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Carrie Prejean Stripped Of Miss California Title

jallman said:
Yes. That the libertarian argument is against expansion of government involvement in marriage. No hate or ignorance toward gays. Just keeping with their idealogy.
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True...but anti-government involvement or acceptance of gays....the result is the same.
 
jallman said:
I did. Some libertarians embraced Ron Paul with an almost cult like devotion.

Most libertarians embrace your marriage argument. Two seperate issues.
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They embraced the attitude that the fedarl government should not be involved in marriage. Should not be involved in the drug war and should not be involved in Iraq when the U.s. was not threatened by them.
 
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jallman said:
Yes. That the libertarian argument is against expansion of government involvement in marriage. No hate or ignorance toward gays. Just keeping with their idealogy.
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Platform - Libertarian Party
1.0 Personal Liberty

Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the rights of individuals by government, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships.​
I think it is rather clear that the libertarian position is not just about the federal government and that gay marriage should not be restricted by any government. That is my experience with libertarians anyway.
 
xvz said:
Platform - Libertarian Party
1.0 Personal Liberty

Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.

1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the rights of individuals by government, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships.​
I think it is rather clear that the libertarian position is not just about the federal government and that gay marriage should not be restricted by any government. That is my experience with libertarians anyway.
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I'm a republican who supports gay marriage, like many other republicans. You can pull whatever platform off the net you want. Doesn't make it anything more than some platform you pulled off the net.

Libertarians have varying rationales for their arguments. Just like republicans. Just like democrats.
 
jallman said:
I'm a republican who supports gay marriage, like many other republicans. You can pull whatever platform off the net you want. Doesn't make it anything more than some platform you pulled off the net.

Libertarians have varying rationales for their arguments. Just like republicans. Just like democrats.
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Jall....you are the rarity in the Republican party. You say you support gay marriage "like many other Republicans".....If you are being honest....you would say "Like a minority of"....
 
jallman said:
Libertarians have varying rationales for their arguments. Just like republicans. Just like democrats.
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In that part I think you are right.

Libertarians don't want the federal government intervening, but have no problem with states doing what they want even if it is wrong.

Dems and Reps, both don't mind the federal government intervening in cases they agree with.

Where is the middle? Who is right, who is wrong?
 
TheNextEra said:
In that part I think you are right.

Libertarians don't want the federal government intervening, but have no problem with states doing what they want even if it is wrong.

Dems and Reps, both don't mind the federal government intervening in cases they agree with.

Where is the middle? Who is right, who is wrong?
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I try damned hard to find it. :2wave:
 
jallman said:
I'm a republican who supports gay marriage, like many other republicans. You can pull whatever platform off the net you want. Doesn't make it anything more than some platform you pulled off the net.

Libertarians have varying rationales for their arguments. Just like republicans. Just like democrats.
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Was that not the official libertarian platform?

From the top of the provided link:
National Platform of the Libertarian Party

Adopted in Convention, May 2008, Denver, Colorado​
I think it was... thus not just any old "some platform."

You identified libertarians as an anti gay marriage crowd. I believe disneydude was right when he commented that such people are not really libertarians. They are probably just republicans in hiding.

TheNextEra said:
Libertarians don't want the federal government intervening, but have no problem with states doing what they want even if it is wrong.
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Your representation of the libertarian party is not correct. Yes it is true that they support a limited federal government, but that does not mean they in general are OK with anything the states wish to do.
 
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xvz said:
Was that not the official libertarian platform?

From the top of the provided link:
National Platform of the Libertarian Party

Adopted in Convention, May 2008, Denver, Colorado​
I think it was... thus not just any old "some platform."

You identified libertarians as an anti gay marriage crowd. I believe disneydude was right when he commented that such people are not really libertarians. They are probably just republicans in hiding.
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Alright really, do you honestly think that every Republican agrees with the Republican platform? I don't. The only platform I believe in 100% is the Constitution, sans ammendments a few of which I have a problem with. Jall is saying not all libertarians agree with this platform even if it is official.
 
jallman said:
I try damned hard to find it. :2wave:
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So do I, and I while I don't subscribe to the whole Libertarian Ideology, I do find that the federal government has a whole lot of power vs. the states and to that end I don't like it.

I don't want to say the libertarian movement is right in the whole State vs Federal thing, but I find myself siding with the states needing more power at least.

I do believe federal powers have their merit, but it seems lately in the last DECADE that the federal government has been either given or taken too much power.
 
wbreese91 said:
Alright really, do you honestly think that every Republican agrees with the Republican platform? I don't. The only platform I believe in 100% is the Constitution, sans ammendments a few of which I have a problem with. Jall is saying not all libertarians agree with this platform even if it is official.
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The discussion was about positions opposing gay marriages that were not based on hate or ignorance. Jall cited libertarians, because they oppose the involvement of government in marriage. That is in fact a libertarian position but it is not a position opposing gay marriage. So your object is a failure. But if jall wishes to ride on it.. please provide the non-libertarian position, supported by some libertarians, opposing gay marriage that you find not based on hate or ignorance.
 
jallman said:
So still nothing to support the idea that she wants to repress peoples' rights?
Didn't think so.
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You can ignore the evidence that she has taken action to repress gay rights all you want. Doesn't mean you're right, it just means you're blind. You might want to examine that.
 
