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Obama declares that it's time to fix health care

Shep Dawg said:
GREEN BAY, Wis. - Surrounded by supportive citizens in the heartland, President Barack Obama challenged lawmakers back in Washington who criticize his proposed health care overhaul. "What's the alternative?" he said Thursday.


What is the alternative?
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Buy a private policy...assuming you even want coverage.

That's it. Pretty easy.

If the government feels that it wants to help, it can offer a tax credit.
 
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I'm still waiting for one example of government making something actually cheaper. Government has had the chance for thousands of years. If they haven't done it by now I'm not going to start trusting this.
 
WI Crippler said:
What would benefit President Obama's healthcare reform agenda, is if he could prove his ideas would work, by fixing Medicare/Medicaid issues first.
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And yet NO ONE is talking about this looming disaster on the horizon while they talk about spending another $1.2 trillion they do not have and work on plans to increase EVERYONE's taxes by TAXING the employed health care benefits as income.

Yep folks, they have only been in power for six months and the criminal like spending continues without a SINGLE debate about how to pay for it all.

The only thing MORE laughable about this moron "post turtle" is his speech about pay-go.

Hang on people, get the KY out and bend over; the Democrats are in charge! :rofl
 
Truth Detector said:
Wrong; healthcare will get fixed by allowing MORE competition and removing idiotic regulations that make healthcare EXPENSIVE. One example would be California's requirement of forcing hospitals to provide care to illegal aliens.

:2wave:
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Healthcare prices are regulated by insurance companies on the cap they are willing to pay, which is significantly higher then 99% of the country can pay. This make the populace dependent on insurance companies to have health care. How exactly can their be competition in a non free market?

What does illegal aliens have to do with my doctor charging $8k for a 10 minute procedure?
 
Gibberish said:
Healthcare prices are regulated by insurance companies on the cap they are willing to pay, which is significantly higher then 99% of the country can pay. This make the populace dependent on insurance companies to have health care. How exactly can their be competition in a non free market?

What does illegal aliens have to do with my doctor charging $8k for a 10 minute procedure?
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A medical union which is the only institution that can give out medical licenses tends to make prices much more expensive than they otherwise would be. It's not a free monopoly, it's a government-sanctioned monopoly. HUGE difference.
 
Gibberish said:
Healthcare prices are regulated by insurance companies on the cap they are willing to pay, which is significantly higher then 99% of the country can pay. This make the populace dependent on insurance companies to have health care. How exactly can their be competition in a non free market?

What does illegal aliens have to do with my doctor charging $8k for a 10 minute procedure?
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Healthcare prices are not regulated. :roll: They are set by the health care providers and insurance companies negotiate with selected providers for GROUP rates.

You spew a lot of hyperbole with little to support your farcical claims that they charge prices 99% cannot afford to pay.

But it is equally farcical to support the idea that when Government gets involved in ANYTHING prices go down; whenever Government gets involved the costs to do business go up across the board.

States increase the costs to get health care by actually limiting the companies that can do business in the State with their burdensom regulations.

Like I stated, the FACT is that healthcare costs go down when there is MORE comptetition, LESS government intervention, if we implement tort reform to bring down the cost of liability and if people actually controlled paying for their health care and were actually engaged by seeing the bills before payments were paid.

Unfortunately our education system is pumping out complete ignoramuses who couldn't read a bill or a contract if their lives depended on it and think that being a WARD of the State is the best alternative.

It begs the question; why do you so desperately want to be a ward of the Government?
 
WillRockwell said:
The cost of a broken leg is around $50,000
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Apparently, you cannot read.
I've always suspected that, but now its been confirmed.

Citing a CURRENT cost does nothing to counter the argument that free-market competition brought about by the elimination of third-party payees will bring costs down.
 
I just looked up some health insurance quotes for a family of four. The highest monthly rate was approximately $400; that's $4,800 a year. [1] The household median income of 2007 was $50,233. [2] So, in order to insure their family most Americans need to spend around ten percent of their income per year, and that's assuming they purchase the premium coverage plans.

If you cannot afford to dispense with ten percent of your yearly income in order to ensure your family's health is protected then you need to do some budgeting, plain and simple. No more fast-food, no more brand-name clothing, no more entertainment systems, etc.

