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UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

PeteEU said:
That is why parties like the UKIP, BNP and other far right nationalist often racist parties get high numbers.
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UKIP are not a far-right nationalist group. What's more I suspect you know that. The attempt to tarnish a simply Eurosceptic, avowedly libertarian party by calling it far-right and linking it to the BNP is frankly rather pathetic.
 
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Harry Guerrilla said:
Anytime someone creates a central governing authority, it slowly grabs more and more power. Over time the EU will be the central, powerful government and the separate nations will merely be states like the U.S. has.

I never understand why people are so willing to give up their own sovereignty.
There is no logical reason for it.
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In Britain they simply aren't. The people are against the current course of the EU, the three major parties simply have various levels of support for it, so nothing can be done. But yes in some EU nations the people do strangely seem to be for it.
 
Wessexman said:
In Britain they simply aren't. The people are against the current course of the EU, the three major parties simply have various levels of support for it, so nothing can be done. But yes in some EU nations the people do strangely seem to be for it.
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I hate to say it but I suspect all the countries of Europe will loose their sovereignty soon enough.

It reminds me of the Federalists vs. the Anti-Federalists in a way.
 
I've always believed that the solution is to stop voting in members of the bourgeoise or ruling class into parliament... but it seems like the candidates for voters are always industry owners or rich bureaucrats. There need to be more middle class members in Parliament. The rich are too disconnected from the needs of society.

Harry Guerrilla said:
Anytime someone creates a central governing authority, it slowly grabs more and more power. Over time the EU will be the central, powerful government and the separate nations will merely be states like the U.S. has.

I never understand why people are so willing to give up their own sovereignty.
There is no logical reason for it.
Click to expand...

The EU Parliament, in my view, is unlawful in the first place. It received mandate from the different governments in the EU, but the constituents of those governments had no say, no vote. Now they are expected to vote for members of this new government. Participation in it is already being coerced.

People will vote because they are told to. Period. The average voter is not aware that their freedoms and prosperity are the way they are because it is written on a sheet of paper somewhere. They take for granted what they have. It is for this reason that the developed Western world has much more to lose than nations who are infant democracies or having civil unrest.

Furthermore, people don't know what popular protest means anymore. The majority have to take to the streets or nothing is going to happen. Minorities are easily put down by riot squads and government thugs.
 
I've always believed that the solution is to stop voting in members of the bourgeoise or ruling class into parliament... but it seems like the candidates for voters are always industry owners or rich bureaucrats. There need to be more middle class members in Parliament. The rich are too disconnected from the needs of society.

Harry Guerrilla said:
Anytime someone creates a central governing authority, it slowly grabs more and more power. Over time the EU will be the central, powerful government and the separate nations will merely be states like the U.S. has.

I never understand why people are so willing to give up their own sovereignty.
There is no logical reason for it.
Click to expand...

The EU Parliament, in my view, is unlawful in the first place. It received mandate from the different governments in the EU, but the constituents of those governments had no say, no vote. Now they are expected to vote for members of this new government. Participation in it is already being coerced.

People will vote because they are told to. Period. The average voter is not aware that their freedoms and prosperity are the way they are because it is written on a sheet of paper somewhere. They take for granted what they have. It is for this reason that the developed Western world has much more to lose than nations who are infant democracies or having civil unrest.

Furthermore, people don't know what popular protest means anymore. The majority have to take to the streets or nothing is going to happen. Minorities are easily put down by riot squads and government thugs.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I hate to say it but I suspect all the countries of Europe will loose their sovereignty soon enough.

It reminds me of the Federalists vs. the Anti-Federalists in a way.
Click to expand...

I agree, even in Eurosceptic Britain . There are differences obviously; the nations are more unique than the states but on the other hand there is not that very cautious view towards centralisation and the usurpation of the power of the states by the central gov't that even many of the federalists shared.
 
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Harry Guerrilla said:
I hate to say it but I suspect all the countries of Europe will loose their sovereignty soon enough.

It reminds me of the Federalists vs. the Anti-Federalists in a way.
Click to expand...

