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Man accused of killing abortion doc says he's being 'treated like a criminal'

I have a question for everyone who has made claims about Tiller being a baby killer in regard to these late term abortions.


Where are you getting your information regarding the reasons these women had for the late term abortions/Tiller performing them?

That's it. That's my question. I really, really want a response.


I participated in another thread on this issue and I didn't see any links to the reasons for the late term abortions. I just see accusations thrown around that Tiller was a baby killer and destroyed perfectly sound babies, which implies that the women who sought out his expertise were just looking to abort their late term baby for kicks.

It must be that Tiller and the women who had late term abortions were all just into it for the sake of killing these perfectly sound babies or there were medical reasons behind it.


Which sounds more reasonable?


:confused:
 
It makes no difference which, yours and his are different, because he doesn't consider a fetus a baby, and you do.



But other Americans don't get to have views because yours are so accurate ?

It isn't about your religion, it is about respecting others right to decide theirs.

:roll:

Pray tell. When did I ever say other American's "don't get to have views" because mine is so accurate? I'll save you the trouble. I didn't. In fact, I recently stated, and have always said, (even on this thread perhaps, see post# 309,) that my views are my own and even though I am firm in my views I do not feel I have any right shoving my views down the throats of others.

And no, it isn't about my religion. I do not have a religion. Strike two.

I think, underneath it all, in your attempts to bait me into an abortion argument, you FAILED simply because you didn't do your background check on my positions. OR, you must be thinking about somebody entirely different which is an honest mistake.

If you want to address me, fine. But please come better prepared. I hate it when I'm the one who has to tell the guy at the party that he is walking around with his zipper down. It embarasses us both.
 
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I have a question for everyone who has made claims about Tiller being a baby killer in regard to these late term abortions.


Where are you getting your information regarding the reasons these women had for the late term abortions/Tiller performing them?

That's it. That's my question. I really, really want a response.


I participated in another thread on this issue and I didn't see any links to the reasons for the late term abortions. I just see accusations thrown around that Tiller was a baby killer and destroyed perfectly sound babies, which implies that the women who sought out his expertise were just looking to abort their late term baby for kicks.

It must be that Tiller and the women who had late term abortions were all just into it for the sake of killing these perfectly sound babies or there were medical reasons behind it.


Which sounds more reasonable?


:confused:

I'll answer that. The state of Kansas senate passed legislation which would require Tiller to report actual reasons for the post viability abortions he performed. Dr. Tiller did not want to report actual reasons. The governor of the time (our current Obama appointed Secretary of Health), who accepted and even got caught lying about Tiller contributions vetoed said legislation.

So, essentially while Kansas law currently has a 22 week limit on abortions and late term abortions may only be done when there is an irreversible maternal health threat never does the dr. have to list in the chart or report to the state what that irreversible health threat was. Never. So essentially as long as a dr. is willing to do the abortion you are good to go, there is basically no limit at all in Kansas other than a drs. conscious.

The governor listed 2 reasons for her veto of the legislation. The first one was absolute b.s.: privacy. The senate passed legislation was not asking for copies of patient charts or names of patients. Currently drs. just list gestational age, age of the mother, and 2 drs. sig. The new legislation would have required they report gestational age, age of mother, 2 drs. sigs, and the diagnosis which met the irreversible health threat condition. Names were never an issue so the privacy factor was complete and utter b.s.

Her other reason for her veto was lawsuits. She had no interest in having Dr. Tiller forced into court to defend every late term abortion he did that failed to meet the language of irreversible health threat probably because there would be so many. But still, a b.s. excuse.
 
I'll answer that. The state of Kansas senate passed legislation which would require Tiller to report actual reasons for the post viability abortions he performed. Dr. Tiller did not want to report actual reasons. The governor of the time (our current Obama appointed Secretary of Health), who accepted and even got caught lying about Tiller contributions vetoed said legislation.

So, essentially while Kansas law currently has a 22 week limit on abortions and late term abortions may only be done when there is an irreversible maternal health threat never does the dr. have to list in the chart or report to the state what that irreversible health threat was. Never. So essentially as long as a dr. is willing to do the abortion you are good to go, there is basically no limit at all in Kansas other than a drs. conscious.

The governor listed 2 reasons for her veto of the legislation. The first one was absolute b.s.: privacy. The senate passed legislation was not asking for copies of patient charts or names of patients. Currently drs. just list gestational age, age of the mother, and 2 drs. sig. The new legislation would have required they report gestational age, age of mother, 2 drs. sigs, and the diagnosis which met the irreversible health threat condition. Names were never an issue so the privacy factor was complete and utter b.s.

Her other reason for her veto was lawsuits. She had no interest in having Dr. Tiller forced into court to defend every late term abortion he did that failed to meet the language of irreversible health threat probably because there would be so many. But still, a b.s. excuse.