xvz said:
The discussion was about positions opposing gay marriages that were not based on hate or ignorance. Jall cited libertarians, because they oppose the involvement of government in marriage. That is in fact a libertarian position but it is not a position opposing gay marriage. So your object is a failure. But if jall wishes to ride on it.. please provide the non-libertarian position, supported by some libertarians, opposing gay marriage that you find not based on hate or ignorance.
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For God's sake, just because I tend to agree with him most of the time doesn't mean I worship his opinion. Secondly, I don't have to provide a differing libertarian opinion. I was arguing generally that just because a person is a libertarian doesn't mean they have to agree totally with the libertarian platform.
 
wbreese91 said:
For God's sake, just because I tend to agree with him most of the time doesn't mean I worship his opinion. Secondly, I don't have to provide a differing libertarian opinion. I was arguing generally that just because a person is a libertarian doesn't mean they have to agree totally with the libertarian platform.
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I accept your position, my request was more for jall. Sorry for the confusion.

For jall:

Please provide the non-libertarian position, supported by some libertarians, opposing gay marriage that you find not based on hate or ignorance.
 
Dezaad said:
You can ignore the evidence that she has taken action to repress gay rights all you want. Doesn't mean you're right, it just means you're blind. You might want to examine that.
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You can ignore the fact that there is no evidence to support your position. Doesn't mean you're right, it just means you are hysterical. There's really no helping that.
 
gay rights?

What are those?

I couldn't find that section..maybe its in the secret records?
Nicholas?
 
Triad said:
gay rights?

What are those?

I couldn't find that section..maybe its in the secret records?
Nicholas?
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Since gays are people, too, I would surmise that gay rights fall under the umbrella of human rights and the civil rights everyone else enjoys.

There, mystery solved.
 
jallman said:
You can ignore the fact that there is no evidence to support your position. Doesn't mean you're right, it just means you are hysterical. There's really no helping that.
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While you are waiting for the evidence you have asked for, you can answer to your own unsupported claim.

disneydude said:
I have yet to hear anyone make a good argument that places the anti gay marriage crowd outside of either the hate group or the ignorant group.
Maybe there is one...I just haven't heard it.
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jallman said:
Religious groups. Many libertarians. Just old folks who can't wrap their mind around the concept. People like my own grandparents on one side of the family. :shrug:
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Who are these many libertarians and what is their good argument to oppose gay marriage?

As has been established, the official libertarian platform condemns opposition to gay marriage.

Platform - Libertarian Party
1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the rights of individuals by government, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships.​

And even further...

3.5 Rights and Discrimination

We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should not deny or abridge any individual's rights based on sex, wealth, race, color, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.​
 
jallman said:
Since gays are people, too, I would surmise that gay rights fall under the umbrella of human rights and the civil rights everyone else enjoys.

There, mystery solved.
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oh like heterosexual rights...not real.
 
The entire idea of beauty pageants is misogynistic anyway. It has young girls and women chasing after looks and thinking that beauty is going to solve the problems of anyone's life. Here we have this bigot shooting off her mouth and getting slapped down for it. Vanessa Williams was hammered for being in Lesbian pictures. Then we have beauty pageant entrant Palin and we can see her leaning.

I think it is nice they took her title. Maybe they can Prop 9 it back to her. They did that to the Gays and Lesbians they prop 8ed away the right to same sex marriage.
 
Inferno said:
The entire idea of beauty pageants is misogynistic anyway. It has young girls and women chasing after looks and thinking that beauty is going to solve the problems of anyone's life. Here we have this bigot shooting off her mouth and getting slapped down for it. Vanessa Williams was hammered for being in Lesbian pictures. Then we have beauty pageant entrant Palin and we can see her leaning.

I think it is nice they took her title. Maybe they can Prop 9 it back to her. They did that to the Gays and Lesbians they prop 8ed away the right to same sex marriage.
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Uuuuuuuuuuuuh Hello? They also get to demonstrate their backwards beliefs by talking about political subjects like P8.
 
xvz said:
While you are waiting for the evidence you have asked for, you can answer to your own unsupported claim.



Who are these many libertarians and what is their good argument to oppose gay marriage?

As has been established, the official libertarian platform condemns opposition to gay marriage.

Platform - Libertarian Party
1.3 Personal Relationships

Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the rights of individuals by government, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships.​

And even further...

3.5 Rights and Discrimination

We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should not deny or abridge any individual's rights based on sex, wealth, race, color, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.​
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This has already been answered.
 
Hatuey said:
Uuuuuuuuuuuuh Hello? They also get to demonstrate their backwards beliefs by talking about political subjects like P8.
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That is the only entertaining portion of beauty pageants, watching the contestants struggle to form coherent thoughts. The type of women drawn to be a contestant in one of these is not generally one who does a lot of thinking, at least not past how they are going to pay the loan they took out to get implants.
 
If Parez Hilton would have just gone home after the pageant and gone to bed instead of making a drunken rant on his popular web site nobody would have any idea who Carrie Prejean is or her feelings about gay marriage. She would never have become the martyr of any anti gay marriage group.

It is all his fault. He did his cause no favors.
 
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