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Man accused of killing abortion doc says he's being 'treated like a criminal'

Redress said:
To an extent, yes. But, Tiller is the accused, the burden of proof is on the accusers.
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I agree. But the people have the right to put together their case through unobstructed discovery. The discovery process of any case against Tiller is severely hampered by the veto override of a governor who receives campaign funds from Dr. Tiller.

If it looks like a duck...
 
jallman said:
I agree. But the people have the right to put together their case through unobstructed discovery. The discovery process of any case against Tiller is severely hampered by the veto override of a governor who receives campaign funds from Dr. Tiller.

If it looks like a duck...
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Weren't any post-abortion pictures, descriptive files, autopsies, or smiler, recorded so as to confirm that a given fetus had the claimed affliction?
 
jallman said:
I agree. But the people have the right to put together their case through unobstructed discovery. The discovery process of any case against Tiller is severely hampered by the veto override of a governor who receives campaign funds from Dr. Tiller.

If it looks like a duck...
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As best I can find, that number is $38,000 over 7 years. Hardly a large amount all things considered, and I find it hard to believe that Sevelius would risk her political future for that sum.

Source(an anti-Tiller/Sebelious one even): Kathleen Sebelius - Tiller's Governor
 
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jallman said:
Well the case against Tiller is intentionally kept in a weakened state because any attempt at oversight of Tiller's murder mill was intentionally blocked by a governor who was receiving sizable contributions from Tiller. That alone is enough to raise an eyebrow again.
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Bold section is what I was addressing earlier and looks like I'm still addressing.

I know talk like that is great to rally the troops but it does little else other than to lower the tone of the debate. Tiller ran a business where he practiced medicine. That's not a murder mill.

Here's something I posed earlier, Jallman. What say you?


missypea said:
It must be that Tiller and the women who had late term abortions were all just into it for the sake of killing these perfectly sound babies or there were medical reasons behind it.


Which sounds more reasonable?
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Were the women who had late term abortions by Tillman in cahoots with him to kill off perfectly healthy babies for absolutely no reason?


:2no4:
 
Redress said:
So, never admitted it, never convicted. Sounds to me like he was not provably a murderer, and you are just making an unfounded accusation. It's never good to let your emotions overrule your sense.
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Voidwar said:
What Crime ? Oh, I see, now you want to smear him with the word "crime".

This word doesn't apply either, but again we see you using it anyway for the smear value.
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Come over here and make your "never convicted in court" arguments:
disneydude said:
You seriously have to question the intelligence of those who get their information from a drug addict though.
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Let's see if your sincere in your logic or if you're only using whatever seragent argument supports your political opinion for convenience :2wave:
 
Redress said:
As best I can find, that number is $38,000 over 7 years. Hardly a large amount all things considered, and I find it hard to believe that Sevelius would risk her political future for that sum.

Source(an anti-Tiller/Sebelious one even): Kathleen Sebelius - Tiller's Governor
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Can YOU give 38,000 over a seven year period to any particular candidate? I wouldn't bat an eye if the contribution had been a general party contribution, but this was 38K given to one particular candidate.

It is enough to raise some questions given her zealous support of the doctor's practice.
 
Jerry said:
Come over here and make your "never convicted in court" arguments:


Let's see if your sincere in your logic or if you're only using whatever seragent argument supports your political opinion for convenience :2wave:
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Huh? Say what?
 
missypea said:
Bold section is what I was addressing earlier and looks like I'm still addressing.

I know talk like that is great to rally the troops but it does little else other than to lower the tone of the debate. Tiller ran a business where he practiced medicine. That's not a murder mill.

Here's something I posed earlier, Jallman. What say you?




Were the women who had late term abortions by Tillman in cahoots with him to kill off perfectly healthy babies for absolutely no reason?


:2no4:
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Offing perfectly healthy babies is not a practice that is unheard of. I would have no issue if there was some oversight to Tiller's practice. However, with all the secrecy and direct attempts to block legitimate investigation, there should be no surprise that the worst possible scenario is entertained by his detractors.
 