I understand that you're against Tiller and late term abortions but you did not answer my question and I don't feel like being side tracked.

You were one of the posters insisting that Tiller was murdering babies. I'm asking where you got your information from. What sources exists that explain the reasons for the late term abortions?

As I said above, either he and the women who had late term abortions were doing it for kicks or else there were medical reasons. Which is it?

:confused:
 
I understand that you're against Tiller and late term abortions but you did not answer my question and I don't feel like being side tracked.

You were one of the posters insisting that Tiller was murdering babies. I'm asking where you got your information from. What sources exists that explain the reasons for the late term abortions?

As I said above, either he and the women who had late term abortions were doing it for kicks or else there were medical reasons. Which is it?

:confused:

You're being obtuse intentionally.

There is a law which states there must be a diagnosis which accounts for an irreversible maternal health threat in order to perform abortions after 22 weeks.

There was political foul play, a corrupt governor, a corrupt DA, a fired state prosecutor, etc. all in an effort that Dr. Tiller never be held accountable to the current law on the books.

Perhaps for you it is ok to just say well Dr. Tiller doesn't need to be accountable and his word is all the ok you need to see that he met the current laws on the books.

For me and many others that is unacceptable.

If he didn't operate outside the law then there would be no need to dance around the legislation. He'd happily list for each patient what the irreversible health threat was. Why would such a request be viewed as so problematic that he had to pay off a governor to obtain a veto?

The state had hired a dr. to review Dr. Tillers records. That dr. is on file stating that the records showed no irreversible health threat for many of the women Tiller performed late term abortions on.

However since the governor made it so Tiller didn't have to list any accountable reason he could never be tried on any charges regarding whether or not an abortion met the required current law.
 
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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mviFMpy_sBU]YouTube - Dr. Tiller's Abortion Records Exposed[/ame]
 
You're being obtuse intentionally.

There is a law which states there must be a diagnosis which accounts for an irreversible maternal health threat in order to perform abortions after 22 weeks.

There was political foul play, a corrupt governor, a corrupt DA, a fired state prosecutor, etc. all in an effort that Dr. Tiller never be held accountable to the current law on the books.

Perhaps for you it is ok to just say well Dr. Tiller doesn't need to be accountable and his word is all the ok you need to see that he met the current laws on the books.

For me and many others that is unacceptable.

If he didn't operate outside the law then there would be no need to dance around the legislation. He'd happily list for each patient what the irreversible health threat was. Why would such a request be viewed as so problematic that he had to pay off a governor to obtain a veto?

The state had hired a dr. to review Dr. Tillers records. That dr. is on file stating that the records showed no irreversible health threat for many of the women Tiller performed late term abortions on.

However since the governor made it so Tiller didn't have to list any accountable reason he could never be tried on any charges regarding whether or not an abortion met the required current law.


You still didn't answer Missy's question.

You allege, without much (if anything) in the way of evidence of some conspiracy to keep Tiller from being held legally accountable for . . . whatever, but you haven't provided any evidence for the reasons behind the late term abortions (which is what Missy was alluding to).
 
You're being obtuse intentionally.

Since I feel the same way about you and your responses on this subject, we're on even footing.


The state had hired a dr. to review Dr. Tillers records. That dr. is on file stating that the records showed no irreversible health threat for many of the women Tiller performed late term abortions on.


How many is many? That's what I want to know. How many is that? .375%, 1%, 10%, 50%, 100%????

Also, how many late term abortions were performed because the baby would have died shortly after birth? How many?


The answer appears to be that you don't know, Talloulou. And it goes to the heart of my earlier post. You, and other posters like you, who are making outrageous claims about Tiller AND the women who had late term abortions just glomped on to an emotional tear about viable babies when you have NO IDEA.

NONE. ZERO. ZILTCH

:roll:
 
You still didn't answer Missy's question.

You allege, without much (if anything) in the way of evidence of some conspiracy to keep Tiller from being held legally accountable for . . . whatever, but you haven't provided any evidence for the reasons behind the late term abortions (which is what Missy was alluding to).

Dr. Tiller does not need to give reasons. So there are no reasons ever brought before the courts.

The one dr. who was brought in by the state to review Tillers charts has gone on record multiple times stating that Tiller does not meet the criteria of current Kansas legislation requiring an irreversible health threat. The prosecutor who hired this dr. was fired.

Currently no dr. in Kansas needs ever to list any reason for a late term abortion if he doesn't want to. Thus the 22 week cut off law is rendered essentially moot.

While Missy may be happy to know I can't give her statistics she ought to be asking why she's not disturbed that she can't either. That there are none.
 
Since I feel the same way about you and your responses on this subject, we're on even footing.





