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Man accused of killing abortion doc says he's being 'treated like a criminal'

jallman said:
And just how the hell did you and I end up on the same side of an abortion debate? :2wave:
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Well Dr. Tiller and his clinic have been on our radar for a long time. I think his killing is the first time some other have ever heard of him. In the older debates on here you won't find many on either side having anything nice to say about the dude.
 
jallman said:
Of course there's a conspiracy.

A conspiracy to hide the fact that the man reached into cooters with a pair of gripped, baby skull sized forceps and a medieval instrument made to splinter baby skulls and deflate them before extracting the fetus piece by piece from the uterus. I cannot fathom the type of sickness that brings a man to do that for a living and anyone who has the stomach for it should be subject to oversight when he does need to perform the action for medically necessary reasons. And that oversight should be enforced with a strong amount of skepticism and advocacy for the baby inside who can't speak for itself.
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Jerry's post implied that all the women who used Tiller as their doctor were in cahoots with him and you're agreeing with that?
 
Redress said:
I have not found any such reference to him being a "nutter", and I did look.

I don't know so much about embarrassing, but according to his cease and desist order, it does appear that it is highly likely he was possibly breaking HIPPA. The Kansas Supreme Court specifically ordered "all parties to resist any impulse to further publicize their respective legal positions..."(source already linked).
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All the records he saw were redacted. He can't possibly give away private information when he himself never saw any names.

They wanted him to cease and desist because he makes it difficult for them to continue to refuse to answer the question:

Is Tiller killing viable babies with no regard for the irreversible maternal heath threat law on the books?

That's why they wanted him to stop.
 
It is notable they didn't call him a liar when asking him to stop though, huh?
 
Redress said:
Because in this case you both ended up being wrong? :2razz:

Smiley included to ensure you know I am joking...
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Talloulou, felicity and I have had some epic rows over abortion in the past and this is probably the first time we have been squarely on the same side. Normally it is felicity and lou on one side and 1069 and I on the other. Good times.
 
missypea said:
Jerry's post implied that all the women who used Tiller as their doctor were in cahoots with him and you're agreeing with that?
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I didn't say that at all. I said, specifically, "I don't believe for a minute all the abortions he performed were inappropriate".

But I will put forth that any woman who did go to Tiller for an abortion HAD to be complicit. Now whether that was for legitimate medical reasons or because she got cold feet a little late...well now that's the $64,000 question, isn't it?
 
jallman said:
I don't believe for one minute that all of the abortions he performed were inappropriate.
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Thank you. That was my beef with all these Tiller threads and the "baby killer" mindset.


However, I am highly suspicious of someone who tries that hard to hide something. In this case, he and his buddies were hiding the reasons for killing babies in utero. That's disturbing on any level. I don't think some oversight is too much to ask for and their intent to block that oversight is suspect at best, criminal at worst.
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I have no problem with oversight. I think it's an important piece of the pie. You shouldn't walk a tightrope without a net and it just makes good sense.....as long as HIPAA laws aren't violated.

I am also suspicious of the way the litigation was handled originally. Having people at the steering wheel who protested at the clinic was a poor decision to say the least.

:2wave:
 
talloulou said:
That's just for governor. The amount of money poured in from both prolife and prochoice campaigns along with Dr. Tiller for the DA race was truly incredible. To really understand what Tiller did to Kansas and how politicized abortion became in Kansas read this:

Kansas is deadly epicenter in abortion debate - Life- msnbc.com
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The story you linked to says Tiller raised money but ultimately was unsuccessful:


The doctor himself became a significant player in state politics, forming a political action committee in 2002 that funneled $153,000 into unsuccessful efforts to defeat anti-abortion Republican Phill Kline as attorney general.
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Doesn't seem like they had much political muscle as you keep indicating in post after post after post... Also, the story doesn't say how much Operation Rescue and other groups gave in support of Phill Kline. You got any info on that?

The story then goes on to say that this guy, Kline, went after Tiller with everything he had, but was unsuccessful in getting any convictions.

You keep saying in all your posts that Tiller had all this politic pull and manipulated the system. However the story you linked to seems to indicate the opposite. Tiller was the underdog. The pro-lifer's had the power, with the exception of the Governor--thank goodness for checks and balances, eh?

So, when all the political muscle and money could not stop Tiller, someone took matters into his own hands. Great.:roll:

What would happen if people started doing that on any issue where they didn't get what they wanted?
 
missypea said:
Thank you. That was my beef with all these Tiller threads and the "baby killer" mindset.