The only problem America has in regards to health insurance is our collective inability to manage money with frugality. A massive over-reliance on credit and worthless material possessions is the only reason so many people find themselves uninsured. It's not THAT expensive, especially when one considers the importance of health care. Personal responsibility, self-reliance, less government, these things will trend the cost of health insurance and health care downward, but that would be difficult or hard so, obviously, that’s not an option…

[1] - Message
[2] - US Census Press Releases
 
Don't Tase Me Bro said:
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$15 a month? That's it? That's pretty darn cheap, so what's the problem?.
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Sorry,typo $15K per month.




Don't Tase Me Bro said:
Of course I have read it. What's telling is that you haven't and yet you sit there throwing out quotes and numbers from a report that you have never read, analyzed, or verified.

I should not have to point out all of the facts I did to someone as opinionated on this subject as you appear to be. You should have done your own research before just blindly accepting the statistics from some report you've heard others talk about.
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Dude !!! I cited the sources of info I have. I didn't paraphrase them, I cut and pasted info from their report. I was hardly suggesting that they were they utmost worlds authority. In fact, I asked for your reference, and even said they could be wrong, anything is possible. I asked for an alternative solution. Hardly the position of someone being super opinionated on the subject. I cited W.H.O., and asked if you had anything to contradict them. You provided you argument, as asked. Why the attitude?

I will take some more time to re-evaluate all the data in the W.H.O report and research your source as well. Thank you for an opposing view, but again, Why the attitude?

C'mon man, Don't tase me bro.:2wave:
 
Truth Detector said:
Healthcare prices are not regulated. :roll: They are set by the health care providers and insurance companies negotiate with selected providers for GROUP rates.
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That's the problem. They are set by the health care providers and insurance companies, not on what the Consumer can afford, but on what the large insurance companies can afford. Prices go higher the more the insurance company can afford and thus forcing more customers into the insurance company (which gives them more profits).

Truth Detector said:
You spew a lot of hyperbole with little to support your farcical claims that they charge prices 99% cannot afford to pay.
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How many people can afford $25k for a simple child birth? (My son was born 5 weeks ago and that is the total bill before insurance paid the great majority).

Truth Detector said:
But it is equally farcical to support the idea that when Government gets involved in ANYTHING prices go down; whenever Government gets involved the costs to do business go up across the board.
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Yes it is. Which is why I don't support this idea. :confused:

Truth Detector said:
States increase the costs to get health care by actually limiting the companies that can do business in the State with their burdensom regulations.
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Really? We have 3 different hospitals (owned by different companies) in a 25 mile radius and 5 different clinics. I don't see a problem with medical competition. I see a problem with price competition. WHich is not at the state level but at the health care and insurance partnership level.

Truth Detector said:
Like I stated, the FACT is that healthcare costs go down when there is MORE comptetition, LESS government intervention, if we implement tort reform to bring down the cost of liability and if people actually controlled paying for their health care and were actually engaged by seeing the bills before payments were paid.
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LESS insurance price inflation will make health care costs go down along with competition. It doesn't matter if there are 2 doctors or 20 doctors in your area if they are all charging an insurance company exorbitant fees for their service. Prices will not decline until the CONSUMER starts shopping around for medical services. Like they do in the cosmetic surgery industry. Currently the consumer doesn't care because they always pay roughly the same since Insurance covers the great majority of costs.

Truth Detector said:
Unfortunately our education system is pumping out complete ignoramuses who couldn't read a bill or a contract if their lives depended on it and think that being a WARD of the State is the best alternative.

It begs the question; why do you so desperately want to be a ward of the Government?
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Please show where I desperately want to be a ward of Government and I'll answer your question.
 
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phattonez said:
A medical union which is the only institution that can give out medical licenses tends to make prices much more expensive than they otherwise would be. It's not a free monopoly, it's a government-sanctioned monopoly. HUGE difference.
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The medical union, in conjunction with insurance companies, makes prices more expensive so that the doctor's get as much money as they can from the insurance companies and insurance companies can generate as many customers as they can for profits.

Eliminate insurance companies (for the majority of medical services) and prices will drop to levels dictated by the consumer free market.
 