How many is many? That's what I want to know. How many is that? .375%, 1%, 10%, 50%, 100%????

Also, how many late term abortions were performed because the baby would have died shortly after birth? How many?


The answer appears to be that you don't know, Talloulou. And it goes to the heart of my earlier post. You, and other posters like you, who are making outrageous claims about Tiller AND the women who had late term abortions just glomped on to an emotional tear about viable babies when you have NO IDEA.

NONE. ZERO. ZILTCH

:roll:

But you don't know either and seem quite satisfied with that. No matter how you feel about abortion you should be able to recognize when people are dancing around the laws. Why does it not concern you that there is a current law in Kansas which outlaws abortion without an irreversible health threat to the mother while simultaneously no dr. ever has to state a single reason, not one, for any late term abortion??
 
You're being obtuse intentionally.

No, she's not. But you're sure busy with the undocumented and unproven wild accusations, aren't you?

If he didn't operate outside the law then there would be no need to dance around the legislation. He'd happily list for each patient what the irreversible health threat was. Why would such a request be viewed as so problematic that he had to pay off a governor to obtain a veto?

Proof? Anything? Anything at all?

However since the governor made it so Tiller didn't have to list any accountable reason he could never be tried on any charges regarding whether or not an abortion met the required current law.

By your own words, you admit you do not have any verifiable documentation regarding the exact reason this or that woman went through with a late-term abortion. Yet you've filled this thread and others with outrageous accusations based on absolutely NO proof, all the while insisting your biases are fact.

DROP IT, for ****'s sake, unless or until you can come up with anything resembling fact. Your little dance of unfounded rage has grown incredibly tiresome.
 
While Missy may be happy to know I can't give her statistics she ought to be asking why she's not disturbed that she can't either. That there are none.

I'm not disturbed because I find it difficult to believe that Tiller, and the women who sought him out for late term abortions, were just out to kill viable babies.

I don't buy it and I question the reasoning skills of those that do.


:2wave:
 
Dr. Tiller does not need to give reasons. So there are no reasons ever brought before the courts.

The one dr. who was brought in by the state to review Tillers charts has gone on record multiple times stating that Tiller does not meet the criteria of current Kansas legislation requiring an irreversible health threat. The prosecutor who hired this dr. was fired.

Currently no dr. in Kansas needs ever to list any reason for a late term abortion if he doesn't want to. Thus the 22 week cut off law is rendered essentially moot.

While Missy may be happy to know I can't give her statistics she ought to be asking why she's not disturbed that she can't either. That there are none.

I'm not asking Dr. Tiller to prove anything (not that he can now). I'm asking YOU to back up your allegations and give a straightforward answer to Missy's question.

If you have no stats to show the reasons for the late term abortions Tiller performed, then you have no business making the allegations you're making.
 
No, she's not. But you're sure busy with the undocumented and unproven wild accusations, aren't you?



Proof? Anything? Anything at all?



By your own words, you admit you do not have any verifiable documentation regarding the exact reason this or that woman went through with a late-term abortion. Yet you've filled this thread and others with outrageous accusations based on absolutely NO proof, all the while insisting your biases are fact.

DROP IT, for ****'s sake, unless or until you can come up with anything resembling fact. Your little dance of unfounded rage has grown incredibly tiresome.

What would you like to deny about what I've said?

The governor took monies from Tiller, later lied about them, got caught lying, and had to admit, "oops..." Want to deny that?

The Kansas state senate aimed to clarify the law by requesting that drs. list the actual irreversible health threat in their reports. Governor vetoed that. Are you denying that?

She stated "privacy" as her main concern when names of patients was in no way to be part of the reporting. Are you denying that?

The one dr. who dared to review Tiller's records before the state prosecutor got fired claims on record that Tiller does abortions and the charts show no real psychiatric condition or any other diagnosis that would meet the current Kansas law. Do you want to deny that?

What exactly that I've said are you denying? I've given news reports showing the governor lied, showing the governor vetoed legislation, etc. I've given you a state hired Dr. on record talking about Tiller's charts and their lack of an irreversible health threat to the mother.

Where exactly have I been proven wrong in anything I've said?
 
I'm not disturbed because I find it difficult to believe that Tiller, and the women who sought him out for late term abortions, were just out to kill viable babies.

I don't buy it and I question the reasoning skills of those that do.


:2wave:

Well forgive me for not having the same faith in women and drs. There are corrupt drs. Likewise there are women who birth babies and then aim to shove them down the toilet at McDonalds, toss them in dumpsters, stick 'em in a car trunk, or bury them in their backyard.
 
No, she's not. But you're sure busy with the undocumented and unproven wild accusations, aren't you?



Proof? Anything? Anything at all?



