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AMA opposes Obama's Health Care plans...

Neither are patients.

The only "debate" should be between doctor and patient.

Everybody else has no stake in the matter and needs to stay the hell out of it.

Government needs to stay out.

Insurance needs to get out.

Everybody.

It is illogical and unreasonable to argue that Insurance should get out of this debate.

Insurance allows people to reduce the potential of disasterous costs by taking risk and spreading it to all it's buyers/members and a much lower cost than it would be for individuals to "self insure." It would be crazy to presume that getting rid of insurance is a GOOD idea.

:roll:
 
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the AMA undermine Truman's plans to reform health care, and then Kennedy's plans to reform health care, and then Clinton's plan to reform health care?

I think it is bizarre to argue that anything the Government does as being "reform." It would be more accurate to call it "cost increasing interference."
 
It is illogical and unreasonable to argue that Insurance should get out of this debate.

Insurance allows people to reduce the potential of disasterous costs by taking risk and spreading it to all it's buyers/members and a much lower cost than it would be for individuals to "self insure." It would be crazy to presume that getting rid of insurance is a GOOD idea.

:roll:

Well, there are some inherent inefficiencies in insurance that need to be dealt with. For example, if you had food insurance, would you buy ground beef or filet mignon? You'd by the filet every time. Of course, if you were buying yourself, you might pick the ground beef since it's cheaper and you can't afford filet every time. So we can see how insurance can throw off the price system.

The solution to me seems to be deductibles and co-pays. This way we feel the price of what we are getting it and are covered in case of an emergency.
 
Obama isn't an economist either; just look at his idiotic policies to date. :roll:

What the AMA knows is that this will indeed lead to Government controlled healthcare and destroy the best medical care systems in the world.

What a joke. If I am driven to an emergency room, they won't even treat me unless I can prove I can pay for it. If they do treat me, it will cost a fortune if I have to stay overnight, thousands if I walk out after treatment. How does that even come close to being "the best medical care systems in the world"?
 
What a joke. If I am driven to an emergency room, they won't even treat me unless I can prove I can pay for it. If they do treat me, it will cost a fortune if I have to stay overnight, thousands if I walk out after treatment. How does that even come close to being "the best medical care systems in the world"?

Why have you earned that? Why do you deserve to have someone come to help you and devote time and resources? What does the doctor and the hospital owe to you?

It seems like you're arguing that you're entitled to medical care. Well why?
 
What a joke. If I am driven to an emergency room, they won't even treat me unless I can prove I can pay for it.
This is a lie. An ER has to treat you, by law.

If they do treat me, it will cost a fortune if I have to stay overnight, thousands if I walk out after treatment.
So?
You expect quality goods and expert services for free?

How does that even come close to being "the best medical care systems in the world"?
How does having to pay for the goods and services you receive preclude this from being the best health care system in the world?
 
You mean that figure of 46 million who are uninsured? Time for some fun facts:
1. 9.7 million are not Americans.
2. 16 million make more than $50,000.
3. 14 million are eligible for government programs.

This leaves only 8 million uninsured, and be sure, these are not CHRONICALLY uninsured. When you look at the data, the people at the bottom rung of society change completely about every 5 years.

Phattonez,

That 16 million may be "free riding," 14 million may be uninformed about eligibility does not mean that they are not uninsured. The reasons for their lacking insurance may differ, but they are uninsured. That lack of insurance imposes an economic cost on society.

And maybe technology is improving in the medical sector more than other industries. Compare the cost of a normal Hepatitis B vaccine. See how that price has changed over the years. I'm sure you'll have fun with that.

There are a wide range of reasons health costs have been rising as fast as they have. Some are beneficial. Some are not. For example, if one sorts through the Bureau of Labor Statistics' productivity data, one finds no information concerning the health care industry at large or institutions such as health care. Productivity data is not kept for that industry. That leaves a large information gap: are costs largely being driven by beneficial developments or a lack of productivity vis-a-vis the rest of the economy.

When government runs it is the same thing. Since businesses and people will pay for it, and people are subject to economic fluctuations, the medical industry will still be subject to business cycles just like the rest of the economy. I know that you're not necessarily for government takeover, but nothing will avoid this problem. If there's a business cycle, medicine will necessarily feel it.

I'm not in any way advocating government-run health insurance. I am not suggesting that private sector/consumer-driven approaches cannot address those problems.

Private sector solutions could readily be designed to address the procyclicality issue. One example might include a supplemental insurance product that would make it possible for a person to maintain his/her existing coverage for a period of unemployment were he/she to have depended on his/her employer for coverage. That's just one example. Various researchers e.g., Harvard Business School professor Regina Herzlinger is one such person.
 