Gibberish said:
The medical union, in conjunction with insurance companies, makes prices more expensive so that the doctor's get as much money as they can from the insurance companies and insurance companies can generate as many customers as they can for profits.

Eliminate insurance companies (for the majority of medical services) and prices will drop to levels dictated by the consumer free market.
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We can just leave insurance companies alone. They'll figure out what's best when government intrustion is forfeited. Same with the AMA. Stop the support of the AMA and we'll get more realistic prices. Sure, the AMA will still exist, but then we will have other doctors.
 
Shep Dawg said:
-the U.S. ranks around 29th in the world in infant mortality rates.
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The U.S. calculates their infant mortality rates different than a lot of the rest of the world.

Shep Dawg said:
-The U.S. ranks around 41st in life expectancy
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We have a lot of immigrants that have been exposed to less than healthy life styles.

Shep Dawg said:
- The U.S. health care system ranks around 37th according to W.H.O.
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The W.H.O. ranks health care based on who does and does not have goverment health care.

No doubt we will never be #1 no matter what we do.

Shep Dawg said:
-The U.S. spends the highest percentage of their GDP on health care costs of any country in the world according to WHO
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If you want your health care now you pay more for it, unless of course you want to die waiting for services because its cheaper.

Shep Dawg said:
Do I need to provide links, or are you aware of these rankings?

This in addition to what I posted earlier are why I say our current health care system is broken.
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Most of us are aware of them, we are aware that they don't apply.
 
Shep Dawg said:
Sorry,typo $15K per month.
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Oh OK. I was going to say $15 a month? I would like the number of your provider.


Dude !!! I cited the sources of info I have. I didn't paraphrase them, I cut and pasted info from their report. I was hardly suggesting that they were they utmost worlds authority. In fact, I asked for your reference, and even said they could be wrong, anything is possible. I asked for an alternative solution. Hardly the position of someone being super opinionated on the subject. I cited W.H.O., and asked if you had anything to contradict them. You provided you argument, as asked. Why the attitude?
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No attitude. I'm just very direct, I guess. :wink2:
 
Ethereal said:
I just looked up some health insurance quotes for a family of four. The highest monthly rate was approximately $400; that's $4,800 a year. [1] The household median income of 2007 was $50,233. [2] So, in order to insure their family most Americans need to spend around ten percent of their income per year, and that's assuming they purchase the premium coverage plans.

If you cannot afford to dispense with ten percent of your yearly income in order to ensure your family's health is protected then you need to do some budgeting, plain and simple. No more fast-food, no more brand-name clothing, no more entertainment systems, etc.

The only problem America has in regards to health insurance is our collective inability to manage money with frugality. A massive over-reliance on credit and worthless material possessions is the only reason so many people find themselves uninsured. It's not THAT expensive, especially when one considers the importance of health care. Personal responsibility, self-reliance, less government, these things will trend the cost of health insurance and health care downward, but that would be difficult or hard so, obviously, that’s not an option…

[1] - Message
[2] - US Census Press Releases
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Stop, your not supposed to tell the truth! :2razz:
 
Ethereal said:
I just looked up some health insurance quotes for a family of four. The highest monthly rate was approximately $400; that's $4,800 a year. [1] The household median income of 2007 was $50,233. [2] So, in order to insure their family most Americans need to spend around ten percent of their income per year, and that's assuming they purchase the premium coverage plans.

If you cannot afford to dispense with ten percent of your yearly income in order to ensure your family's health is protected then you need to do some budgeting, plain and simple. No more fast-food, no more brand-name clothing, no more entertainment systems, etc.

The only problem America has in regards to health insurance is our collective inability to manage money with frugality. A massive over-reliance on credit and worthless material possessions is the only reason so many people find themselves uninsured. It's not THAT expensive, especially when one considers the importance of health care. Personal responsibility, self-reliance, less government, these things will trend the cost of health insurance and health care downward, but that would be difficult or hard so, obviously, that’s not an option…

[1] - Message
[2] - US Census Press Releases
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I am curious if that median income figure includes the insurance benefits one typically receives from their employer; my guess is that it doesn't.