It's not just Europe. In North America, the governments of the U.S., Canada and Mexico formed the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America behind closed doors. There were massive protests and the protests got shut down. This agreement loosened border trade, allows "security" to be shared (including military crossing borders), and was completely undemocratic. Aside from the singular leaders of these countries, Congress, Canadian Parliament, and the Mexican cabinet did not have any vote on the matter.

I swear... these people who sign these things into law must work for a higher organization. I know that sounds like conspiracy theory, but I can't figure out what goes on in their heads. It's like they are operating on an agenda completely separate from government.
 
Wessexman said:
I agree, even in Eurosceptic Britain . There are differences obviously; the nations are more unique than the state but on the other hand there is not that very cautious idea towards centralisation and the usurpation of the power of the state by the central gov't that even many of the federalists shared.
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I'm pretty well convinced that it is the natural order of things.

As long as democratic voting exists the cycle will continue.

Centralization, fracturing, repeat.


Orius said:
It's not just Europe. In North America, the governments of the U.S., Canada and Mexico formed the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America behind closed doors. There were massive protests and the protests got shut down. This agreement loosened border trade, allows "security" to be shared (including military crossing borders), and was completely undemocratic. Aside from the singular leaders of these countries, Congress, Canadian Parliament, and the Mexican cabinet did not have any vote on the matter.

I swear... these people who sign these things into law must work for a higher organization. I know that sounds like conspiracy theory, but I can't figure out what goes on in their heads. It's like they are operating on an agenda completely separate from government.
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Money and power. Instead of one king, dictator or despot they share a higher order of power than the rest of the population.

The two major parties in the U.S. are always at each others throats except when an outside force challenges their shared power.

They then collude to push away that threat.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I'm pretty well convinced that it is the natural order of things.

As long as democratic voting exists the cycle will continue.

Centralization, fracturing, repeat.
.
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Indeed, democracy of the representative kind(and the direct but that is a different story.) has a lot of dangers inherent in it.
These need carefully off-setting which is something modern liberalism has little time for, combined with the neoliberalism and such Orius talks of then it is a great recipe for this kind of despotism and centralisation.
 
Apocalypse said:
Heard some rumors about the far-right gaining power in Europe.
Is there any truth to this?
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It depends on the country.

In the Netherlands the extreme right has a charismatic leader, so yes, they're gaining power.

In France, Le Pen (extreme right) gets really old while Sarkozy (President) is already very right wing, so they're not gaining much power

In Flanders, the extreme right is associated to a nationalist struggle (they want to be independent) and they have very efficient leaders, so they usually score quite high. But in Wallonia the extreme right leaders are fat morons so they're stuck at 2 or 3%


I don't know for the other countries, but my point is that the scores of the extreme right depend heavily on the capacity of the party leaders, and thus there are big differences between countries
 
Wessexman said:
I'll just say I disagree. He seems about as rightwing as David Cameron or even Blair, although I'm not a complete expert on him.
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In most French medias he is seen as very right wing, that's why Le Pen got so few votes when Sarkozy was elected
 
Wessexman said:
He doesn't seem that way to me, particularly in how he has acted but I'm no expert.
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Look at how people have transformed his political posters:

Affiche%20Sarkozy.jpg


the real poster: "together, everything is possible"

affiche_sarkozy.jpg


then it became: "together without the poors, the foreigners, the left, the extreme left, the communists, the gays, the disabled, the journalists, the blacks, the arabs, and the guy who stole my wife, everything is possible"

AFFICHE-SARKOZY_3+copier.jpg


"Together, everything is possible. Even the worse"

:rofl
 
B L Zeebub said:
..... I would like to see a "united states of europe" complete with its own army that includes Turkey
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I too have been thinking this would be a good idea, though I have recently become a bit apprehensive. Europe could change - it is not impossible that the fascist far right could gain a hold.