I have no problem with oversight. I think it's an important piece of the pie. You shouldn't walk a tightrope without a net and it just makes good sense.....as long as HIPAA laws aren't violated.

I am also suspicious of the way the litigation was handled originally. Having people at the steering wheel who protested at the clinic was a poor decision to say the least.

:2wave:
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Every murder case is a protest against the actions of the murderer. I think that zealous prosecution is a good thing and I do like my prosecutors and defense advocatesto be a little vested in the case so that the adversarial justice system works to full effect. It is a system that works best under higher stress. So long as there was no misconduct on either side, I don't see a problem at all.
 
missypea said:
Thank you. That was my beef with all these Tiller threads and the "baby killer" mindset.




I have no problem with oversight. I think it's an important piece of the pie. You shouldn't walk a tightrope without a net and it just makes good sense.....as long as HIPAA laws aren't violated.

I am also suspicious of the way the litigation was handled originally. Having people at the steering wheel who protested at the clinic was a poor decision to say the least.

:2wave:
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You have to understand Kansas. Tiller's infamous clinic made Kansas the end all be all state for abortion fights. Most in Kansas are squarely on one side or the other and many of their races for most any political position as well as judges, district attorney, etc are fought over as if abortion is the end all be all public concern. Many outsiders poor into Kansas with tons of money for both sides to support their abortion agendas. Abortion may be an issue for some campaigns, some states however for Kansas it is the issue.
 
talloulou said:
It is notable they didn't call him a liar when asking him to stop though, huh?
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Second paragraph: "these statements are incorrect". This is admittedly in response to his assertion that he had not been contacted. Saying he was lying about the records is not possible, since he was the only one to see them. Either he is lying, or Tiller was. That raises serious credibility issues in my mind.
 
talloulou said:
All the records he saw were redacted. He can't possibly give away private information when he himself never saw any names.

They wanted him to cease and desist because he makes it difficult for them to continue to refuse to answer the question:

Is Tiller killing viable babies with no regard for the irreversible maternal heath threat law on the books?

That's why they wanted him to stop.
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The Supreme Court comment was from before McHugh saw the records. This makes a consipracy to silence him seem unlikely.
 
hazlnut said:
The story you linked to says Tiller raised money but ultimately was unsuccessful:




Doesn't seem like they had much political muscle as you keep indicating in post after post after post... Also, the story doesn't say how much Operation Rescue and other groups gave in support of Phill Kline. You got any info on that?
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Kline won the first DA race. He lost second time around.

Both sides of the abortion agenda poor oodles and oodles of money into kansas; all campaigns. Kansas is where the big abortion fights play out.

The story then goes on to say that this guy, Kline, went after Tiller with everything he had, but was unsuccessful in getting any convictions.

You keep saying in all your posts that Tiller had all this politic pull and manipulated the system. However the story you linked to seems to indicate the opposite. Tiller was the underdog. The pro-lifer's had the power, with the exception of the Governor--thank goodness for checks and balances, eh?

So, when all the political muscle and money could not stop Tiller, someone took matters into his own hands. Great.:roll:

What would happen if people started doing that on any issue where they didn't get what they wanted?
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Well the story is recent - post Tiller death and it's MSNBC but what I figured you would be able to get from it is how huge and all encompassing the abortion fight is in Kansas for all sides. Guess not. :(
 
Redress said:
The Supreme Court comment was from before McHugh saw the records. This makes a consipracy to silence him seem unlikely.
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Mc Hugh was dropped from the case, never called as an expert witness to the stand, he also only saw redacted records and never any names. There is no conspiracy to silence him. He's spoken quite freely and gone into great detail on what he saw. He was threatened to quit doing interviews.

meh, if they could get him on anything they would have.

If what he said about the records was a lie they could call him on it, or have the records reviewed by others. But nope. They didn't.

why not? That's the question.
 
Redress said:
Second paragraph: "these statements are incorrect". This is admittedly in response to his assertion that he had not been contacted. Saying he was lying about the records is not possible, since he was the only one to see them. Either he is lying, or Tiller was. That raises serious credibility issues in my mind.
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The state hired him to review the records; all redacted. The state requested the records back from him when he was finished - he gave them back.

Am I to believe that the only folks to ever see these redacted records and what was contained there in are Tiller and McHugh?

Please. They were evidence in a case.
 
talloulou said:
The state hired him to review the records; all redacted. The state requested the records back from him when he was finished - he gave them back.

Am I to believe that the only folks to ever see these redacted records and what was contained there in are Tiller and McHugh?

