Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

goldendog said:

You get him hopped up on Tennessee whisky.

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Funny pic, but the comment is a bit irrelevant given that carrying while drinking is still illegal.

People opposed to gun control should oppose that law. Guns and liquor in a room of drunks is a certainty of unjustifed gun violence. There are MANY people who go red eyed drunk - meaning totally out of their minds. They might not even remember what they did. In that often is violence and total lose of self control and values. It just happens. The trash people redlight clubs I often went to would have been slaughter grounds if guns weren't kept out as an understood rule.

Goshin said:

Funny pic, but the comment is a bit irrelevant given that carrying while drinking is still illegal.

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So once he's good and drunk and stopped drinking, then you give him the gun.

joko104 said:

People opposed to gun control should oppose that law. Guns and liquor in a room of drunks is a certainty of unjustifed gun violence. There are MANY people who go red eyed drunk - meaning totally out of their minds. They might not even remember what they did. In that often is violence and total lose of self control and values. It just happens. The trash people redlight clubs I often went to would have been slaughter grounds if guns weren't kept out as an understood rule.

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Do I need to say for the THIRD TIME that it is still illegal to carry a gun while intoxicated??
And that a bar owner can STILL post his bar "no guns" if he chooses??

:damn

G.

TheNextEra said:

So now you take the ownership rights away from the Bar owners.

If a Bar owner doesn't want people to carry firearms in HIS ESTABLISHMENT, that is his right.

Much like if I don't want someone to bring in their firearm to my home I have the right to tell him to not come in or leave it.

The Gun owners don't have to go to his bar.

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What you're saying is that you read the thread title, and posted.

Both the Tennessee House of Representatives and the Senate have overruled a veto by Tennessee Governor Phil Bredesen on a bill that makes carrying handguns into bars legal, it was announced Friday. Consuming alcohol while carrying a handgun will remain illegal, but those with a permit to carry a weapon will be allowed to do so in any restaurant or bar. Owners can still opt to ban handguns from their establishments.

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When 3 gang members get pissed at the way average Joe is looking at them I rather someone have a gun on their hip when the gang members start stabbing him with broken beer bottles or opening fire.

Goshin said:

This is in error, apparently. The article linked to says:




You can carry into a bar, IF the bar owner does not choose to post against it, and IF you do not consume alcohol while armed.

I have no problem with this at all. Carrying while drinking I would have had a problem with, but that remains illegal according to the article.

G.

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To Goshin and Celtic Lord - I stand corrected. I agree with you both. Seems I need to read my links better instead of over reacting at first glance. Today, I am an idiot.

Oops, do I get infraction points for personally attacking myself? LOL.

dirtpoorchris said:

When 3 gang members get pissed at the way average Joe is looking at them I rather someone have a gun on their hip when the gang members start stabbing him with broken beer bottles or opening fire.

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Tell your senario to the end.

You’re sitting at a bar with your wife or best girlfriend having a drink (but definitely not getting drunk). I’m there with my wife too at another table. I sort of look like a gang member myself to some people depending how I'm dressed. I have a single stack short 45. My wife has a stub 38 special in her purse. About 50 or 75 other people there packed no more or less than the average tavern style bars on a Saturday night.

Suddenly we all see, just 20 feet from you, what looks like 3 young Latino gang members furiously stabbing and slashing what looks to you like an average Joe white guy. For some reason they don’t have guns although gang members but you do. Or at least you think they don’t. Maybe other people there also have guns. Or don’t. Maybe there are other gang members there. Maybe not. Not time to tell.

I’ll finish that story for myself and my wife: We leave. We get in our car and drive away. It is the safest choice for my wife. My wife? Everything to me by comparison. Those average Joe? Nobody to me. Even her out of the picture: Myself? Everything by comparison. That average Joe? Nobody to me.

It would be entirely different if they were slashing the average black bear or panther with broken bottles and knives. Then they’d be in a s…t load of trouble with me. I’d quickly whisper to my wife to get out her 38 special and get on the floor adding “this one’s for you, baby." After she was down, for sworn duty I’d shoot them a bunch of times as I shouted out “POLICE!” to the others in the bar because shooting them would make me look very good to my wife – though I might delay first if that average bear or average panther was winning because it would be very interesting to watch 3 punks in a knife fight with a bear or panther. Then I'd say off the Miranda warning over their bodies to cover that little detail.