By your own words, you admit you do not have any verifiable documentation regarding the exact reason this or that woman went through with a late-term abortion. Yet you've filled this thread and others with outrageous accusations based on absolutely NO proof, all the while insisting your biases are fact.

DROP IT, for ****'s sake, unless or until you can come up with anything resembling fact. Your little dance of unfounded rage has grown incredibly tiresome.

There's no need for your tone. I have given you a dr. who was hired by the state to review Tiller's records. He has declared repeatedly on record that Tiller was not following current Kansas law and that he saw charts where there was no satisfactory proof that the late term abortion met the irreversible health threat criteria. If your claim is that he's a liar then fine. Where's the dr. who reviewed the charts and found them to be in order??????

I'll help you. There is none. Because the governor made it so that the question of whether any single late term abortion meets the criteria is one that may never be asked.
 
Where exactly have I been proven wrong in anything I've said?


Tall, I don't know how I can be any clearer. The accusations around Tiller are that he was killing perfectly healthy, sound, viable babies at some outrageous rate a year......

Where is your proof that these babies were healthy, sound and viable or that the mother's life wasn't endangered. Don't you think it's a little bit odd that Tiller and all of these women, who had late term abortions, were just out to kill these healthy and viable babies?

Does that really sound reasonable to you?

:confused:
 
Well forgive me for not having the same faith in women and drs. There are corrupt drs. Likewise there are women who birth babies and then aim to shove them down the toilet at McDonalds, toss them in dumpsters, stick 'em in a car trunk, or bury them in their backyard.

I don't see what any of that has to do with the lack of credible evidence for the allegations that Dr. Tiller performed late term abortions on women for reasons other than medical necessity.
 
There's no need for your tone. I have given you a dr. who was hired by the state to review Tiller's records. He has declared repeatedly on record that Tiller was not following current Kansas law and that he saw charts where there was no satisfactory proof that the late term abortion met the irreversible health threat criteria. If your claim is that he's a liar then fine. Where's the dr. who reviewed the charts and found them to be in order??????

I'll help you. There is none. Because the governor made it so that the question of whether any single late term abortion meets the criteria is one that may never be asked.

Wasn't Tiller acquitted by a jury in a criminal trial? Are you suggesting jury tampering?
 
Well forgive me for not having the same faith in women and drs. There are corrupt drs. Likewise there are women who birth babies and then aim to shove them down the toilet at McDonalds, toss them in dumpsters, stick 'em in a car trunk, or bury them in their backyard.

Yes there are, unfortunately. That doesn't make your case though.

You can't point to the few to base your claim that Tiller was only performing late term abortions AND that women sought him out for late term abortions for the thrill of it all
 
Wasn't Tiller acquitted by a jury in a criminal trial? Are you suggesting jury tampering?

Many of the charges against him were in fact dropped as the prosecutor in charge of his case was fired and a new guy brought in.

The question of whether Tiller was performing abortions that failed to meet the state criteria of an irreversible maternal health risk was never actually addressed in court.

It's actually the only unfortunate part of his being shot down. He was due back in court and I believe eventually they would have nailed him no matter how many friends in high places were willing to do gymnastics for him.
 
Many of the charges against him were in fact dropped as the prosecutor in charge of his case was fired and a new guy brought in.

The question of whether Tiller was performing abortions that failed to meet the state criteria of an irreversible maternal health risk was never actually addressed in court.

It's actually the only unfortunate part of his being shot down. He was due back in court and I believe eventually they would have nailed him no matter how many friends in high places were willing to do gymnastics for him.


Holy smoke! :shock:
 
Tall, I don't know how I can be any clearer. The accusations around Tiller are that he was killing perfectly healthy, sound, viable babies at some outrageous rate a year......

Where is your proof that these babies were healthy, sound and viable or that the mother's life wasn't endangered. Don't you think it's a little bit odd that Tiller and all of these women, who had late term abortions, were just out to kill these healthy and viable babies?

Does that really sound reasonable to you?

:confused:

Again, a dr. was hired by the state to review the records. That dr. is on record claiming Tiller was not following Kansas law. The prosecutor was fired and the drs. testimony never brought to court.

His testimony was never replaced. It's not as if they said, "That dr. is a flake and we don't trust him so instead of using his testimony we are going to have the records reviewed by someone else."

No. Rather than deny that Tiller's records showed what the reviewing Dr. said they showed the governor declared, "Quit looking at Tiller's records. They don't matter. He doesn't need reasons. "

Does that sound reasonable to you???
 
Yes there are, unfortunately. That doesn't make your case though.

You can't point to the few to base your claim that Tiller was only performing late term abortions AND that women sought him out for late term abortions for the thrill of it all

Exactly. I can't seem to fathom why a woman would carry a baby for 7 months and then decide out of the blue that they want to get rid of it. It just doesn't make sense, unless there were health factors at play.
 
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