Please. They were evidence in a case.
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If there is some one else who could verify what was in the records, that person has chosen not to. Anything beyond that is supposition and guesswork. The conspiracy to silence McHugh theory though falls apart when he was violating a Supreme Court order from before he ever started talking to the media, when based on the Cease and Desist order, he had been lying about whether the AG's office had contacted him, when he violated the Kansas Rules of Professional Conduct. The Cease and Desist order is quite clear(I got it from Operation Rescue, so I am sure it is not biased in the AG's favor), and McHugh was quite clearly in violation in at least 2 ways of the law, which lead up to the Cease and Desist order.
 
talloulou said:
Well the story is recent - post Tiller death and it's MSNBC but what I figured you would be able to get from it is how huge and all encompassing the abortion fight is in Kansas for all sides. Guess not.
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Why do you say 'guess not.' I read the story and noted that some of the facts didn't back up statements you continue to make about Tiller having the politicians in his pockets. According to the story you posted, that wasn't the case at all.

Actually, this was the line that stood out for me:

"There's a very prominent vein in Kansas politics that tends toward moral righteousness," said Kansas State University political scientist Joe Aistrup. That contributes to the unending abortion battle: "It's an unsettled debate that produces extremists on both sides."
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I guess the extremist on the pro-choice side would be Tiller. I'll agree with that. He pushed the legal/ethical boundary.

You should rent a movie called Citizen Ruth.-- Great dark comedy portrayal of Pro-lifers and pro-choice folks.

Also, the question I asked in the previous post:

What would happen if every time we were disappointed or angry about the outcome of an election or a court case, we went out forced our will and beliefs on the world the way Scott Roeder did?
 
Time zones are a bastard, it will take me an hour to catch up
 
hazlnut said:
What would happen if every time we were disappointed or angry about the outcome of an election or a court case, we went out forced our will and beliefs on the world the way Scott Roeder did?
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Well that's a pretty far out "what if". No one has condoned what Roeder had done and people that disturbed are lone nut cases. Can you tie this hypothetical into the debate at hand?
 
jallman said:
Well that's a pretty far out "what if". No one has condoned what Roeder had done and people that disturbed are lone nut cases. Can you tie this hypothetical into the debate at hand?
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The hypothetical is part of ongoing conversation in this and other thread where a few people have both covertly and overtly applauded Scott Roeder's actions.

Earlier in the thread, the comment was made re: Roeder. 'What did he do wrong?' The answer given. 'He got caught.'

I hope that it is a far-out what if. Roeder seemed to indicate that other plans were in the works, although I wonder if he's just playing the part and trying to make it seem he was part of bigger violent movement.

I hope that isn't the case.
 
missypea said:
You don't need medical records of all the women to make a reasonable conclusion on whether or not Tiller ran a murder mill.
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The only evidence I have, the BBC article, has suggested he was performing late-term abortions when the mother was not in serious danger. And it is a biased, pro-abortion source.
 
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hazlnut said:
The hypothetical is part of ongoing conversation in this and other thread where a few people have both covertly and overtly applauded Scott Roeder's actions.[
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I can't recall anyone actually doing so.

Earlier in the thread, the comment was made re: Roeder. 'What did he do wrong?' The answer given. 'He got caught.'
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On come on. Are those two very vague comments the only evidence you have?
 
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Wessexman said:
I can't recall anyone actually doing so.

On come on. Are those two very vague comments the only evidence you have?
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Oh come on... Oh come on... Oh come... This took 4mins. btw -- blaming the victim is indirectly applauding the Roeder's actions.

Baralis said:
Consider it a really late term abortion.
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Oftencold said:
Well, we don't know yet if that was why he was murdered.


I must say though, that it is a crime in much the same way that the murder of Josef Mengele would have been a crime.
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Oftencold said:
Nope. [Tiller] was a cold-blooded killer* for hire, who made big bucks chopping up late term infants.

He exploited American women, and murdered infants*, for cash.
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talloulou said:
Tiller ran a chop shop. It'll be closed now. I'm happy. I won't apologize for that.
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talloulou said:
Yes folks are happy to recoil just because I sing ding dong the witch is dead but few go to bat to defend Tiller's career.
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Reverend_Hellh0und said:
[Tiller] did reap what he sowed. Get over it.
The man was a walking holocost.
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Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Perhaps them bitches should have offed themselves before they got pregnant. Or at least decided to have an abortion sometime before the 9nth month.
Freakin monsters. :2wave:
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celticlord said:
[Roeder] was wrong to get caught. What part of that do you fail to comprehend?
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