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Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

scourge99 said:
What exactly does this 'oh so elusive and subjective goal of attaining the "moral high ground" accomplish?
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I think GWB even agreed there was a difference between us and the terrorists. Are you saying there isn't? There are no "good guys and bad guys?" Please clarify.

When we become a nation which acquiesces to the subjective moral views of the weak-kneed and cowardly then we hamstring ourselves and our future.
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This is completely ridiculous. Nobody here is weak-kneed or cowardly about this issue. That is a common tactic that is flawed to it's very core, extremely lazy, and disingenuous at best (I'm being kind with my words).

We are advocating that we don't act like those we claim to despise. Nobody is saying that we stop fighting terrorist organizations or abandon Democracy in favor of being subjugated by tyrannical foreign powers. Quite the opposite.

We are advocating that we fight the good fight. That we maintain a legitimate position of righteousness in how we prosecute our enemies. That we don't sink so low as to do completely unnecessary acts of brutality on prisoners for the purpose of fishing for information.

We should be above all that. We should be able to legitimately say "we are right, we are fighting the good fight, and we are above the cowardly and repugnant actions of our enemies."

We should be able to say that.
 
Lerxst said:
IThis is completely ridiculous. Nobody here is weak-kneed or cowardly about this issue. That is a common tactic that is flawed to it's very core, extremely lazy, and disingenuous at best (I'm being kind with my words).
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I think you're wrong. I say those who would abdicate intrinsic human rights out of fear are, in fact, weak-kneed and cowardly.

What was it that Ben Franklin said?

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security.
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Also, guys on the interwebs who refer to 16 year Army vets as weak-kneed and/or cowardly deserve a solid ass-kicking.
 
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Catz Part Deux said:
11 days isn't prolonged?
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Eleven days of WHAT? What part is severe? Where is it an attempt to illegally illicit confessions?

You can't even come close to a factually argument that supports the farcical claim that water boarding meets the definition of torture.
 
Moderator's Warning:
There's a large amount of trolling posts along with completley uncivil flaming posts focusing simply on running down other posters. These need to stop, immedietely. There will be no flushing of this thread, but there will be thread bans and points for anyone that continues it or attempts to bait others into it. End it
 
Catz Part Deux said:
1. It makes it more likely that the local populace in places like Iraq, those who AREN'T fleabag wannabe terrorists (aka, the overwhelming majority), will be receptive to our forces there.
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how so?

2. It makes it less likely that said individuals will join organizations and attack our military personnel on the grounds that we look exactly like Saddam Hussein.
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because Osama and any other enemy has such a difficult time creating or fabricating propaganda otherwise?

3. It makes it less likely that our military personnel will, in return, be tortured by our enemies, who can offer up our actions as justification for their own (what's good for the goose is good to the gander).
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:roll: this is a worn out falsehood. Our enemies torture, rape, and kill our soldiers, contractors and civilians no matter what our stance on torture is. They always have, always will.

4. It helps us remain true to our national heritage and avoid the slippery slope of undermining core principles such as:
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all you had to say is "slippery slope". Dismissed.

"All men are created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights..."
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inalienable rights which we alienate every day with executions, prisons, etc. Inalienable right is an oxymoron.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
I think you're wrong. I say those who would abdicate intrinsic human rights out of fear are, in fact, weak-kneed and cowardly.

What was it that Ben Franklin said?
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Well to be honest I was referring to those that were being unfairly labled...but wait, you already knew that.

;)
 
scourge99 said:
how so?
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Given that our role in Iraq is now one of policing rather than of combat operations, it is a basic premise of community-oriented policing that you never want to act in such a way that you alienate the local populace. You must be seen to be above reproach. If we want Iraqis and others to buy into the idea of constitutional republics, intrinsic human rights, and the creation of a free and democratic society, we must walk the walk.

I support the mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is far too important to allow partisan politics to stop the work that has been done, and the sacrifices that have been made.

because Osama and any other enemy has such a difficult time creating or fabricating propaganda otherwise?
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The local populace in Iraq will quickly tire of terrorist actions directed at them, as long as our men and women are performing their jobs effectively. Propaganda always exists...you don't want to give the propagandists further ammunition that undermines our mission.

Propaganda is one thing, but WE REALLY DID THIS STUFF. Are you blind to the longterm ramifications of this?

:roll: this is a worn out falsehood. Our enemies torture, rape, and kill our soldiers, contractors and civilians no matter what our stance on torture is. They always have, always will.
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It largely depends upon the enemy. We will be going to war sometime in the future against a different enemy and in different circumstances. The actions of today determine how our personnel will be treated in the future.

all you had to say is "slippery slope". Dismissed.
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Weak sauce.

inalienable rights which we alienate every day with executions, prisons, etc. Inalienable right is an oxymoron.
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A person who is charged with a crime, receives a fair and impartial trial and access to counsel, and is adjudicated by a jury of his peers -- has received his inalienable rights.