I’m an excellent shot and a 45 is low penetration, big knock down. She’s not a bad shot anymore either and with 38 liquid filled hollow points also low penetration. She really hates hunters – all except one. She always got a special sparkle in her eye when I hurt someone for her. I’d probably get a medal, at least from my wife. Certainly an extra good BJ out of it. Humans aren’t on any endangered or restricted hunting list so are out of my area of obligation.

Besides, I can’t think of any legitimate reason 3 guys would be slashing the average bear or panther with broken bottles and knives. Not so sure about that guy being an Average Joe. He might have raped and killed one of their little sisters and then I’d be cheering the 3 even if they were young Latinos. Hard to know what’s going on between people when they’re fighting. In most fight circumstances now most people would conclude by appearances I was the bad guy.

So my conclusion to your story of gang members attacking average Joe in a bar is simple. “I leave quickly.”

But it is your story and it is an example you gave of why you said want a firearm in a bar. So the least you can do is to finish your story. Be specific. Fire a warning shot into the air shouting “FREEZE!”? Just open up on the 3? SCREAM “I’ve got a gun, everyone down!”?

Finish your what-if story. Specifically. What you would do is…

danarhea said:

Oops, do I get infraction points for personally attacking myself? LOL.

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Nah, but you need to apologize to yourself profusely in appropriately titled Basement thread!:2razz:

Goshin said:

Do I need to say for the THIRD TIME that it is still illegal to carry a gun while intoxicated??
And that a bar owner can STILL post his bar "no guns" if he chooses??

:damn

G.

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Tennessee has found a clever ne wway to get huge fine money from people in relation to liquor. A reason to frisk everyone in a bar down making them take breathe tests so try to make huge fine arrests where not at worse they can do a non-traffic misdemeanor public intoxication ticket or arrest?

Hey, here's a hint. Probably you don't know what people do in bars. They get drunk.

That's what bars are for. That's the reason bars specialize in selling alcohol. That's what keeps every bar in business - drunks. Bar fights - tens of millions a year - become bar gunfights. You can't kill someone on a 0.002 second decision with a knife or broken bottle. (Where the hell does anyone get broken bottles in bar fights from other than Hollywood? Why not have gang members breaking tables and chairs over the Average Joe?)

Seriously, have you ever even seen a bar fight? I've been in many. Been arrested for a few. No one comes at you with anything because no one comes at you at all. They start with the other person or people in your face. In the fantasy gunning down gang members, it'd just be guys that have circled you all within 3 feet increasing puffing at you, intimidating you. No knives. No broken bottles. If they're going to hurt you, they're going to throw you down starting 2 feet away and kick and stomp on you. If you tried to grab for something they'd just take it away and then decide whether or not they want to kill you with your own gun - knowing that is exactly what you were going to try to do to them the second before. Then whether you die or any of them do, I'd just see it as a gun fight you started and maybe you lost.

It was very rare anyone used a weapon (knife) against me. My attitude totally changed. I could do exactly anything I wanted to a person once a deadly weapon was involved. Legally too. If you and I were in a bar, you used any aggressive or negative words towards me, and I knew you had a gun, in my view I could and should see you as an aggressively deadly threat and do all I could to seriously incapacitate you in the sense of very serious injury. I could kill you without fear of any legal repercusion even if you had done nothing at all. I could even do so just because I didn't like you or wanted to. I am talking about this not in just the "what if theory" voice most write opinions on. I suppose you could tell the police your side of the story that you hadn't reached for your gun if you were still alive. But you had a deadly weapon. I didn't. I win that argument.

Or shoot you with your own gun, claiming you pulled it (has your finger prints), we struggled over it and you lost. I walk away. You're dead. Actually, with your gun I could shot anyone, claiming it went off while we struggled after you pulled it. The gun started with you, not me. I didn't put a gun into it. You did. If you pull a gun on me but you failed and I get it and shoot you instead, I think I walk free since I tell the story.