Jerry said:
Weren't any post-abortion pictures, descriptive files, autopsies, or smiler, recorded so as to confirm that a given fetus had the claimed affliction?
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Not even so much as a specific diagnosis of the mother.
 
jallman said:
Can YOU give 38,000 over a seven year period to any particular candidate? I wouldn't bat an eye if the contribution had been a general party contribution, but this was 38K given to one particular candidate.

It is enough to raise some questions given her zealous support of the doctor's practice.
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I could not give 38 cents. What is your point?

I cannot find total campaign donations recieved for Sebilious, every search returns the numbers from Tiller. So I went with a search on governers in general:

Terry McAuliffe: 2.195 mil for 1 election cycle. source

Jennifer Granholm: 4.96 mil in 2005 source

So I ask again, do you really think that some one is going to risk their political life for a contribution that is less than 2 %(38k/2mil, to get a maximum percentage) of the money she raises in any one year?
 
jallman said:
Offing perfectly healthy babies is not a practice that is unheard of. I would have no issue if there was some oversight to Tiller's practice. However, with all the secrecy and direct attempts to block legitimate investigation, there should be no surprise that the worst possible scenario is entertained by his detractors.
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To me those are two separate issues. All the talk about him murdering healthy babies for no other reason other than being a murderer and that all of these women were complicit in aiding him makes me cross-eyed. It makes no sense to me for anyone to make a claim like that.

The legal issues he faced are a different issue in my mind but as far as I know, he was acquitted, yes?


:2wave:
 
Redress said:
She said she did not trust doctors, that doctors can be corrupt. She said that the evidence against Tiller is based largely on the word of a single doctor. You cannot see an issue with those two statements from one person?
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Had they brought in another dr. to review Tiller's records and that dr. disagreed with the first drs. assessment then we'd be getting somewhere in regards to Tiller's innocence or lack of following the law.

As it stands now the Dr. who reviewed the cases was ignored, the question of whether there was irreversible maternal health threats is ignored, and the governor has thwarted the senate's attempts to see to it that answers are gotten to those questions. Basically the question is now off the table.
 
talloulou said:
Had they brought in another dr. to review Tiller's records and that dr. disagreed with the first drs. assessment then we'd be getting somewhere in regards to Tiller's innocence or lack of following the law.

As it stands now the Dr. who reviewed the cases was ignored, the question of whether there was irreversible maternal health threats is ignored, and the governor has thwarted the senate's attempts to see to it that answers are gotten to those questions. Basically the question is now off the table.
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He was ignored because he was not credible. There is still no credible evidence that Tiller did anything illegal, and plenty of evidence he did nothing illegal.

And yet you are glad he is dead, based on weak at best evidence of possible misconduct.
 
Redress said:
OK, but here is the thing. The case against Tiller is largely based on the unproven words of that one doctor, who previously protested against Tiller. If he is to be suspect, and Talloulou states accurately that there are corrupt doctors so he should be, the case against Tiller becomes very weak.
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The case against Tiller became very weak when it became politicized. Instead of being concerned with the actual law on the books it became a nightmare of campaigns, campaign monies, changing DA's, changing state prosecutors, etc. The questions that were being asked were basically shut down as the governor trumped the senate with her veto.

My issue is that there is no transparency and there was an obvious effort to shut down any investigation into the truth of what was occurring in Tiller's clinic.

If the state of Kansas has a law they ought to also have a means of seeing to it that the law is followed - beyond the word of the Dr. accused of breaking the law.

Currently, they do not.

I have no problem with folks saying the Dr. who reviewed Tiller's records was a pathological liar. I'm fine with that. But bring in other drs. to review the records again. Don't just claim "lies" and shut the book. Sort out the truth.

The governor at the time made it all but to impossible to get to the truth. The only reason she could have for doing so was to buffer Tiller from the law.
 
Redress said:
He was ignored because he was not credible. There is still no credible evidence that Tiller did anything illegal, and plenty of evidence he did nothing illegal.

And yet you are glad he is dead, based on weak at best evidence of possible misconduct.
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He absolutely was not ignored because he was deemed uncredible.

He was ignored because the question was considered unworthy by those who wanted to buffer Tiller from the law.

A prosecutor was fired and a new one brought in. That new prosecutor dropped the old guys charges and IMO in order to not look so obvious about sweeping the whole thing under the rug he drummed up some insubstantial charges about 2nd opinions.