The people we're discussing have not received any of that.
 
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Lerxst said:
We are advocating that we don't act like those we claim to despise. Nobody is saying that we stop fighting terrorist organizations or abandon Democracy in favor of being subjugated by tyrannical foreign powers. Quite the opposite.
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The farcical attempt to claim that we do act like our enemies is asinine and cannot be supported by REALITY or the FACTS.

Lerxst said:
We are advocating that we fight the good fight. That we maintain a legitimate position of righteousness in how we prosecute our enemies. That we don't sink so low as to do completely unnecessary acts of brutality on prisoners for the purpose of fishing for information.
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What part of "fighting" is "good?" What parts of our efforts were not legitimate or righteous?

Again, give us something more than just emotional highly opinionated Liberal hyperbole.

The notion that we have sunk to the level of our enemies in THIS debate is asinine and offensive and impugns good people who were trying to do their duty to protect their fellow citizens after 9-11. It is a mentality, or rather a lack of one, that requires one to live in a pre-911 world. It is an ideal that can only be expressed in a vacuum of facts and the reality.

Lerxst said:
We should be above all that. We should be able to legitimately say "we are right, we are fighting the good fight, and we are above the cowardly and repugnant actions of our enemies."

We should be able to say that.
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Yep, I am sure our enemies and the terrorists are all sitting around saying; DAMN, those Americans are no longer sinking to OUR level and are ABOVE us in morality.

Do Liberals ever see the stupidity of such asinine arguments?

The TRUTH is that this has ZERO to do with us having the higher moral ground; that is a given based on our actions and those of our enemies and no desperate hyper partisan Liberal attempt to re-define it makes us less moral.

The TRUTH is that this is a political partisan attempt to impugn the previous administration in the court of public opinion and nothing more.

I have YET to see any of the Liberals here show how our methods meet the REAL definition of torture, how this torturous internal debate has made our nation safer, how this debate has made our troops safer and how this debate is anything more than a political witch hunt.

There’s no “high ground” here, we already own it. That notion is pure hyperbolic BS expressed by a political ideology in this nation, and perhaps others, which is wallowing in denial and offensive farcical rhetoric.

Carry on. :2wave:
 
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They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. - B. Franklin

I find it disturbing that the loudest "patriots" are those who would throw away that part of America for which generations shed the most blood...our integrity and honor.
 
Lerxst said:
I think GWB even agreed
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why do I care what GWB said?

there was a difference between us and the terrorists. Are you saying there isn't? There are no "good guys and bad guys?" Please clarify.
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many differences, many similarities. Far too many to list.


This is completely ridiculous. Nobody here is weak-kneed or cowardly about this issue. That is a common tactic that is flawed to it's very core, extremely lazy, and disingenuous at best (I'm being kind with my words).
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ipse dixit?

We are advocating that we don't act like those we claim to despise.
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and we don't. We don't saw off peoples heads because they aren't our religion or because they offended us. We waterboard VERY SPECIFIC people for VERY SPECIFIC information.

Nobody is saying that we stop fighting terrorist organizations or abandon Democracy in favor of being subjugated by tyrannical foreign powers. Quite the opposite.
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you just want to fight with both hands tied behind your back instead, got it.

We are advocating that we fight the good fight. That we maintain a legitimate position of righteousness in how we prosecute our enemies. That we don't sink so low as to do completely unnecessary acts of brutality on prisoners for the purpose of fishing for information.
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this is refuted by my strong advocation of due process for the use of torture.

We should be above all that. We should be able to legitimately say "we are right, we are fighting the good fight, and we are above the cowardly and repugnant actions of our enemies."
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we are. We don't saw off our enemies head an inch at a time when they are alive in order to recruit new members and scare our enemies.

We should be able to say that.
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if you listen carefully, we are.
 
WillRockwell said:
They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. - B. Franklin

I find it disturbing that the loudest "patriots" are those who would throw away that part of America for which generations shed the most blood...our integrity and honor.
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I find it disturbing that Liberals continue to desperately assert that anyone has given up any Liberties; please, point out some of these Liberties we have given up as a nation, I would like to see some.

Every time I have asked this question I get nothing but more emotional hyperbolic BS, but never any FACTS to support these absurd contentions.

But that stated, what good is a citizens Liberty if their lives are threatened by an invisible enemy who has clearly stated the goal is to kill even higher numbers of our citizens than were lost on 9-11?

What part of this entire debate do you people continue to NOT get; or is it just willful ignorance or political hyper partisanship?
 
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Truth Detector said:
Read the UN definition of what constitutes torture; SEVERE physical or mental pain.
.
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Thanks for a definition at least. There has been quite a bit of emotional screeching around here without even defining torture. It is quite probable many of us may be using the same terms but meaning something else altogether.

