that the will of Iran's people will likely be violated and ignored. But the unelected and unaccountable conservative clerics care little about the will of the people. Their major priority is retaining power.

Hence, I don't believe the protests will escalate to the point of a new Iranian revolution, much less one that would bring down the conservative clerics and Ahmadinejad. The risk of such a revolution might increase if the regime acts ruthlessly against peaceful protests leading to widespread deaths and/or injuries. Then, a more explosive situation could be set off.

Those are good points, but I still think that if the actual regime arrived via a revolution, then why coulnd't it be replaced by a "democratic revolution"?

Isn't it what has happened in many countries before?

But you're right, I doubt it could happen today in Iran. I still hope that the current regime will loose a maximum of credibility by reacting unadequately, and that it will bring some positive reforms in the future
 
Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

We should possibly hit Iran with the same sanctions as North Korea. However, if your only reason is that there is no "legitimate government" in Iran, then we would be forced to have simillar sanctions on countries such as Saudi Arabia, China and even Russia.

You can argue for that, but I think that would be a very bad idea. We can't have a fractoring of the world into its same old West vs Non-West supporting governments. This is another topic though.


I am leaning to supporting an invasion of an unlegitimate nation (especially if the people seem to be supportive of a regime change, possibly in Iran) but as long as we have the forces to carry it out, and the timing is ideal. The problem is that we are currently in Afganistan and Iraq right now, and I don't believe we will have the forces for that type of action.


If anything, strong sanctions should be on nations that harm other nation's sovernighty (sponsor terrorism is an example) and even though Iran is continuing to do that to some degree, it has died down alot.

So I am supportive of the semi-friendlier policy we are leaning towards with Iran now, at least for the present.

-------

I would be curious what anyone would predict if we did invade Iran now and allow a fair ellection. If the country would stick together and terrorism wouldn't increase, then I may support that now. But I have no idea
I'm not. We are not the world's policeman, and we should avoid these kinds of foreign entanglements at all costs. Should we support the efforts of the people of Iran to topple their government? Absolutely, but it is ultimately up to them to do so.
 
Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

We should possibly hit Iran with the same sanctions as North Korea. However, if your only reason is that there is no "legitimate government" in Iran, then we would be forced to have simillar sanctions on countries such as Saudi Arabia, China and even Russia.

You can argue for that, but I think that would be a very bad idea. We can't have a fractoring of the world into its same old West vs Non-West supporting governments. This is another topic though.


I am leaning to supporting an invasion of an unlegitimate nation (especially if the people seem to be supportive of a regime change, possibly in Iran) but as long as we have the forces to carry it out, and the timing is ideal. The problem is that we are currently in Afganistan and Iraq right now, and I don't believe we will have the forces for that type of action.


If anything, strong sanctions should be on nations that harm other nation's sovernighty (sponsor terrorism is an example) and even though Iran is continuing to do that to some degree, it has died down alot.

So I am supportive of the semi-friendlier policy we are leaning towards with Iran now, at least for the present.

-------

I would be curious what anyone would predict if we did invade Iran now and allow a fair ellection. If the country would stick together and terrorism wouldn't increase, then I may support that now. But I have no idea

I have to agree with you about the fact that Russia, China, and Suadi Arabia do not have legitimate government. Yet you will not hear the NEOCONS complain about those countries.
 
Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

I have to agree with you about the fact that Russia, China, and Suadi Arabia do not have legitimate government. Yet you will not hear the NEOCONS complain about those countries.

It took 5 posts for this thread to spiral into partisan hackery.

Thank you sir.
 
Bub,

Unless international governments gain concrete proof of the massive fraud--which will likely be covered up by Iran's rulers--they will likely be very cautious in their pronouncements. On one hand, they would like the will of Iran's people to be respected. On the other, if they align themselves against the present Iranian government and that government prevails, they may wind up having cut off all negotiating opportunities on the nuclear issue on account of their opposition. Those are difficult trade-offs.

The conservative clerics (Ayatollah Khamenei and the Council of Guardians) and the Ahmadinejad government are ruthless. They won't go quietly.