Why have you earned that? Why do you deserve to have someone come to help you and devote time and resources? What does the doctor and the hospital owe to you?

It seems like you're arguing that you're entitled to medical care. Well why?

The countries with the "best medical care" offer if for free. It is considered a right, the same as fire and police protection. Thank you for proving my point.
 
The countries with the "best medical care" offer if for free. It is considered a right, the same as fire and police protection. Thank you for proving my point.

You proved nothing. I asked you a question. Why do you feel that you deserve medical treatment? In other words, why do you feel that you can tell the doctor what can do, to basically enslave him? Why do you deserve his services?

Other countries doing it proves nothing. Other countries used to have official religions and persecuted people of other religions. Does that mean that we should have done it? So don't try those logical fallacies on me again.
 
The countries with the "best medical care" offer if for free. It is considered a right, the same as fire and police protection. Thank you for proving my point.
News:
If you get something because the government forces someone else to pay for it, it isn't a right -- its a privilege, and its provided to you by others at the point of a gun.

And so, the idea that it is "free" defies all reason.
 
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Why would anyone want to settle for socialized health care that would have government restrictions? Let's fix the things that are wrong with our present system. There are many ways to save money without changing the whole system. I know that having a hospital bill made so people can understand and check it, would save a few billion. Making it so BC&BS get the same rates for services as do Liberty Mutual and other ins co. Have states hire more people to police doctors that are padding bills and cheating ins co. Check ins co. to make sure they are paying out what they should be paying. Blah, blah.
 
You proved nothing. I asked you a question. Why do you feel that you deserve medical treatment? In other words, why do you feel that you can tell the doctor what can do, to basically enslave him? Why do you deserve his services?

Other countries doing it proves nothing. Other countries used to have official religions and persecuted people of other religions. Does that mean that we should have done it? So don't try those logical fallacies on me again.

For the same reason I deserve a fire department, public roads, police and military protection, a functioning electrical grid, clean water and free education. I am a citizen, I pay taxes, I live in a civilized, high tech society. If I or a member of my family needs medical care, the quality of that care should not depend on the size of my bank account, and it certainly should not drain that bank account. Why do I deserve medical treatment? Because I am an American citizen.
 
Why do I deserve medical treatment? Because I am an American citizen.
You can argue you have a right to all those things, all you want.

However, having a right to something doesn't equate to having the right to have others pay for it.

In the land of milk and honey, YOU must put it on your table.
 
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For the same reason I deserve a fire department, public roads, police and military protection, a functioning electrical grid, clean water and free education. I am a citizen, I pay taxes, I live in a civilized, high tech society. If I or a member of my family needs medical care, the quality of that care should not depend on the size of my bank account, and it certainly should not drain that bank account. Why do I deserve medical treatment? Because I am an American citizen.

You're dodging the question. You pay for military protection, fire protection, and police protection in accord to what you have. So you're paying for it in accord with what you get. Not so with the health protection that you're advocating. That does not change in proportion to what you have. However, you want people to pay for it in accord with what they have. Where's the justice in that? We all need health coverage in the same amounts roughly. So it's not the same at all.

Same with water, electricity, and education. The government should not be providing these. We ration water and run low on water with the government controlling it. Same with electricity. Government has failed us with education.

The only job of government is to protect us. Anything more than that is an intrusion on our liberties.
 
Well, there are some inherent inefficiencies in insurance that need to be dealt with. For example, if you had food insurance, would you buy ground beef or filet mignon? You'd by the filet every time. Of course, if you were buying yourself, you might pick the ground beef since it's cheaper and you can't afford filet every time. So we can see how insurance can throw off the price system.

Using absurdity to make a case doesn't lend any credibility to your arguments; food insurance? Please…… :roll:

The solution to me seems to be deductibles and co-pays. This way we feel the price of what we are getting it and are covered in case of an emergency.

You're kidding right? You don't know that almost EVERY insurance plan today includes deductibles and co-pays? The ONLY ones that are 100% paid for may be a few leftover Union plans but for the most part, ALL insurance programs I know of have a deductible, which is selectable as to the amount of deductible to the monthly cost by participants I might add, and co-pay options which also allow the buyer to choose the amount of co-pay which reduces or increases your monthly premium.
 
What a joke. If I am driven to an emergency room, they won't even treat me unless I can prove I can pay for it. If they do treat me, it will cost a fortune if I have to stay overnight, thousands if I walk out after treatment. How does that even come close to being "the best medical care systems in the world"?

