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Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

Wessexman said:
The liberal states don't win them much because they tend to consider a latte that is too hot a great risk. It was a joke, you hinted that the great state of Tennessee will win lots of them because they're stupid and I hinted the liberal states are pansies and that is why they won't win many.
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My state can beat up your state!
 
Goshin said:
Okay, we've both prowled in a circle and growled with our ears laid back. Now maybe we can talk turkey.

You annoyed me, because you talked down to me like I was a punk, which I am definately not. I returned the favor, and doubt you liked it any more than I did.

Okay, you don't know me and I don't know you. I don't know what you've done, and you don't know what I've done. Tell ya what... I'll do you the courtesy of assuming you have some actual experience in dealing with violence, you return the favor...because I definately do.

Putting aside all the rhetoric and penis-fencing, let's look at the substance of your arguments.

You assert that
1. Millions of barfights will turn into millions of gunfights, because the drunks will have guns.

Rebuttal: Not everybody has a permit. You have to have a clean record, and keep it clean, to have a carry permit. Permit holders have an excellent record of staying out of trouble. Habitual drunken brawlers with a rap sheet as long as my arm ain't getting a carry permit.
Point two: Illegal to drink and carry still. Permit holders want to keep those permits, so they're generally pretty careful not to do things that will lose it.
Point three: Bar owners can still post their bar "no guns" and it applies. There's a difference between a nice restaurant that serves alcohol, or a bar that caters to a middle-class clientele, and a redneck dive or hood joint. The latter will probably be posted, and permit holders who want to stay out of trouble and keep that permit better stay out of them anyway.

2. You assert, If you're carrying a gun, someone will take it away from you.

Lord, if I've heard this once...
It isn't that easy. First of all its a concealed-carry permit. Meaning if you're doing it right, nobody is likely to know you have a gun on you. They can't take what they don't know is there.
Second, taking a gun isn't like taking candy from a baby. Well, if you're dealing with a total dweeb and you're well trained, it may be fairly easy. A lot of permit holders also have hand-to-hand training; I do. A lot of permit holders get advanced firearms instruction, in how to disarm people and how to retain your weapon against a disarm attempt.
I'm not saying it is impossible, just that its not as simon-simple as many people make it sound. The first part is knowing who has a gun, and where the gun is. If they're doing it right you'll hardly ever know either of these things.

3. You say, the presence of a gun may escalate a fight into a killing.

Well, in this you could have some point. IF Joe is running his mouth about his piece and what he's going to do...well he's an idiot to start with but it could happen. Most of the time you aren't going to know that an educated gunman is carrying at all, until it is out. Crime statistics indicate that when a citizen is armed the perp usually runs off. A properly educated gunman is going to try to avoid penis-fencing barfights, nobody really wins and it isn't worth it once you're past 25.

Self defense requires a number of components to be legal. You must be where you have a right to be, doing what you have a legal right to do. In many jurisdictions you must be without fault in the incident. You must believe yourself to be in imminent danger. A "reasonable man" in your position should also believe himself in imminent danger. Generally, just because someone is armed and maybe running his mouth, isn't of itself justification to kill him on the spot. If he makes a verbal threat, then makes a gesture that indicates he is going to carry out that threat, then you've got cause. Jeopardy plus Opportunity plus Ability.

The short version is, its not going to be a case where every power-drinker and drunken brawler chugging Jack Daniels is packing heat. To be legal, you have to have a permit/clean record, the bar is not posted, and you're not drinking.

If it were lawful to get drunk while carrying, hail even I would oppose that. Guns and drinking do not mix.

Are we understanding each other a little better now?

G.
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Fair enough.
We're looking at different worlds. My life has greatly changed as in near totally over the last couple years. I do go to restaurants with liquor like TGI Fridays. Even a member of the Country Club.
No I can't go in, shoot someone in the chest, and get away with it because others would tell what actually happened. That's not the clubs I was in. No body saw nothing. Nobody knows anyone's last name. I call them trash people redlight clubs.
I agree with you on the legal theory. Theory and reality often are unrelated.
I few times I've started to post how differently law works in the jungle compared to how it works for other people compared to the theory of how it should work. Cops and DAs doing give a damn what happens in the jungle to jungle people. There is jungle law or no law.
I agree that people with permits tend to be very responsible. I support carry laws. My wife and I both have concealed handgun permits though I no longer need one.
I'm not writing about the dangers of someone with a permit to carry at Bennegans. Bennegans is going to put up signs prohibiting firearms anyway.

I'm writing of concerns of what happens in the trash people clubs. That is where people go red eye drunk and crazy. That's were someone is lying on the floor bleeding, still alive, no one saw nothing or knows anyone - every weekend. Where most people don't die in fights because the attacker lacked the ability to kill them, not the willingness to do so. Most people even can survive a kniving. Not all are "bad" people and most don't deserve death because they are trash people with trash people their own kind of their own ways. Such as I was myself. That is where I fit in, where I could be superior, where my risks and successes could happen.

The jungle has its own laws, its own manner of cops and law enforcement. Its often brutal and it has to be. Guns will break that system down because a gun breaks down that internal power structure and self governing.

So I see your view and I'm in your world now. But I'm thinking of the bottom level gutter people that no one gives a s...t about, mostly rightly so, but not always. I'm not in that world anymore. But those were my people and my way of life.

I don't think guns mix with liquor. Even if someone has a permit. We're both overstating our case, both have valid views. But we have very different concerns about nearly opposite environments of nearly opposite minded people. Gutter people, trash people, pick the words, include both the most danger and the least protected.

I suppose the reality is that likely every club, fine or s...thole will put up a no guns sign. Anyone foolish enough to go into one that doesn't? Well. Buyer beware.

Yeah, you got my respect.
 
joko104 said:
Fair enough....
Yeah, you got my respect
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Thanks, ditto. Hail, I like you kid, you remind me of, well, me, when I was younger. ;)

Okay, with that out of the way, I see the point you're making. I spent a couple years running with that crowd when I was nineteen-twenty years old. I often look back and wonder how I survived and what the hail I was thinking. :doh

Back when I was a cop, I spent my share of time dealing with the bottom rung of the 'hood food-chain, and the people that the rednecks call white trash. I know what you're talking about, and you're not wrong in that sense.

There was a bar called the Little Rebel, and if a cop were feeling ballsey he could go in any sat-nite and bust ten people for illegal carry... IF he got out alive. ;)
There was another one called the Silver Bullet where they used metal detectors. The main bouncer, "Tiny", got shot and stabbed despite this, plus run over in the pkg lot. (Tiny, of course, was frickin' huge...and he survived all the above, heh.)

So yeah, I see where you're coming from and the point you're making.

My only counterpoint is, that scene doesn't usually include lawful permit holders, but rather people who, if they carry, don't worry about whether they're legal or not.

We both got excited and talked past each other at first. Otherwise I think we have an understanding.

Respects.

G.
 
This is fine because the bar owner can still prohibit guns from being on his property. Pretty much, I think this is how it should be with pretty much everything. Assumed that you can carry on the premise less otherwise posted or notified that the property owner forbids it. While I think it's not wise to do so with a bar, in principle I see nothing wrong with this.
 
This will reduce the number of alchohol related deaths on their highways because the numbers of killings that will take place in the saloons will of course reduce the numbers of drunks drivers on the road.
 
rhinefire said:
This will reduce the number of alchohol related deaths on their highways because the numbers of killings that will take place in the saloons will of course reduce the numbers of drunks drivers on the road.
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That was irony, I assume.
 
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