If Iran's people attempt to bring down the government--via large protests or even violence--one can expect the Revolutionary Guards, secret police, and other security elements to resort to widespread repression and terror. In a "reign of terror" type situation, opposition leaders, student leaders, and others that the regime finds hostile or suspect opposes it will be dealt with severely.

In the end, if the protests continue to spread, as has been reported this evening, the government will probably give an ultimatum and then move to quash the protests.

It is unfortunate that the will of Iran's people will likely be violated and ignored. But the unelected and unaccountable conservative clerics care little about the will of the people. Their major priority is retaining power.

Hence, I don't believe the protests will escalate to the point of a new Iranian revolution, much less one that would bring down the conservative clerics and Ahmadinejad. The risk of such a revolution might increase if the regime acts ruthlessly against peaceful protests leading to widespread deaths and/or injuries. Then, a more explosive situation could be set off.


Unfortunately ALOT of people (IMO esp on the Left) do not want to accept that reality because the issue of Iran nuclear program has pushed them into a corner. With only one realistic out anytime soon.


Those are good points, but I still think that if the actual regime arrived via a revolution, then why coulnd't it be replaced by a "democratic revolution"?

Isn't it what has happened in many countries before?

But you're right, I doubt it could happen today in Iran. I still hope that the current regime will loose a maximum of credibility by reacting unadequately, and that it will bring some positive reforms in the future

Right now if there was any sort of revolt it would fail badly.
The military is not fractured as it was at the end of the Shah...and the military(or someone with military backing) is about the only power who could rule effectively.

On the otherhand a military led overthrow would be better then having the theocracy that is now.
 
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Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

It took 5 posts for this thread to spiral into partisan hackery.

Thank you sir.

I don't think that you know of what you speak! NEOCONS are not a party. In order for a statement to be partisan it must attack or be critical of a party and not just be critical a party's position.

Furhermore to be partisan one must attack another party just for becaue the other party is not your party.

Where did I do that?
 
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Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

You really have to like the way the Mullahs had the election count done by just after midnight and only hours after the 'polls' closed and they do not have one mechanical much less electronic voting machine in the entire country. So the Mullahs mulled over the count for a few minutes and declared the bad guy the winne by 2:1 margin.

Ya gotta love them Mullah guys.
 
Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

We should possibly hit Iran with the same sanctions as North Korea. However, if your only reason is that there is no "legitimate government" in Iran, then we would be forced to have simillar sanctions on countries such as Saudi Arabia, China and even Russia.

You can argue for that, but I think that would be a very bad idea. We can't have a fractoring of the world into its same old West vs Non-West supporting governments. This is another topic though.


I am leaning to supporting an invasion of an unlegitimate nation (especially if the people seem to be supportive of a regime change, possibly in Iran) but as long as we have the forces to carry it out, and the timing is ideal. The problem is that we are currently in Afganistan and Iraq right now, and I don't believe we will have the forces for that type of action.


If anything, strong sanctions should be on nations that harm other nation's sovernighty (sponsor terrorism is an example) and even though Iran is continuing to do that to some degree, it has died down alot.

So I am supportive of the semi-friendlier policy we are leaning towards with Iran now, at least for the present.

-------

I would be curious what anyone would predict if we did invade Iran now and allow a fair ellection. If the country would stick together and terrorism wouldn't increase, then I may support that now. But I have no idea

We have tried to be friendly and we have tried to work things out. Aminajackoff and his terrorist buddies are not interested in peace. They are interested in supporting terrorism and the destruction of Israel.

Aminajackoff, The Ayetolietbowl, and the mullah-whores have fixed an election. This is UNACCEPTABLE. The Ayetoiletbowl is a terrorist asshole, the mullahs are little more than a corrupt group of religious gangsters, and the government of Iran is a relic that needs to be smashed into a thousand pieces and then replaced with a modern government that suits the people of Iran.
 
Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

You really have to like the way the Mullahs had the election count done by just after midnight and only hours after the 'polls' closed and they do not have one mechanical much less electronic voting machine in the entire country. So the Mullahs mulled over the count for a few minutes and declared the bad guy the winne by 2:1 margin.

Ya gotta love them Mullah guys.

