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BNP leader pelted in egg protest

It really bothers me that parties such as the BNP were allowed to take part in the elections.
It's one of democracy's biggest holes.
To allow a party that opposes democracy into elections in a democratic state is nothing but bizarre.

With all that being said, I do not support violent protests.
 
Apocalypse said:
With all that being said, I do not support violent protests.
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I wouldn't really class it as 'violent'
G20 was violent, this is nothing
 
Laila said:
I wouldn't really class it as 'violent'
G20 was violent, this is nothing
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Violent wasn't a relative term last time I checked.
If they use violence, it's violent. Period.
 
Apocalypse said:
Violent wasn't a relative term last time I checked.
If they use violence, it's violent. Period.
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Well, we will agree to disagree on that.
It was a disruptive and stupid one but no one got hurt.
 
Laila said:
Well, we will agree to disagree on that.
It was a disruptive and stupid one but no one got hurt.
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Pelting someone with eggs is far more real a crime than calling them a racial slur.

It's bizarre how you people think.

"Oh, their views are bad, bad, bad, so we can throw things at them with impunity."

Idiocy, frankly.
 
Blunt said:
You are right, he now runs
hopenothate.org.uk
Registrant:
Gerry Gable
Whois
Look I dont want to get into an Internet argument with you over something we probably share, I just wanted to point out the agenda of the site and it´s owner
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Well hope not hate was the site I gave the link to. They work together with Searchlight - that is they put a lot of Searchlight's articles in and you will see Searchlight is also advertising Hope not hate.
Searchlight Magazine

I don't want to get in an argument either particularly if we are possibly of similar views.

I can only say that I have never seen anything which sounds like apartheid on this site apart from the belief that that is the BNP's intentions.

When I first visited the site I did check out a couple of the articles I found and found that they were accurate as per other information I found....so I am still feeling a bit of a loss as to what your issue really is with the site.
 
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Laila said:
Well, we will agree to disagree on that.
It was a disruptive and stupid one but no one got hurt.
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When you use violence against someone you disagree with, you give nothing but legitimation to his ideas in the eyes of the public.
That is true about every field in life, whether it's politics or just a small argument between two people.
 
Apocalypse said:
When you use violence against someone you disagree with, you give nothing but legitimation to his ideas in the eyes of the public.
That is true about every field in life, whether it's politics or just a small argument between two people.
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Oh i agree, i think ignoring it is the best way to go.
 
kaya'08 said:
I said by expressing a racist idea or ideology, you wont go down for a term. For example, i could say, "well, i want all Pakistanis out of Britain". Its an opinion. The statement is racist, sure, but they are not directly insulting the race. Racism by insult, as far as we in Britain concerned, IS discrimination, because you are classifing people because of there race, and this should be the case in all nations. If the BNP however, turn around and say, "Oh, your a dirty Indian/Blackface/Polock", then your going to get a prison term, end of.
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Insults should not fall under discrimination. Discrimination involves removing the rights of certain citizens for reasons that are questionable. Insulting people does not remove their rights in any way. It just offends them. Should we have laws that protect us from insults now? How far will the slippery slope go?


Being racist is crossing the line.
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I don't think so. Being racist doesn't cross any legal lines. Acting on that racism does.


Again, hardliner Ideologies that are pushed by the BNP like the restriction of the rights of all non-whites is an ideology that is racist, sure, but its allowed, and i agree with you, should be countered by arguments of our own. We cannot weather opposition with laws that seem moral on the surface but are actually a tool to combat free speech and opposition. But insulting a persons race isnt an ideology or an opinion, its sheer ignorance, discriminative, and should not be acceptable by any means. I suppose the differences in mental attitude between Americans and European people on this topic is the reason why we disagree with each other, but to us we believe these laws are important, and i suppose when seen from that perspective, there is no wrong or right answer to this situation.
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Well, I'm not American and I think some of our laws here in Europe that limit our freedom of speech are very counterproductive. Obviously they are extremely unsuccessful in preventing the rise of extreme right-wing ideology as the number of those parties across the continent attests. Silencing these people is obviously not the answer. Why not try letting them spout off their extremist views freely and watch them self-destruct?
 
Arcana XV said:
Well, I'm not American and I think some of our laws here in Europe that limit our freedom of speech are very counterproductive. Obviously they are extremely unsuccessful in preventing the rise of extreme right-wing ideology as the number of those parties across the continent attests. Silencing these people is obviously not the answer. Why not try letting them spout off their extremist views freely and watch them self-destruct?
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I think the best way to deal with bad ideas is to expose them to the harsh light of public discussion, not force them under the rug to fester.
 
alexa said:
Yes the throwing of eggs is crossing a line and I am not usually one for violence. I just can't help myself feeling pleased when there is an angry protest against them. When he arrived for the election results there were people waiting and shouting 'Nazi thug'

They were clearly very angry.