The law will allow cops to kill anyone they want to in bars, however. That could be a plus.

Then there's all the drinking non-drunk drunks passing their guns around the bar showing them off. Certainly none of those will go off because we know no one in a bar is intoxicated and everyone knows how to handle a handgun safely.

As for your shouting "THREE TIMES I SAID IT IS ILLEGAL TO HAVE A GUN WHILE INTOXICATED" - it is always illegal to be intoxicated in a bar. Its just not enforced. Anyone drunk in a bar is illegally intoxicated. So, then, for your logic, why is every bar filled with drunks? Its not liquor that makes people drunk, its people that make people drunk? Its ILLEGAL to drive while intoxicated, therefore no one does it?

Bars are collections of drunks. THAT'S WHAT A BAR IS FOR. It is the place where people go to get drunk and to be with fellow drunks and alcoholics. You're thinking of TGI Friday. Not bars.

A bar without regular drunks and alcoholics will be out of business quickly. And a bar for which at least a fourth aren't also flying on some drug is rare. If anyone has a gun in a bar then everyone in who wants a gun has a gun. If you have a gun and I want it, its mine. Or are you going to shoot everyone who walks closely behind you? The usability of a handgun assumes you have enough distance from someone to pull it and fire. Enough distance so they just don't take it from you first. You can't just shoot someone for getting too close to you. But if close to you, and all fights start after nose to nose puffing, the gun is an irrelevancy if the other person toughter. In fact, since you've lost one arm and hand going for the gun they don't even have to be tougher. All your really doing is handing him or them your gun.

Do motorists passing by have a right to put a no-guns sign on the bar door? What about people who live in the apartment complex across the street? Or did I miss your posting the law also requires a minimum of 12 inches of concrete and 1 inch thick steel doors being required?

You're probably one of those people declaring guns don't kill people, people do. You're wrong. Bullets kill people. Bullets go through walls. Bullets go through more than one person. Bullets go whereever they go. Most people can hit s...t with a handgun and are as likely to hit anyone than who they are shooting at - particularly if drinking.

It is an insane law that I can only figure another of the endless ways the government tries to profit off alcohol related arrests and any other way to get money from people. Traffic fine money getting too low in Tennessee?

The only people in a bar that should be allowed to have a firearm should be the bar owner/manager and then limited as to what type of firearm it can be. No high velocity or high capacity firearms.

I own many handguns and half a dozen shotguns and long rifles. But the extremist of the gun-rights people who believe everyone has a right to have any weapons they want any where they want that they can afford - that we all have a right to own tactical nuclear weapons, grenades and bazookas as they tour the White House - is just extremism on slogans.

That law was passed to give police legal reason to search anyone in a bar saying it appeared they had bulge or what looked like a gun outline and the usual "slurred speech and alcohol breathe", give them breathe tests and make DWI grade fine arrests for people not in a car. They rely on people like you to use slogans to justify it as a gun-rights issue. Its police fund raising. It is elmination of search and seizure restrictions in the Constitution to people in bars. Go through their purse and pocket for that gun - lucky break. They find pot!

It makes as much sense and legalizing possessing heroin, but illegal to use, and then giving people who have it blood drug or hair folicle tests. Some money raising and put more citizens in prison concept.

You know, the thing that strikes me when I read this, is this thought...doesn't the Tennessee legislature have more important things to do? I could care less about the issue itself, but if my representatives spent time on something this trivial, I would be looking to run them out of office...

Redress said:

You know, the thing that strikes me when I read this, is this thought...doesn't the Tennessee legislature have more important things to do? I could care less about the issue itself, but if my representatives spent time on something this trivial, I would be looking to run them out of office...

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So you're on board with the anti-incumbent movement come next election?

Sweet!

joko104 said:

Hey, here's a hint. Probably you don't know what people do in bars. They get drunk.

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Junior, I probably been around a lot more than you have. Not everybody goes to a bar to get drunk. Restaurants that serve alcohol in my state are currently off limits to carry, needs correcting. If you're carrying, no booze. It's simple.

That's what bars are for. That's the reason bars specialize in selling alcohol. That's what keeps every bar in business - drunks. Bar fights - tens of millions a year - become bar gunfights.