I would love it if they were removed from power and then tarred and feathered in a public square.
 
It is unfortunate and shameful, but I am not in the least astounded or surprised.

Nor am I.

I did not expect honesty from the world's leading sponsor of terrorism.
 
Those are good points, but I still think that if the actual regime arrived via a revolution, then why coulnd't it be replaced by a "democratic revolution"?

Isn't it what has happened in many countries before?

But you're right, I doubt it could happen today in Iran. I still hope that the current regime will loose a maximum of credibility by reacting unadequately, and that it will bring some positive reforms in the future

For that to work there would need to be a military base supporting the civilian population. As it stands, the military supports aminajackoff and his whacko terrorist buddies.

EXTREME PRESSURE needs to be placed on Iran's governing terrorists. It's time for the Ayetolietbowl to be removed from power. It is time for the Mullahs to be removed from office and it is time for terrorist-boy Aminajackoff to be permanently committed to an insane asylum.
 
Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

As Americans, we should support and encourage the overthrow of Iran's tyrants. My best wishes go out to the Iranian people. May they one day prevail, and soon.

As Americans, we should do no more than the support the right of Iranians to the government of their choice. The Islamic Republic was installed by the popular will of the Iranian people 30 years ago, and if it is to be toppled, it will be again by the popular will of the Iranian people.

America especially should not be seen meddling in Iran's internal politics. Iran is a sovereign nation and we should respect their right to work out their own political issues.
 
Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

As Americans, we should do no more than the support the right of Iranians to the government of their choice. The Islamic Republic was installed by the popular will of the Iranian people 30 years ago, and if it is to be toppled, it will be again by the popular will of the Iranian people.

America especially should not be seen meddling in Iran's internal politics. Iran is a sovereign nation and we should respect their right to work out their own political issues.

You and I are in total agreement on that.
 
Re: Mousavi Arrested Protest Mounts

Does anyone have a credible source about this arrest of Mousavi ? I just don't buy anything that Isaeli sources have to say about Iran.

lol Ha'aretz is the NYT's of Israel. They have many an anti-Israeli story. Israel has a free press.
 
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Re: Reports: Turmoil grips Iran as reform candidate arrested

This link is in Farsi:

This link is a post from "respected" Ayatollahs in Iran, who are calling for new elections and asking the people not to provoke the "government agents".

There is still hope that this election is going to be invalidated, and a new election called. They Mullahs are afraid, and that is a very good sign. Pressure from the people may yet result in real change in Iran.

The Government "Protector of Votes" has also called for a new election
. This link is also in Farsi.

I have sent a PM to Perham, who should be able to translate these links, as he lives in Teheran.
 
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Re: Mousavi Arrested Protest Mounts

Even as the questions over the results of the election continue and arrests of some of Mousavi's supporters are being reported there seem to be no mainstream or independent evidence that Mausavi himself has been detained.
From what I have been able to gather he is in seclusion issuing statements via the internet. There are some opinion blogs questioning the wisdom of election protests in the face of deaths and arrests.
 
With respect to the ruthlessness of the Iranian regime, The Sunday Times reported:

Iran's hardline leaders warned last night that they would crush dissent after opposition supporters protesting against their candidate’s defeat in disputed presidential elections clashed with riot police on the streets of Tehran...

Clashes continued late into the night and fires of rubbish burnt as thousands of militiamen armed with knives and truncheons swarmed through the city in motorcycle packs of about 20. Lorries laden with riot police roamed the streets.


Finally, the newspaper also revealed that a private poll had indicated that Mousavi would win 58% of the vote.
 
Re: Mousavi Arrested Protest Mounts

lol Ha'aretz is the NYT's of Israel. They have many an anti-Israeli story. Israel has a free press.

I would hope that their storeis be neither pro nor anti-Israeli but the facts.

If Mousavi was arrested by the Mullah mafia I think that in the long run this will come back to bite the Hullah Mullahs in the backside of their robes. Such an act is political foolishness in the long run.

Look at all of the scum bucket countries and empires that surpressed freedoms of their pple - USSR, ETC ventually the scum buckets lose.
 
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