It is nearly impossible for me to take anything you post with any degree of seriousness.

Carry on. :roll:
 
Why would anyone want to settle for socialized health care that would have government restrictions?

The answer to this is easy; (1) they are uninformed or ignorant; or (2) they are a politician who wants more power over your life.
 
Using absurdity to make a case doesn't lend any credibility to your arguments; food insurance? Please…… :roll:

It's an analogy, and it works.

You're kidding right? You don't know that almost EVERY insurance plan today includes deductibles and co-pays? The ONLY ones that are 100% paid for may be a few leftover Union plans but for the most part, ALL insurance programs I know of have a deductible, which is selectable as to the amount of deductible to the monthly cost by participants I might add, and co-pay options which also allow the buyer to choose the amount of co-pay which reduces or increases your monthly premium.

And these help, but we need more of them so that we can come closer to a true price system. The importance of the food analogy was that no one will know the price of what they are getting and won't care. It becomes a huge expense for society, yet no one will care because they are covered. Deductibles and co-pays help us to get closer to a price system, but we probably need more of them.

Ask a doctor how much an MRI costs, you'll be amused at the answer you get.
 
For the same reason I deserve a fire department, public roads, police and military protection, a functioning electrical grid, clean water and free education. I am a citizen, I pay taxes, I live in a civilized, high tech society. If I or a member of my family needs medical care, the quality of that care should not depend on the size of my bank account, and it certainly should not drain that bank account. Why do I deserve medical treatment? Because I am an American citizen.

There is not a person working in America today that cannot afford to buy health insurance; but when having a big screen LCD TV is more important to you than providing for healthcare, we call that CHOICE.

CHOICE and QUALITY are two things missing in any Government sponsored system; the notion that anyone should be placed on a WAITING list for critical care can only be argued for in a vacuum of reality and the FACTS.

The other FACT is that the countries who treat healthcare as a "right" are now struggling with the burden of such systems as they approach bankruptcy.

Another FACT is that for decades, these nations also gutted their defense budgets to help pay for the ever increasing costs of their generosity relying on the USA to carry their burdens and the FACT that their societies have suffered low economic growth rates and double digit unemployment.

Another FACT is that their citizens suffer from HIGH tax burdens in just about every facet of their lives including personal tax rates at the lower pay levels of 25%, gas prices more than double ours and a VAT that makes it cheaper to buy from other nations and pay the duty than to buy their own products.

Why would ANY nation with EDUCATED citizens want the SAME?
:roll:
 
Ask a doctor how much an MRI costs, you'll be amused at the answer you get.

Low Cost Cash Discount MRI $380 - Cash Discount CT Scan $270
Low Cost CT Scan & MRI Discount Cash Prices for people with no health insurance.

Open or closed, low cost quality cash discount MRI with and without contrast, and open or closed, low cost quality discount CT Scans with and without contrast for people with no health insurance. Low cost cash discount $270 CAT Scans - Affordable CT Scans - MRI $380 cash discount prices - Quality open MRI or closed MRI and open CT Scans available. Doctor referral required to get the discount prices.

Magnetic Resonance Imaging $380, CT Scans $270, MRI Discounts, MRI Prices, Low Cost MRIs,Discount MRIs,MRI Costs, MRI Prices,Discount CT Scans,CT Scans,CT Scan Discounts, Low Cost CT Scans,CT Scan Prices,CT Scans Costs

What does an average MRI cost?

MRI cost can range between $400 to $3,500 depending upon which MRI procuedure is performed (example: brain mri vs. shoulder mri) and where you have the MRI test performed. The same exact MRI test can vary by hundreds of dollars from testing facility to testing facility. That's why it is important that you shop around to make sure you're getting the best possible price. By spending a little time and shopping around your local hospitals and imaging centers you can save hundreds if not thousands of dollars. MRI costs are broken down into two areas:

Technical Fees: this is the cost of the procedure and where there is a potential to save a considerable amount of money.

Professional Fees: this is the fee associated with having the radiologist interpret the test result.

Costs Reimbursement - Insured Customers

Most insurance companies, including Medicare, will reimburse the cost of getting an MRI. In most situations when an MRI is requested by a medical professional the procedure is automatically determined to be reimbursable dependant upon your particular insurance plan. It's important that you are familiar with your insurance prior to having any procedure, especially expensive procedures, performed to know if there are any special notifications or authorizations that need to be secured to ensure reimbursement. Make sure you notify the imaging doctor or technician of your concerns or pre-certification prior to any elective tests or procedures. If pre-certification is required by our insurance carrier and you do not get such pre-certification this may result in full denial of your insurance claim. Medicare and other insurance coverage policies are always changing so it is important that you contact Medicare (www.mericare.gov) or your insurance company to determine coverage prior to having any procedure performed.