But using your point, the reality is that it is indeed about CHOICE; we can CHOOSE to cover ourselves and our families, or we can CHOOSE not to and buy that $5,000.00 TV.

The argument from the Liberals always seems to be that one should NOT have to CHOOSE between the TV and healthcare and that OTHERS should provide for their healthcare so that they can have the TV without making any sacrifice.

NOT having CHOICE is the eventuality of any Socialist solution and I think this is what amazes me the most about Americans; that they would CHOOSE to not have a CHOICE.
 
Say minimum wage is $6.55. That's $262 a week and if you work 45 weeks (that's a lot of vacation) you make $11790. That's for a family of 4 and only one person working full time.
 
Gibberish said:
How many people can afford $25k for a simple child birth? (My son was born 5 weeks ago and that is the total bill before insurance paid the great majority).
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You made my case; how much do you pay for insurance for your family? How much did it actually cost you for your sons birth?

Insurance reduces YOUR burden by spreading the cost among all the members.

Gibberish said:
Please show where I desperately want to be a ward of Government and I'll answer your question.
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I thought the debate was about Government provided care; it was a general comment related to the debate, not claiming that YOU personally believe in it.
 
phattonez said:
Say minimum wage is $6.55. That's $262 a week and if you work 45 weeks (that's a lot of vacation) you make $11790. That's for a family of 4 and only one person working full time.
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Huh? Who is this directed at and what is the point?

I am sorry, when have you EVER seen anyone supporting a family on minimum wage? Unless of course it is an 18 year old high school student who got his girlfriend pregnant and has ZERO work experience and his parents kicked him out; or an illegal alien.
 
Truth Detector said:
You made my case; how much do you pay for insurance for your family? How much did it actually cost you for your sons birth?
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My point was that we are forced dependency on insurance companies. How many of Americans could afford to pay $25k (which is the price due to insurance company inflation) for the birth of each child?

Truth Detector said:
Insurance reduces YOUR burden by spreading the cost among all the members.
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My burden wouldn't need reducing if insurance companies didn't increase the price and thus burden I would incur. This can be taken to lawyers and in some instances the automobile industry. Insurance inflates the cost of everything they touch to enforce consumer dependency.

Truth Detector said:
I thought the debate was about Government provided care; it was a general comment related to the debate, not claiming that YOU personally believe in it.
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Sorry the "You" in "why do you so desperately want to be a ward of the Government?" maybe me think you were speaking to me.
 
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Truth Detector said:
Huh? Who is this directed at and what is the point?

I am sorry, when have you EVER seen anyone supporting a family on minimum wage? Unless of course it is an 18 year old high school student who got his girlfriend pregnant and has ZERO work experience and his parents kicked him out; or an illegal alien.
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I was just stating basically the worst possible scenario. Granted, someone who's making minimum wage should not have kids, but even then the health insurance was not even 50% of his income.

Believe me, I'm on your side on this issue.
 
phattonez said:
I was just stating basically the worst possible scenario. Granted, someone who's making minimum wage should not have kids, but even then the health insurance was not even 50% of his income.

Believe me, I'm on your side on this issue.
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I see that we are on the same page, I was just confused as to what your point was. Thanks for clearing that up. :2wave:
 
Truth Detector said:
I am curious if that median income figure includes the insurance benefits one typically receives from their employer; my guess is that it doesn't.

But using your point, the reality is that it is indeed about CHOICE; we can CHOOSE to cover ourselves and our families, or we can CHOOSE not to and buy that $5,000.00 TV.

The argument from the Liberals always seems to be that one should NOT have to CHOOSE between the TV and healthcare and that OTHERS should provide for their healthcare so that they can have the TV without making any sacrifice.

NOT having CHOICE is the eventuality of any Socialist solution and I think this is what amazes me the most about Americans; that they would CHOOSE to not have a CHOICE.
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The only choice the Left wants anyone to take is to choose to kill your unborn child. That's it. You're not supposed to choose your political view, the Left will tell you want to think, you're not supposed to choose your religion, the Left says we're all socialists now, and that's that, and you're not supposed to choose to be independent, that's a sign of mental illness.

The nation's health care industry comprises roughly 14% of the nation's economy, it makes sense that a family plan would cost roughly 10% of the family's budget.
 
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