Up until now there has not been any proper investigation by the media - probing questions and such like. He has just been able to say his propaganda...

It does though I think beg a question about them being able to stand. That is underneath the propaganda most of us are aware of who they are and if they were honest they would be arrested for some of their views.

It will be interesting to see how it develops.
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Source for your claims that he /they would be arrest for their views, The Last Tinme I was in Europe which wasn't to long ago it was my understanding that you folks have these things called Freedom of Speech/Thought and Political Views or is it only certain folks can have these rights and to the hell with anyone else who doesn't cowtow to the great European Utopian idea's.

(Before someone brands me a Nazi or Neo-Fasist I'm far from it I don't support any Nazi Views what I do support is their right to have free speech and thought we all may choice not to agree with it but we don't have the right to stop them from expressing them)
 
Scorpion89 said:
Source for your claims that he /they would be arrest for their views, The Last Tinme I was in Europe which wasn't to long ago it was my understanding that you folks have these things called Freedom of Speech/Thought and Political Views or is it only certain folks can have these rights and to the hell with anyone else who doesn't cowtow to the great European Utopian idea's.

(Before someone brands me a Nazi or Neo-Fasist I'm far from it I don't support any Nazi Views what I do support is their right to have free speech and thought we all may choice not to agree with it but we don't have the right to stop them from expressing them)
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It'ss been pretty much over discussed already.

However I had a look and it appears we have had laws of this kind since 1732.

As far back as 1732, a court held that a newspaper which made scurrilous allegations against Portuguese Jewish immigrants, resulting in violence against Jews, was seditious because it tended 'to raise tumults and disorders among the people, and inflame them with a spirit of universal barbarity against a whole body of men, as if guilty of crimes scarce practicable, and totally incredible.
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Laws Against Incitement to Racial Hatred in the United Kingdom - [1994] AJHR 15; (1994) 1(1) AJHR 235

Here's another link

Incitement To Racial Hatred

Here's a link to the racial and religious hatred act of 2006

Racial and Religious Hatred Bill Approved | Home Office

but as you can see there is nothing new in us having these laws.

In respect of the BNP's recently elected people, it looks like people are getting ready

The BNP will inevitably face a series of legal challenges on issues ranging from discrimination and employment law to possible criminal offences, lawyers say, following two candidates' election to the European parliament.

The party's constitution, which says membership is "strictly defined within the terms of … 'indigenous Caucasian' and defined ethnic groups emanating from that Race" is a breach of the law against discriminating in membership organisations, according to legal experts.

"An unincorporated association like the BNP which has genuine screening for membership cannot unlawfully discriminate," said Gavin Millar QC, who specialises in election and discrimination law. "There will inevitably now be legal challenges to this.

"It was presumed before that the BNP were so unimportant that it wasn't worth trying, but now this is a live issue, and the BNP's constitution must be challenged."
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BNP poll win brings cash and staff ? and legal challenges over racism | Politics | The Guardian
 
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Seems clear by the victory they achieved that those who don't like them failed in their message.
Now instead of dealing with that those who oppose them instead wish to what?

Criminalize the speech that got them the support.

Whose the Fascists again?

...........

Beyond that all it does is empower them. They can now say "See people of the UK our opponents are so afraid they will not even allows us to speak to you freely. Do you want to be led by people who will not even speak the truth to you for fear of a law? Do you want to be led by the same old politicians who have brought your country to this point?"

Answer will be no.


BNP will gain form these actions and these actions will push more people to support them.

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The extreme right has made significant gains throughout europe...its likely to continue to make gains likely up to an including people as head of states as well as instituting polices ejecting non-indigenous folks. Atm there is no Hitler figure of note in any nation..but that likely to change as well especially if the economy continues as is.
 
Triad said:
The extreme right has made significant gains throughout europe...its likely to continue to make gains likely up to an including people as head of states as well as instituting polices ejecting non-indigenous folks. Atm there is no Hitler figure of note in any nation..but that likely to change as well especially if the economy continues as is.
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Well i havent seen any evidence of criminalizing racist speech and then as a result right-wing parties gaining support as a result of this, sorry. A hitler like figure is not likely to rise again any time soon in Europe, infact i doubt it will be Europe who tries to exterminate and expand continent wide this time. This is a fantasy for white nationalists more than it is the reality despite the current economic climate.
 