MRI Cost & Pricing Information

Typical costs:
For a patient not covered by health insurance, the typical cost of an MRI ranges from about $1,100 to $2,700, depending on whether the MRI is performed at a doctor's office or hospital and on what part of the body the MRI is done. For example, according to the BlueCross BlueShield of North Carolina Health Care Cost Estimator, an MRI done in a doctor's office ranges from $1,100 to $1,485, while an MRI done in a hospital ranges from $1,458 to $2,090. And, at the Tulane University Hospital and Clinic, a patient would pay between $1,369 and $2,623 with an uninsured discount. And at the Kapiolani Medical Center, in Aiea, Hawaii, the charge for a brain MRI would be about $934 if paid within 30 days and $1,090 if paid within 90 days.

The MRI, when ordered by a doctor, would be covered by almost all health insurance plans as a medically necessary diagnostic tool.

For patients covered by health insurance, if deductibles are met, typical out-of-pocket cost for an MRI would be a copay for the doctor's visit and possibly a copay for the MRI. For example, on a First CarolinaCare copay plan, the visit copay would be $20 and the MRI copay $100.

Cost of an MRI - Get Information and Cost Guidelines - CostHelper.com
 
But that's not what I'm asking. Sure, some places give you a list of prices and you'll know exactly what things cost. Other places though don't have that. The doctors that only take insured patients will have absolutely no idea how much things cost.
 
I had an experience that opened my eyes. I was stuck between Liberty Mutual not paying for an MRI that they should have paid for and my wife's family plan. I suffered the pain until it got too bad and used my wife's plan. Right after BC&BS covered the MRI at a cost of over $1200, Liberty Mutual decided that I was correct and said they would pay for it. I went to the MRI place and told them that I needed the bill for the MRI I had so I could give it to Liberty Mutual. The bill they gave me was for $672. I figured they were screwing BC&BS, so I called them and told them about the difference. They told me it was their schedule of payements and Ins Co may get a better price.
 
Your first sentence is patently false. There are clear economic incentives in preventative care when the patient pays the full cost of care that do not exist in the current health insurance model. Yes, people are reluctant to go to the doctor--and when there is no incentive to do so, that reluctance is not countered and thus predominates in the choices patients make...Some people would make that choice. However, others do not. I know people who go to the doctor at the first sneeze.

You continue to fail to deal with the fact that this is not an ordinary demand issue, as would exist with something intrinsically desirable. Even as a threat it has no certain consequence for a given individual, and given our cultural love affair with risk, the obvious consequence should be apparent even to you.

Actually, perfect knowledge of the costs of care would only be scary in a "sticker shock" manner. Fear is primarily a response to an unknown/unknowable phenomenon. Very little that is well known is much feared.

Exactly, you agree, but then force yourself into the wrong conclusion again because, as before, you ignore the differences in the psychology between car-buying and medical care. Even if you discount the vanity aspect of car-buying, and focus purely on the necessity of it, the consequences of not having a car for a commuter are much more obvious than skipping medical check-ups. I know of no vanity, no social appeal, of having essential medical care, either. So the market is very different for a good chunk of the population.

There is even an occurence of ideology-based refusal of medical care also, often publicized in the media, - clear cases in which a person would live with treatment and quickly die without, so the extent to which people will sometimes go to avoid reasonable care clearly extends beyond financial reason. Obviously, few people are that irrational, but not everyone has to be that extreme to be unconsciously pulled into similar self-deluding rationales and avoidance behaviors. Almost anything can and will be used by some people to avoid care, so the only way to mitigate that is to remove those excuses at the point of decision.

Again, you are presuming incentives do not change. That is an irrational and unsupportable position to take. Incentives most assuredly would change.

Not at all, the whole basis of my commentary is about incentives which will work. I am simply pointing out that the incentives you are citing are not fully functional in the medical market, and therefore potentially detrimental to public health.

Moreover, you naively assume any given medical cost is a simple one-time payment, as for a single procedure, that people can easily shop around. That is only possible in a limited number of situations, and most of the time costs keep accruing unexpectedly as issues, unique to the individual, keep cropping up. There is virtually no way an ordinary person can ever account for every possible future need and then budget for it, other than for the barest of routine services. Even medical professionals themselves can't forsee individual needs sometimes, so how are non-medical consumers going to achieve this?

