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Man accused of killing abortion doc says he's being 'treated like a criminal'

Wessexman said:
So if I decide I don't think there is a law on murder I won't be arrested for killing?
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Wrong. And you're finally starting to see it.

This abortion doctor doesn't understand why he is being treated as a criminal. He thinks what he did was right.

Our society says he is wrong.

Society wins over the individual.
 
TheNextEra said:
Yes, our society has come up with rules stating those BORN have those rights.

What makes YOUR morals right and everyone else's wrong?
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Within the morals of our society killing a 7 month old fetus would generally be considered abhorrent except in a few circumstances. We are commenting on that. There is no need for your silly attempt to extend the debate.
 
TheNextEra said:
So then you also claim that this abortion doctor being kllled was a right thing to do.
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Wait....where did I ever say that? I never said him being killed was right. I said I am not disappointed he won't be killing more people, but I never condoned his killing. Ever.

And defenseless people is pretty much a given when it comes to moral ills. There isn't much subjectivity about that.
 
TheNextEra said:
Yes, our society has come up with rules stating those BORN have those rights.

What makes YOUR morals right and everyone else's wrong?
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Because I believe we must never let one man decide another mans worth and this is especially true in the eyes of the law. There can be no favoritism, no inequality, or all hell breaks loose. Throughout history we've aimed to make certain humans non-peoples. It never works, and it doesn't last.
 
TheNextEra said:
Wrong. And you're finally starting to see it.

This abortion doctor doesn't understand why he is being treated as a criminal. He thinks what he did was right.

Our society says he is wrong.

Society wins over the individual.
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I saw it all along. Believe me it is not me whose posts are a mound of irrelevancies and non sequiturs.
 
Wessexman said:
This is our point.
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Yet you claim it is wrong and IMMORAL for abortions, yet MORAL and right for slaughter houses. What makes YOU right and PETA members wrong?

The majority. So the Majority decides what is right or wrong for the most part.

That doesn't mean it is right or moral.

So PETA killing slaughter house members would be seen as right and moral to some of them. That doesn't make them wrong or right.
 
talloulou said:
Because I believe we must never let one man decide another mans worth and this is especially true in the eyes of the law. There can be no favoritism, no inequality, or all hell breaks loose. Throughout history we've aimed to make certain humans non-peoples. It never works, and it doesn't last.
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I never thought it would be other prochoicers that convinced me prolife was the more moral of the two...:confused:
 
Wessexman said:
I saw it all along. Believe me it is not me whose posts are a mound of irrelevancies and non sequiturs.
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So then why do Pro-lifers throw in words such as "moral" or "right"? When they know it is how society feels. IT is all opinion, not fact.
 
TheNextEra said:
Yet you claim it is wrong and IMMORAL for abortions, yet MORAL and right for slaughter houses. What makes YOU right and PETA members wrong?

The majority. So the Majority decides what is right or wrong for the most part.

That doesn't mean it is right or moral.

So PETA killing slaughter house members would be seen as right and moral to some of them. That doesn't make them wrong or right.
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Actually it is not the majority that is a very simplistic way of putting it. No value system is simply the rational choice of a majority.

I believe that there are sound basis for a degree of objectivity in ethics but this not the place to discuss that, it not relevant. We can make these judgments within the current moral climate.
 
talloulou said:
Because I believe we must never let one man decide another mans worth and this is especially true in the eyes of the law. There can be no favoritism, no inequality, or all hell breaks loose. Throughout history we've aimed to make certain humans non-peoples. It never works, and it doesn't last.
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you value Human life over Animals. Yet, to PETA members, animal life and human life are equal.

You are no more right than they are. It is all opinion of what the majority in society think.
 
TheNextEra said:
So then why do Pro-lifers throw in words such as "moral" or "right"? When they know it is how society feels. IT is all opinion, not fact.
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They don't feel think it is all opinion but that is irrelevant for our current discussion. What you are attempting to do is push us into a very deep argument that is not necessary.
 
TheNextEra said:
So then why do Pro-lifers throw in words such as "moral" or "right"? When they know it is how society feels. IT is all opinion, not fact.
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Of course. It's not a fact that being a serial killer or a rapist is wrong either. But the whole, "there is no right or wrong," is fairly meaningless outside of college.
 