Arcana XV said:
Insults should not fall under discrimination. Discrimination involves removing the rights of certain citizens for reasons that are questionable. Insulting people does not remove their rights in any way. It just offends them. Should we have laws that protect us from insults now? How far will the slippery slope go?
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Britons see it this way. Discrimination occurs because of someones race, racism is a type of discrimination because one is getting treated differently as a result of there race. I believe the both should be categorized under the same heading, and this is why racism is downright disgusting and as a result, rightfully illegal. Racism shouldnt be acceptable despite the circumstances, this is why it should be illegal. Insulting people based on personal qualities is acceptable is most cases, but racism, nuh-uh, never.



I don't think so. Being racist doesn't cross any legal lines. Acting on that racism does.
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It crosses moral lines like most things illegal.


Well, I'm not American and I think some of our laws here in Europe that limit our freedom of speech are very counterproductive. Obviously they are extremely unsuccessful in preventing the rise of extreme right-wing ideology as the number of those parties across the continent attests. Silencing these people is obviously not the answer. Why not try letting them spout off their extremist views freely and watch them self-destruct?
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Its clear that British views are definetly different to most Europeans, hence our large differences in attitude to the EU.
 
There is a reason why name-calling, racism and incitement to vilolence is not allowed or appreciated on a respectful discussion forum, so I don't see why it should be allowed in a respectful nation.
 
Mira said:
There is a reason why name-calling, racism and incitement to vilolence is not allowed or appreciated on a respectful discussion forum, so I don't see why it should be allowed in a respectful nation.
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Mira, you just summed up my entire point in a few sentences, i thank you! Though id rather reserve this logic for racism. Its not acceptable under any measure of free speech.
 
Mira said:
There is a reason why name-calling, racism and incitement to vilolence is not allowed or appreciated on a respectful discussion forum, so I don't see why it should be allowed in a respectful nation.
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They are 2 different things.Its called freedom of speech you have to protect freedom of speech for bigots too.

Otherwise you start going down a road where decent in general from popular opinion is banned.Incitement to violence is completly different to name calling or racism.Also to put this in practise it would require a benevolent group of people to judge what is right or wrong to say.
 
Mira said:
There is a reason why name-calling, racism and incitement to vilolence is not allowed or appreciated on a respectful discussion forum, so I don't see why it should be allowed in a respectful nation.
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Yet people continually justify terrorism aimed against a specific group and indulge in all manner of hateful invective against them.
 
Arcana XV said:
Well, I'm not American and I think some of our laws here in Europe that limit our freedom of speech are very counterproductive. ?
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Not just counterproductive, but in application and through the attitudes of so many dogmatic people, are often racist in and of themself.

Just try criticizing an Imam who is preaching hatred, and the very people who indulge in so much faux grandstanding about racism will shout you down with accusations of "Islamophobia". They are not judging whether or not something is racist by what is being said, but by who is saying it.
 
Triad said:
Seems clear by the victory they achieved that those who don't like them failed in their message.
Now instead of dealing with that those who oppose them instead wish to what?

Criminalize the speech that got them the support.

Whose the Fascists again?
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I actually find it startling that people don't "get" this.

Beyond that all it does is empower them. They can now say "See people of the UK our opponents are so afraid they will not even allows us to speak to you freely. Do you want to be led by people who will not even speak the truth to you for fear of a law? Do you want to be led by the same old politicians who have brought your country to this point?"
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Exactly. It FEEDS their racism and xenophobia, and shows their supporters that yes, there IS an agenda against whites in the UK. It's crazy. Let them run. Let them serve. The cause of equality is served far more by exposing, openly, the absurdity and stupidity of racism.

The extreme right has made significant gains throughout europe...its likely to continue to make gains likely up to an including people as head of states as well as instituting polices ejecting non-indigenous folks. Atm there is no Hitler figure of note in any nation..but that likely to change as well especially if the economy continues as is.
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Silencing these people only gives them strength, turns them into martyrs, and shows that their agenda of intolerance is correct.

Absurd.

Why are people so afraid of just letting idiots speak and out themselves? Why is free speech (even ugly speech), so frightening?
 
Gardener said:
Just try criticizing an Imam who is preaching hatred, and the very people who indulge in so much faux grandstanding about racism will shout you down with accusations of "Islamophobia". They are not judging whether or not something is racist by what is being said, but by who is saying it.
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Hear, hear. I so agree. I've seen it happen time and again on these forums. These laws AGAINST intolerance are used to protect the intolerant.
 
Gardener said:
Yet people continually justify terrorism aimed against a specific group and indulge in all manner of hateful invective against them.
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You mean like calling them racist assholes and throwing eggs at them? :shock:
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I think the best way to deal with bad ideas is to expose them to the harsh light of public discussion, not force them under the rug to fester.
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There are other reasons darling
 
Catz Part Deux said:
You mean like calling them racist assholes and throwing eggs at them? :shock:
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For certain people the mere wish to live without people hassling them is called "racist" by those truly indulging in the practice.
 
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