PeteEU said:
Personally I think it also reflects how people see the EU parliament. They still think that the EU parliament has no power (aka the parliamen 15 years ago), which is only partly true. While most power in the EU still resides with the member governments, the EU parliament does have its say, especially when it comes to the budget and EU commissioners. But yea it is not a "true" parliament like most countries have.
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I was hearing during the build up to these elections that something like 75% to 80% of our laws now come from the EU. It is certainly time to take notice and to be properly informed.

The only parties which even bothered to send me a leaflet before this election were the BNP and UKIP.

Orius said:
The EU Parliament, in my view, is unlawful in the first place. It received mandate from the different governments in the EU, but the constituents of those governments had no say, no vote. Now they are expected to vote for members of this new government. Participation in it is already being coerced.
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I imagine it is because of the increase in powers that people are talking more and being aware more of the EU. I think before our major interest here in the UK was the European Court which we found helped us a lot.

Now that the EU is getting more and more powers of course we are going to get more and more interested.
 
alexa said:
I was hearing during the build up to these elections that something like 75% to 80% of our laws now come from the EU. It is certainly time to take notice and to be properly informed.
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Now that is clear cut fear mongering. 75% to 80%? What the hell do they base that on? I guess that 75% of our laws made are on agriculture...

The only parties which even bothered to send me a leaflet before this election were the BNP and UKIP.
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Because both parties see this as their time to gain some press time. They after all dont stand a chance if there was a real election.
 
Wessexman said:
UKIP are not a far-right nationalist group. What's more I suspect you know that. The attempt to tarnish a simply Eurosceptic, avowedly libertarian party by calling it far-right and linking it to the BNP is frankly rather pathetic.
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Tarnish? So you are saying that the United Kingdom Independence Party are not a nationalist group? Could have fooled me that is for sure. They claim to be a libertarian political party, in other words they cant or wont call themselves conservatives but in essence they are right wing. They call themselves "non-racist" to distinguish themselves from BNP, but we all know that in Europe the racist parties are almost universal right wing parties, and many of them are hiding behind a legitimacy of calling themselves "non racist". Le Pen's party calls it self as non racist.. and do you seriously believe they are?
 
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PeteEU said:
Tarnish? So you are saying that the United Kingdom Independence Party are not a nationalist group?
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I'm saying they're not a far-right nationalist group, which was your original unsupported assertion. The term nationalist is vague.


They claim to be a libertarian political party, in other words they cant or wont call themselves conservatives but in essence they are right wing.
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So? The Tories are supposedly as well. Only to the hyperpartisan is rightwing the same as the far-right like the BNP.

They call themselves "non-racist" to distinguish themselves from BNP, but we all know that in Europe the racist parties are almost universal right wing parties, and many of them are hiding behind a legitimacy of calling themselves "non racist". Le Pen's party calls it self as non racist.. and do you seriously believe they are?
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Is this supposed to prove your previous hyperpartisan slur? It doesn't even attempt to deal with it.

If one looks at UKIP they are not far-right at all. They are simply very similar to quite mainstream conservative or libertarian-conservative currents in England with an extra appeal to anyone Eurosceptic. To attempt tarnish them by linking them with the far-right and BNP, particularly when there is no attempt to even back it up, is simply hyperpartisan hackery.
 
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bub said:
Look at how people have transformed his political posters:

Affiche%20Sarkozy.jpg


the real poster: "together, everything is possible"

affiche_sarkozy.jpg


then it became: "together without the poors, the foreigners, the left, the extreme left, the communists, the gays, the disabled, the journalists, the blacks, the arabs, and the guy who stole my wife, everything is possible"

AFFICHE-SARKOZY_3+copier.jpg


"Together, everything is possible. Even the worse"

:rofl
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Quite humourous, but hardly serious evidence. Blair was often called a fascist.
 
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Obama's Party in Germany.

DSC_0001_600x902.jpg


When folks here start having verbal orgasms about Obama, I ask them if they're ready to vote for Oskar Lafontaine, Gregor Gysi, and ol'Biscuit in the poster.

They look horrified, and usually say something along the lines of "hell no".
When they're told this is Obama's political equivalent in Germany... they get quite quiet.

.
 
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