Wessexman said:
No value system is simply the rational choice of a ajority.
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REALLY? Then why do slaughter houses exist? Because the majority have decided that they should be allowed to exist.

Wessexman said:
I believe that there are sound basis for a degree of objectivity in ethics but this not the place to discuss that, it not relevant. We can make these judgments within the current moral climate.
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And the sound basis for abortions to exist is that the women's body outweighs that of the fetus.

Again, this has been decided. Does it make it right or wrong? No. Just legal.
 
talloulou said:
Of course. It's not a fact that being a serial killer or a rapist is wrong either. But the whole, "there is no right or wrong," is fairly meaningless outside of college.
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This is why you have to set a moral/ethical constant for the purposes of each individual topic within the abortion debate. Otherwise, people start talking about killing trees and amoeba as being no different than killing people.:doh
 
talloulou said:
Of course. It's not a fact that being a serial killer or a rapist is wrong either. But the whole, "there is no right or wrong," is fairly meaningless outside of college.
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But yet it is thrown around so much. How much do we here the Pro-Lifers saying abortion is wrong or immoral. How much to we here the anti-gay marriage crowd saying it is wrong and/or immoral.

The words right/wrong, moral/immoral are thrown around soo much as if it were factual.
 
jallman said:
This is why you have to set a moral/ethical constant for the purposes of each individual topic within the abortion debate. Otherwise, people start talking about killing trees and amoeba as being no different than killing people.:doh
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How do you set such a constant though. No matter what you are talking about right/wrong etc are purely subjective to the society.

Society dictates what is right/wrong, immoral/moral, legal/illegal.

right now abortion is legal in our society. So do you set your standards to society or do you make your own? And if you make your own, what sets you apart from others that make their own.

Tiller's killer made his own standards on what should be legal/illegal against society. So if Tiller's killer is rewarded, than why shouldn't others that have differing vies on what should be illegal/legal?
 
TheNextEra said:
REALLY? Then why do slaughter houses exist? Because the majority have decided that they should be allowed to exist.
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Simplistic. What is moral in a particular society is not a simple rational decision of a majority. That is an untenable methodologically individualist position; values and ideational factors do not spring forth so easily and simply.

Consider reading Hayek's essay on the Errors of Constructivism.


And the sound basis for abortions to exist is that the women's body outweighs that of the fetus.

Again, this has been decided. Does it make it right or wrong? No. Just legal.
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Actually it could be wrong or right within our own social moral framework for a start without talking about anything too objective. All one needs to do is set the debate within the framework of what is best for humanity and individuals over the long term and an even wider framework exists that is not completely reliant of subjective or always even social contexts. If you are a egoist or nihilist you simply make it known and don't take part in the actual discussion of what is best for humanity and individauls over the long term because there is little point in them doing so. Your attempt to appeal to extreme subjectivity is simply a rouse and will not work.

And we're talking about late-term abortions when the mother's life is not in danger. Do you support the legality of this procedure?
 
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TheNextEra said:
you value Human life over Animals. Yet, to PETA members, animal life and human life are equal.

You are no more right than they are. It is all opinion of what the majority in society think.
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The majority of society values human life. Prochoicers just taught themselves to be blind to the human life in the womb. But it is human life. So they're wrong. The majority of prochoicers are not ok with one human being killing another human being without just cause. They just see no human being. The majority of prochoicers value the lives of their fellow man over animals they just have convinced themselves their fellow man is not in the womb.

As far as PETA goes it is irrelevant. If you want me to agree that there are PETA members who have strong convictions that raping and killing your fellow man is the same as eating steak my reply would be, so? That's not the topic.
 
TheNextEra said:
How do you set such a constant though. No matter what you are talking about right/wrong etc are purely subjective to the society.

Society dictates what is right/wrong, immoral/moral, legal/illegal.

right now abortion is legal in our society. So do you set your standards to society or do you make your own? And if you make your own, what sets you apart from others that make their own.