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Maybe you missed a few things:
1. You have to have a permit, which means a clean record.
2. the bar can still be posted no carry.
3. If you're drinking, you can't legally carry.
4. Permit holders have a FAR better record of staying out of trouble than the general population.

Seriously, have you ever even seen a bar fight? I've been in many. Been arrested for a few. No one comes at you with anything because no one comes at you at all. They start with the other person or people in your face. In the fantasy gunning down gang members, it'd just be guys that have circled you all within 3 feet increasing puffing at you, intimidating you. No knives. No broken bottles. If they're going to hurt you, they're going to throw you down starting 2 feet away and kick and stomp on you. If you tried to grab for something they'd just take it away and then decide whether or not they want to kill you with your own gun - knowing that is exactly what you were going to try to do to them the second before. Then whether you die or any of them do, I'd just see it as a gun fight you started and maybe you lost.

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Dude, I have probably forgotten more about tactics and fighting than you ever knew to start with. Don't try to teach your gramma to suck eggs. If you think you can just take a gun away from me, you're welcome to try. Ever heard of ECQC? Yeah, didn't think so. Don't try to come on like you know more about this crap. CONCEALED weapon means concealed, as in people don't usually know you're carrying. This is the same old tired BS as we heard about shall issue permits to start with. "Oh it will be a bloodbath!" But it wasn't.

I know how to take guns away from people. I've done it. I know how to keep people from taking my gun; done it. You're overdramatising based on incomplete knowlege.

It was very rare anyone used a weapon (knife) against me. My attitude totally changed. I could do exactly anything I wanted to a person once a deadly weapon was involved. Legally too. If you and I were in a bar, you used any aggressive or negative words towards me, and I knew you had a gun, in my view I could and should see you as an aggressively deadly threat and do all I could to seriously incapacitate you in the sense of very serious injury. I could kill you without fear of any legal repercusion even if you had done nothing at all. I could even do so just because I didn't like you or wanted to. I am talking about this not in just the "what if theory" voice most write opinions on. I suppose you could tell the police your side of the story that you hadn't reached for your gun if you were still alive. But you had a deadly weapon. I didn't. I win that argument.

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You have no idea what you're talking about. First I'm not that easy to incapacitate or kill, nor are a good many other people, tough guy.

Second you don't seem to understand the law regarding what is and what isn't self-defense very well. You can't just off somebody because they're running their mouth and have a gun concealed on their person, generally. If they SAY they're going to shoot you, and then start to draw a gun, yes.

I can't even cover all the errors in your post, but that's a start.

G.

celticlord said:

So you're on board with the anti-incumbent movement come next election?

Sweet!

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In Tennessee, sure.

East Coast Grappling Championship?
Export Credit and Guarantee Corporation of India Ltd.?

Ok old man, you could take me with one arm tied behind your back.

Tell us some war stories. Maybe I could learn something.

They had food in the clubs you went to?

joko104 said:

East Coast Grappling Championship?
Export Credit and Guarantee Corporation of India Ltd.?

Ok old man, you could take me with one arm tied behind your back.

Tell us some war stories. Maybe I could learn something.

They had food in the clubs you went to?

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Okay, we've both prowled in a circle and growled with our ears laid back. Now maybe we can talk turkey.

You annoyed me, because you talked down to me like I was a punk, which I am definately not. I returned the favor, and doubt you liked it any more than I did.

Okay, you don't know me and I don't know you. I don't know what you've done, and you don't know what I've done. Tell ya what... I'll do you the courtesy of assuming you have some actual experience in dealing with violence, you return the favor...because I definately do.

Putting aside all the rhetoric and penis-fencing, let's look at the substance of your arguments.

You assert that
1. Millions of barfights will turn into millions of gunfights, because the drunks will have guns.