When the senate tried to clarify the issue by requesting "private" no names diagnosis to see to it that Tiller was meeting the current state law the governor vetoed that legislation.

So basically while there is a strict cut off point with maternal health being a factor in reality there is no such thing because none of that ever has to be documented.
 
Did somebody say True Debate?
 
Redress said:
He was ignored because he was not credible. There is still no credible evidence that Tiller did anything illegal, and plenty of evidence he did nothing illegal.

And yet you are glad he is dead, based on weak at best evidence of possible misconduct.
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I don't believe the evidence against him is weak. I believe many people were engaged in willfully obscuring what was happening in Tiller's clinic where women came from around the world and around the country to see him. Women who couldn't get the same services anywhere else.

And yes, I'm happy he's gone. I'd be a liar if I said otherwise. To me he is no different than a serial killer.
 
talloulou said:
I don't believe the evidence against him is weak. I believe many people were engaged in willfully obscuring what was happening in Tiller's clinic where women came from around the world and around the country to see him. Women who couldn't get the same services anywhere else.

And yes, I'm happy he's gone. I'd be a liar if I said otherwise. To me he is no different than a serial killer.
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I just have a hard time seeing a wide ranging conspiracy to protect this guy. It seems far from credible. There is no real credible evidence of such a conspiracy, it is wishful thinking to condemn the actions of a guy you dislike.
 
Voidwar said:
And what am I allegedly ignorant of ?

The content of your off topic appeal to emotion ?
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Let me make it a little easier to understand:

That you choose to ignore the fact that an unborn infant's body produces a chemical that keeps the air sacs of the lungs open (necessary for gas exchange within the lungs to oxygenate the blood, which allows the child to survive independent of its mother), plus makes breathing motions while still within the womb (an indication that, if outside the womb, it would still make those same breathing motions, only the baby would be inhaling air instead of amniotic fluid) allows me to believe that you prefer to live in denial.

Hope that helps :)
 
Redress said:
I just have a hard time seeing a wide ranging conspiracy to protect this guy. It seems far from credible. There is no real credible evidence of such a conspiracy, it is wishful thinking to condemn the actions of a guy you dislike.
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Obviously we disagree. That's ok. I can find him to be the scum of the Earth while you remain impartial and content with the fact that he never lost in court.
 
talloulou said:
Obviously we disagree. That's ok. I can find him to be the scum of the Earth while you remain impartial and content with the fact that he never lost in court.
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You are misrepresenting my position. I have yet to see any solid evidence that would make me question a court decision. There is a doctor who made claims, but that doctor had previously protested Tiller's clinic. The governor was supposedly bribed, except the amount of money is trivial. My position is that everything needed to make the case against Tiller is hearsay or guesswork, and far from credible.
 
missypea said:
To me those are two separate issues. All the talk about him murdering healthy babies for no other reason other than being a murderer and that all of these women were complicit in aiding him makes me cross-eyed. It makes no sense to me for anyone to make a claim like that.

The legal issues he faced are a different issue in my mind but as far as I know, he was acquitted, yes?


:2wave:
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He was never acquitted of charges claiming he failed to meet the irreversible maternal health threat on some of his late term abortions.

Those charges did not make it into court.

He was acquitted in regards to using an employee for second opinions. Despite the fact that he continuously used the same women she was considered a "contractor" and not an employee and their financial agreements were not considered illegal. His acquittal basically consisted of, "Yeah it is ok to use her repeatedly as your second opinion - no problem."

He was never found to be innocent in regards to killing viable babies in healthy mothers.

Though he was due back in court before being offed.
 
Redress said:
You are misrepresenting my position. I have yet to see any solid evidence that would make me question a court decision. There is a doctor who made claims, but that doctor had previously protested Tiller's clinic. The governor was supposedly bribed, except the amount of money is trivial. My position is that everything needed to make the case against Tiller is hearsay or guesswork, and far from credible.
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The Dr. who reviewed Tiller's records protested outside the clinic????

I've never heard that. I think you're mistaken.
 
talloulou said:
The Dr. who reviewed Tiller's records protested outside the clinic????

I've never heard that. I think you're mistaken.
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Was in this thread, a few pages back.
 
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