Tiller's killer made his own standards on what should be legal/illegal against society. So if Tiller's killer is rewarded, than why shouldn't others that have differing vies on what should be illegal/legal?
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When your moral convictions are strong enough you make your own; society be damned. I wouldn't turn my back on any strong moral conviction just because society told me so; ever. If enough people share your moral conviction you may bring about a revolution; if not you'll be the lone objector. So?

Would you turn your back on a strong moral conviction because somebody told you to?

If you thought something was inherently evil would it matter one iota if others came along and said, "meh there is no such thing as right and wrong; it's all relative!"
 
TheNextEra said:
How do you set such a constant though. No matter what you are talking about right/wrong etc are purely subjective to the society.

Society dictates what is right/wrong, immoral/moral, legal/illegal.

right now abortion is legal in our society. So do you set your standards to society or do you make your own? And if you make your own, what sets you apart from others that make their own.

Tiller's killer made his own standards on what should be legal/illegal against society. So if Tiller's killer is rewarded, than why shouldn't others that have differing vies on what should be illegal/legal?
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Tiller's killer should be fried as soon as his trial is over. Anything else is a miscarriage of justice.

I think, for the purposes of this debate: killing defenseless people is wrong. Tiller was just as defenseless as the 22 week old fetus.

If that constant is set, it simplifies that aspect of the complex issue so that it can be explored without fine tooth combing minutiae that are nothing more than an intential quagmire to escape from the real issue.
 
jallman said:
Tiller's killer should be fried as soon as his trial is over. Anything else is a miscarriage of justice.

I think, for the purposes of this debate: killing defenseless people is wrong. Tiller was just as defenseless as the 22 week old fetus.

If that constant is set, it simplifies that aspect of the complex issue so that it can be explored without fine tooth combing minutiae that are nothing more than an intential quagmire to escape from the real issue.
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Agreed, 'cept I'd like to see him jailed for life. I don't much like the death penalty for folks who are easily locked away. I'd have preferred to see Tiller locked up too.
 
talloulou said:
The majority of society values human life.
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Wrong, the majority allow abortions to happen. Therefore, your comment is incorrect.

talloulou said:
=So they're wrong.
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According to you and other Pro-Lifers. Sorry, but that doesn't make them wrong.

talloulou said:
The majority of prochoicers value the lives of their fellow man over animals they just have convinced themselves their fellow man is not in the womb.
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They feel the WOMAN has the right to decide. She is the controlling factor.

You don't like that, well society feels otherwise. That doesn't make them wrong by your comment alone.

talloulou said:
As far as PETA goes it is irrelevant. If you want me to agree that there are PETA members who have strong convictions that raping and killing your fellow man is the same as eating steak my reply would be, so? That's not the topic.
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It isn't irrelevant when we start talking about people ACTING OUT AGAINST what society has to say.

You feel the abortion doctor killer killed someone that deserved to die.

A PETA member would feel the same in regards to a PETA member killing a slaughter house person.

That doesn't make it a right thing.
 
jallman said:
Tiller's killer should be fried as soon as his trial is over. Anything else is a miscarriage of justice.

I think, for the purposes of this debate: killing defenseless people is wrong. Tiller was just as defenseless as the 22 week old fetus.

If that constant is set, it simplifies that aspect of the complex issue so that it can be explored without fine tooth combing minutiae that are nothing more than an intential quagmire to escape from the real issue.
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I don't disagree with you by your comments alone, but you are setting the constant.

That is what I am getting at. The constant is set by society, not the individual.

The constant is abortions (with limitations) are LEGAL, killing an unarmed person in a church is not. THOSE are the constants that society has set.

You may not like those constants, but at this time, those are the constants.
 
TheNextEra said:
I don't disagree with you by your comments alone, but you are setting the constant.

That is what I am getting at. The constant is set by society, not the individual.

The constant is abortions (with limitations) are LEGAL, killing an unarmed person in a church is not. THOSE are the constants that society has set.
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Then you leave no room for debate which is kind of disappointing.
 
jallman said:
Then you leave no room for debate which is kind of disappointing.
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You asked for CONSTANTS. The CONSTANTS right now are what is.

You are arguing what should be, and that is fine and that is where we disagree.

Other than "what is right now" there are no constants, that is where there is room to debate.
 
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