Rebuttal: Not everybody has a permit. You have to have a clean record, and keep it clean, to have a carry permit. Permit holders have an excellent record of staying out of trouble. Habitual drunken brawlers with a rap sheet as long as my arm ain't getting a carry permit.
Point two: Illegal to drink and carry still. Permit holders want to keep those permits, so they're generally pretty careful not to do things that will lose it.
Point three: Bar owners can still post their bar "no guns" and it applies. There's a difference between a nice restaurant that serves alcohol, or a bar that caters to a middle-class clientele, and a redneck dive or hood joint. The latter will probably be posted, and permit holders who want to stay out of trouble and keep that permit better stay out of them anyway.

2. You assert, If you're carrying a gun, someone will take it away from you.

Lord, if I've heard this once...
It isn't that easy. First of all its a concealed-carry permit. Meaning if you're doing it right, nobody is likely to know you have a gun on you. They can't take what they don't know is there.
Second, taking a gun isn't like taking candy from a baby. Well, if you're dealing with a total dweeb and you're well trained, it may be fairly easy. A lot of permit holders also have hand-to-hand training; I do. A lot of permit holders get advanced firearms instruction, in how to disarm people and how to retain your weapon against a disarm attempt.
I'm not saying it is impossible, just that its not as simon-simple as many people make it sound. The first part is knowing who has a gun, and where the gun is. If they're doing it right you'll hardly ever know either of these things.

3. You say, the presence of a gun may escalate a fight into a killing.

Well, in this you could have some point. IF Joe is running his mouth about his piece and what he's going to do...well he's an idiot to start with but it could happen. Most of the time you aren't going to know that an educated gunman is carrying at all, until it is out. Crime statistics indicate that when a citizen is armed the perp usually runs off. A properly educated gunman is going to try to avoid penis-fencing barfights, nobody really wins and it isn't worth it once you're past 25.

Self defense requires a number of components to be legal. You must be where you have a right to be, doing what you have a legal right to do. In many jurisdictions you must be without fault in the incident. You must believe yourself to be in imminent danger. A "reasonable man" in your position should also believe himself in imminent danger. Generally, just because someone is armed and maybe running his mouth, isn't of itself justification to kill him on the spot. If he makes a verbal threat, then makes a gesture that indicates he is going to carry out that threat, then you've got cause. Jeopardy plus Opportunity plus Ability.

The short version is, its not going to be a case where every power-drinker and drunken brawler chugging Jack Daniels is packing heat. To be legal, you have to have a permit/clean record, the bar is not posted, and you're not drinking.

If it were lawful to get drunk while carrying, hail even I would oppose that. Guns and drinking do not mix.

Are we understanding each other a little better now?

G.

danarhea said:

Now this I don't understand. Tennessee has some of the toughest DWI laws in the country, but they now pass a law that says that you can wear a gun in a bar while getting drunk? That is sure going to cut down on crimes of passion, committed in drunken rages, isn't it?

I don't know about anybody else, but IMHO, every member of the Tennessee Congress that voted this bill into law and overrode the governor's veto deserves a share in this year's Idiot of the Year Awards.

Article is here.

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Tennessee is sure to produce tons of material for the next Darwin Awards.:roll::2razz:

Goshin said:

Okay, we've both prowled in a circle and growled with our ears laid back. Now maybe we can talk turkey.

You annoyed me, because you talked down to me like I was a punk, which I am definately not. I returned the favor, and doubt you liked it any more than I did.

Okay, you don't know me and I don't know you. I don't know what you've done, and you don't know what I've done. Tell ya what... I'll do you the courtesy of assuming you have some actual experience in dealing with violence, you return the favor...because I definately do.

Putting aside all the rhetoric and penis-fencing, let's look at the substance of your arguments.

You assert that
1. Millions of barfights will turn into millions of gunfights, because the drunks will have guns.

Rebuttal: Not everybody has a permit. You have to have a clean record, and keep it clean, to have a carry permit. Permit holders have an excellent record of staying out of trouble. Habitual drunken brawlers with a rap sheet as long as my arm ain't getting a carry permit.
Point two: Illegal to drink and carry still. Permit holders want to keep those permits, so they're generally pretty careful not to do things that will lose it.
Point three: Bar owners can still post their bar "no guns" and it applies. There's a difference between a nice restaurant that serves alcohol, or a bar that caters to a middle-class clientele, and a redneck dive or hood joint. The latter will probably be posted, and permit holders who want to stay out of trouble and keep that permit better stay out of them anyway.