Those factors do not invalidate my hypothesis. I am not claiming people will be perfect in pursuing preventative care, merely that they will be incented to do so, and that the incentives will have significant impact on their consumption patterns regarding healthcare.

Well that's the whole point, your incentives only affect a portion of the market. Such incentives alone may improve health care compliances for some, but because they don't help the entire market, therefore they are not the best solution for this market.

True enough, but you are talking about a small sliver of overall healthcare cost and consumption. Also, given the problematic nature of serious disease, it is a markedly different economic discussion. Cost of cancer treatment is not what drives the cost of "normal" healthcare through the roof.

You are clearly wrong here, as care of serious chronic disease constitutes the majority of health care spending. It is only a smaller proportion by population, not cost. So your solution would be simply to allow 10+% of the population simply die prematurely, unnecessarily? You have not thought this through in any way that has a basis in humane reason.

Even if hospitals continued emergency treatment regardless of a patient's ability to pay, that still would not cover chronic illness and lead to a much higher mortality rate in the general population. Moreover, how does a person "shop around" when they are having a medical emergency, if they are unconscious no less? It is an absurdity to remotely suggest that.

Prices would fall because the current price models are only sustainable with insurance, and are in fact driven by the insurance distortion. When the economic concern regarding healthcare is a lack of health insurance for some, rather than access to the services themselves, that alone is proof of an irrational pricing mechanism. Prices could not do anything but fall if health insurance were withdrawn from the equation.

Again you falsely assume that installing a rational pricing mechanism will magically induce rational consumption of this particular "product". Also, as pointed out earlier, medicine is not a single product price which a consumer can easily shop around except in limited cases, even if they were perfectly rational. Even professional knowledge doesn't guarantee the ability to fully predict costs for a given individual.

Further, while it is true that healthcare is not a pure commodity, there is competition among physicians just as there is in many service industries--chiefly on the basis of skill/knowledge/competence. Doctor "A" competes with Doctor "B" on the basis of who's "better". A non-distorted market mechanism would leverage even that competition to push prices down overall.

In a functional free market, pricing pressures for such compel both Doctor "A" and Doctor "B" that they are worth the higher fee; their economic incentive is to argue the value of their services and justify whatever fee they seek to assess. The value argument is also part of what would moderate patient behavior and shift the perception of healthcare in a positive direction. People are not troubled by price when they perceive value.

Actually, that is not true. It is illegal in many states for doctors to make claims of better medical treatment. Presumably, the standard of care is just that, and no one therefore can claim to be better without implying another is involved in malpractice. It is a violation of every ethics code I know of.

The only way in which doctors can legitimately compete is in providing a more appealing staff and cosmetically beautiful office, and that obviously has little to do with the quality of medical care. Competition on pricing typically would be on the few common procedures patients understand, a kind of loss leader. It is not a good model to build the best health care on.

It works very well for cosmetic procedures, but then, that kind of medicine is somewhat antagonistic to good health care.
 
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BWG,

You are correct that I'm only talking about single-payer in reply to a member's posted message.

Without doubt there are major issues with respect to the current system. Some major issues include:

1. Persistent high incidence of uninsured persons. This situation imposes costs on the nation's economy.
2. Persistent situation where costs are rising faster than nominal economic growth, an unsustainable situation in the long-term.
3. Procyclicality of a largely employer-based private system.

Any credible health reform efforts will need to tackle those issues. Until I have a chance to examine the actual details of what is on the table, rather than reports of what might be in the works, I will hold off on commenting in any great detail.

Oh I agree it's hard to discuss details that aren't there. You can get into a major distraction on an issue that isn't.

I agree that your three points are present now and they need to be addressed.

How do we fix them? As you can tell, ask ten different people and you'll get ten different answers.

Is there a magic wand that we can wave and all is right? Of course not and no matter what plan does or does not come to be, it's not going to be perfect, some are going to be unhappy and those that don't get their version implemented are going to point fingers and say, 'I told you so'.

I think the current proposals that allow those that are happy with what they have, keep it and those that aren't, a choice to opt into a public plan is the way to go. I don't believe anything that forces anyone to give up the status quo has any chance at all of passing either congress or public support.

One thing that is speaking loudly, with their silence, is the rest of the industrialized nations that have some type of UHC the fact that are not demanding that their government switch to a United States type of health care system.
 
The federal government has not run anything that stayed in budget yet,how do you expect them to run health care.

Will the federal people use the same doctors I don't think so.

We all will be giving up a lot,personally I don't want have to go to Wallmart doctor,with substandard treatment and health care.
 
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