Now define severe so we can all agree to it.


According to much of this thread I have been tortured most of my life by various sports and activities.
Most recently the Titan at six flags.
images


Roller-coaster risk is rampant
 
Moderator's Warning:
Enough is enough. Your constant attempts at thread derailing and covert personal attacks will stop now, TD. You are thread banned.
 
Truth Detector said:
The farcical attempt to claim that we do act like our enemies is asinine and cannot be supported by REALITY or the FACTS however.



What part of "fighting" is "good?" What parts of our efforts were not legitimate or righteous?

Again, give us something more than just emotional highly opinionated Liberal hyperbole.

The notion that we have sunk to the level of our enemies in THIS debate is asinine and offensive and impugns good people who were trying to do their duty to protect their fellow citizens after 9-11. It is a mentality, or rather a lack of one, that requires one to live in a pre-911 world. It is an ideal that can only be expressed in a vacuum of facts and the reality.



Yep, I am sure our enemies and the terrorists are all sitting around saying; DAMN, those Americans are no longer sinking to OUR level and are ABOVE us in morality.

Do Liberals ever see the stupidity of such asinine arguments?

The TRUTH is that this has ZERO to do with us having the higher moral ground; that is a given based on our actions and those of our enemies and no desperate hyper partisan Liberal attempt to re-define it makes us less moral.

The TRUTH is that this is a political partisan attempt to impugn the previous administration in the court of public opinion and nothing more.

I have YET to see any of the Liberals here show how our methods meet the REAL definition of torture, how this torturous internal debate has made our nation safer, how this debate has made our troops safer and how this debate is anything more than a political witch hunt.

There’s no “high ground” here, we already own it. That notion is pure hyperbolic BS expressed by a political ideology in this nation, and perhaps others, which is wallowing in denial and offensive farcical rhetoric.

Carry on. :2wave:
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You're still a ****head in my book but that doesn't mean I don't agree with you every now and then (minus the hyper partisan anti-liberal rants). :mrgreen:
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
Moderator's Warning:
Enough is enough. Your constant attempts at thread derailing and covert personal attacks will stop now, TD. You are thread banned.
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Well ****. I can't keep up with the bombardment of responses all by myself by posting and reading from my phone so I'll just wait to postpone responding to future posts until I get home.
 
scourge99 said:
Well ****. I can't keep up with the bombardment of responses all by myself by posting and reading from my phone so I'll just wait to postpone responding to future posts until I get home.
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I've tried reading this forum from my phone, it does not work well at all.
 
Lerxst said:
I've tried reading this forum from my phone, it does not work well at all.
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I tried the same, but I can't make sense of the numbers, the *, and the #. :mrgreen:
 
scourge99 said:
why do I care what GWB said?
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Because he represents the far end of the spectrum and I was saying that to illustrate that my comment was a widely accepted ideal that we are supposed to be different than our enemies.

many differences, many similarities. Far too many to list.
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Very well.


and we don't. We don't saw off peoples heads because they aren't our religion or because they offended us. We waterboard VERY SPECIFIC people for VERY SPECIFIC information.
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We tortured and abused our captives with a variety of techniques and we did it on more than a few of them. We did far more than waterboard and we didn't do it for VERY SPECIFIC information. You can't substantiate this at all. We were fishing for things we didn't know, period. Otherwise we wouldn't have had to torture them. Torture is only used to gain information you don't already have (fishing), using it to verify information you already have is unnecessary and barbaric.

you just want to fight with both hands tied behind your back instead, got it.
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Nonsense, I said no such thing. And you characterization of my position is both dishonest and ignorant.
this is refuted by my strong advocation of due process for the use of torture.
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Due process? What are you talking about? If you have time to take a case to court and actually provide true due process in order to gain a warrant to torture someone, you don't need to actually torture them because you would be in court for months if not longer. And that means the issue isn't that important and doesn't warrant toture.

we are. We don't saw off our enemies head an inch at a time when they are alive in order to recruit new members and scare our enemies.
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We just use other methods of torture and abuse on our defenseless captives. We killed them in kinder, gentler ways like smothering them, beating them, shooting them, and forcing hypothermia. Yes we are different.

if you listen carefully, we are.
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We aren't being honest about it when we torture and abuse detainees.
 
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danarhea said:
I tried the same, but I can't make sense of the numbers, the *, and the #. :mrgreen:
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Works great from my blackberry. Just takes a long time to read with such a small screen. Also takes a long time to post without a mouse and only two thumbs to type with.
 
scourge99 said:
Works great from my blackberry. Just takes a long time to read with such a small screen. Also takes a long time to post without a mouse and only two thumbs to type with.
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I have a Treo, it's murder.
 
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