2. You assert, If you're carrying a gun, someone will take it away from you.

Lord, if I've heard this once...
It isn't that easy. First of all its a concealed-carry permit. Meaning if you're doing it right, nobody is likely to know you have a gun on you. They can't take what they don't know is there.
Second, taking a gun isn't like taking candy from a baby. Well, if you're dealing with a total dweeb and you're well trained, it may be fairly easy. A lot of permit holders also have hand-to-hand training; I do. A lot of permit holders get advanced firearms instruction, in how to disarm people and how to retain your weapon against a disarm attempt.
I'm not saying it is impossible, just that its not as simon-simple as many people make it sound. The first part is knowing who has a gun, and where the gun is. If they're doing it right you'll hardly ever know either of these things.

3. You say, the presence of a gun may escalate a fight into a killing.

Well, in this you could have some point. IF Joe is running his mouth about his piece and what he's going to do...well he's an idiot to start with but it could happen. Most of the time you aren't going to know that an educated gunman is carrying at all, until it is out. Crime statistics indicate that when a citizen is armed the perp usually runs off. A properly educated gunman is going to try to avoid penis-fencing barfights, nobody really wins and it isn't worth it once you're past 25.

Self defense requires a number of components to be legal. You must be where you have a right to be, doing what you have a legal right to do. In many jurisdictions you must be without fault in the incident. You must believe yourself to be in imminent danger. A "reasonable man" in your position should also believe himself in imminent danger. Generally, just because someone is armed and maybe running his mouth, isn't of itself justification to kill him on the spot. If he makes a verbal threat, then makes a gesture that indicates he is going to carry out that threat, then you've got cause. Jeopardy plus Opportunity plus Ability.

The short version is, its not going to be a case where every power-drinker and drunken brawler chugging Jack Daniels is packing heat. To be legal, you have to have a permit/clean record, the bar is not posted, and you're not drinking.

If it were lawful to get drunk while carrying, hail even I would oppose that. Guns and drinking do not mix.

Are we understanding each other a little better now?

G.

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Awesome post.

You should pick an opponent and have Capt'n reopen the True Debate forum for you.

So it's illegal to carry a gun while going to a bar to get drunk. But going into a bar with a gun is now legal? I hear that driving while drunk is still illegal too. All it takes is one drink according to the commercials.

Hatuey said:

Alright. So it's still illegal to carry a gun while drunk......I hear that driving while drunk is still illegal too.

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You want to ban cars?

hazlnut said:

Tennessee is sure to produce tons of material for the next Darwin Awards.:roll::2razz:

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Although that is mainly because New Yorkers and Californians tend to consider it a great risk when their latte is too hot.:2razz:

Don't you know what holding a handgun does to your manicure?

Jerry said:

You want to ban cars?

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Seems to me that this law is pretty irrelevant and regardless of what it says, people will walk into bars with guns anyways. This just tells them that now they can do it just that if they don't drink. Which is you know. Kind of like putting a 5 year old kid in front of a pedophile and daring him to touch just to see how long it takes. I know you don't drink. But I know of very few people who walk into bars for the finely aged foods.

Hatuey said:

Seems to me that this law is pretty irrelevant and regardless of what it says, people will walk into bars with guns anyways. This just tells them that now they can do it just that if they don't drink. Which is you know. Kind of like putting a 5 year old kid in front of a pedophile and daring him to touch just to see how long it takes. I know you don't drink. But I know of very few people who walk into bars for the finely aged foods.

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If the same people are going to do it anyway, than those people are already doing it now, and the only people who can't are the one's who won't get into drunken shootouts.

Wessexman said:

Although that is mainly because New Yorkers and Californians tend to consider it a great risk when their latte is too hot.

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Huh? What does that have to do with the Darwin Awards?

Hint: You have better chance of receiving one if you marry within your family.

hazlnut said:

Huh? What does that have to do with the Darwin Awards?

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The liberal states don't win them much because they tend to consider a latte that is too hot a great risk. It was a joke, you hinted that the great state of Tennessee will win lots of them because they're stupid and I hinted the liberal states are pansies and that is why they won't win many.