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Arabs revising peace plan to gain Israel backing

Voidwar said:
A bunch of terminology mumbo jumbo that means diddly.
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This is the same bull**** you always pull when people use words you don't comprehend. "Oh your smart talky don't mean squat to me!"

You're a joke.
 
Voidwar said:
And how much difference has all that whining and crying made in the last 40 years ?

thats right, , ,

NONE
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It hasn't had to make any difference, the fact has never changed that Israel is an occupier of land that belongs to other nations. The majority of the world routinely recognizes this fact. It's why there is so much whining and crying I suppose. But aren't you the guy who pusses up when it comes to someone is on your land, even when they have a lawful reason to be there? :rofl

Yeah, that IS you! :rofl
 
Lerxst said:
belongs to other nations.
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In what real way ?

I say that Golan belongs to Isreal and cite the IDF's control of the area, and the litany of Syrian misbehavior that preceded it as my proof.

What evidence, beyond blather, is on your side of discussion ?

The blather, by the way, is canceled out by the misbehavior, and what we are left with is the facts on the ground, that Golan is Israel.
 
Lerxst said:
But aren't you the guy who pusses up when it comes to someone is on your land, even when they have a lawful reason to be there? :rofl

Yeah, that IS you! :rofl
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People with lawful reasons can provide warrants upon request.

Go ahead and open an old argument where I stomped you BarelyaMan.
 
Agent Ferris said:
It makes perfect sense as your statistics are by district not by the partition borders.
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My stats were from 1946 and for what is now Israel, so it is perfectly clears yours were very wrong.

But anyway enough I told CC I would no longer argue about this.
 
24 hours later. Typical ME thread. Nothing of substance, just silly arguing about who owns what based on what treaty and whose fault is it for why things are the way they are.

Let me know when y'all are done.
 
Lerxst said:
It hasn't had to make any difference, the fact has never changed that Israel is an occupier of land that belongs to other nations.
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Israel just didn't go out and scoop up people's land.

Many of you folks here tend to forget or not mention that.

Countries attacked Israel, got their ass handed to them, and lost land.

Some of these nations like Egypt and Jordan, made their peace with Israel.

They received ALL of their land back.

Syria and Palestine have never negotiated a peace treaty with Israel.

Until they do, we will continue to occupy territories lost in war.
 
Tashah said:
Israel just didn't go out and scoop up people's land.

Many of you folks here tend to forget or not mention that.

Countries attacked Israel, got their ass handed to them, and lost land.

Some of these nations like Egypt and Jordan, made their peace with Israel.

They received ALL of their land back.

Syria and Palestine have never negotiated a peace treaty with Israel.

Until they do, we will continue to occupy territories lost in war.
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Tashah, you have missed my point. I never said Israel just arbitrarily invaded and took land. The point that I was making is that returning occupied lands, regardless of why they were occupied, isn't an actual sacrifice per se. The argument spilled into this "the land is Israels forever because they won it in a war." No, it's not. Israel occupied that land as a strategic buffer so that they could have some measure of security for their citizens in Israel proper. I fully understand and appreciate this. But it still doesn't mean Israel owns the land.

My original intent here was to question the logic that Israel puling back to the pre-67 borders was not a sacrifice as was claimed by someone else. It is eliminating that strategic security buffer, but the theory (and I know it's only a theory) that this might somehow restore peace, or lend to that anyway, would insinuate that the need for that buffer would be gone. Look I know it's not very probable, but I have to maintain some hope that there is a solution for peace in the region. As you pointed out, Egypt and Jordan made their peace with Israel. Palestine and Syria are different situations, I realize this. But still, I think it's possible. All I'm getting at is that it would be a worthwhile trade for real peace. If peace could be had.

Peace.
 
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Tashah said:
Israel just didn't go out and scoop up people's land.

Many of you folks here tend to forget or not mention that.

Countries attacked Israel, got their ass handed to them, and lost land.

Some of these nations like Egypt and Jordan, made their peace with Israel.

They received ALL of their land back.

Syria and Palestine have never negotiated a peace treaty with Israel.

Until they do, we will continue to occupy territories lost in war.
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I agree with you. But the difference between you and voidwar is that you recognize yes, Israel does occupy land and does not as a matter of fact own them. The Jews shouldnt give Golan back until Syria and Palestine make there peace with Israel, but im not willing to say the land occupied by Israel is therefore theres, but im definetly not going to say they shouldnt be occupying it, they pushed there luck, and the Israeli's kicked some arse. I fully respect that. They made the first move, not the Jews.

Tashah, you as a soldier of the IDF fully have my support on the issue. Its good for once to see the Jews be able to defend themselves within there own soviergn. It makes a change from the usual patterns of history. Regardles if i think Golan is being occupied rightfully or not, theres no denying it doesnt belong to Israel.
 
Voidwar said:
In what real way ?

I say that Golan belongs to Isreal and cite the IDF's control of the area, and the litany of Syrian misbehavior that preceded it as my proof.

What evidence, beyond blather, is on your side of discussion ?

The blather, by the way, is canceled out by the misbehavior, and what we are left with is the facts on the ground, that Golan is Israel.
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More crap. Your interpreting the present how you want it to be interpreted, and rewriting the past. Please cease your nonsense.
 
I just want to take a brief moment to explain a few things here...

All of you can look at a map and see the Golan Heights and the West Bank (Judea and Samaria) and the border lines. From this perspective, everything looks homogenous and fairly simple. But reality is not so easy-peasy.

The Golan Heights is so named because of its high elevation. Every military person has a deep appreciation of the high ground. Confederate forces lost at Gettysburg because they could not dislodge Union forces from the local hillocks. How many American soldiers perished taking the high bluffs on Pacific islands such as Iwo Jima? Militarily, it is usually extremely difficult and costly taking the high ground from entrenched forces.

There has been no peace treaty signed between Israel and Syria since the 1967 war. Technically, a state of war still exists. Until this changes, it would be foolish of Israel to relinquish the high ground of the Golan Heights to Syrian forces.

Bisecting the West Bank from north to south is the Jordan Ridge. This is also high ground. If you stand on this ridge and look west, you can see the Israeli coastal cities with the naked eye. It would be child's play to lob rockets and artillery rounds into these heavily populated cities from such an elevation.

I would be strategically uncomfortable withdrawing from the Jordan Ridge cold turkey. As things stand, the Palestinian authorities do not have the personel and the tools necessary to secure this territory from an extremist militia like Islamic Jihad. I would feel much better having an outside force such as NATO patrolling this land for a specified duration of time.

These are items that a simple map doesn't explain. They are critical items in the minds of most Israelis and must be addressed honestly and satisfactorily.
 
kaya'08 said:
I agree with you. But the difference between you and voidwar is that you recognize yes, Israel does occupy land and does not as a matter of fact own them. The Jews shouldnt give Golan back until Syria and Palestine make there peace with Israel, but im not willing to say the land occupied by Israel is therefore theres, but im definetly not going to say they shouldnt be occupying it, they pushed there luck, and the Israeli's kicked some arse. I fully respect that. They made the first move, not the Jews.

Tashah, you as a soldier of the IDF fully have my support on the issue. Its good for once to see the Jews be able to defend themselves within there own soviergn. It makes a change from the usual patterns of history. Regardles if i think Golan is being occupied rightfully or not, theres no denying it doesnt belong to Israel.
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Well said and very much agree.
Arabs did get their asses kicked nicely ... :lol:
 
Kaya '08 said:
The Jews shouldnt give Golan back until Syria and Palestine make there peace with Israel,
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But even if they do make there peace with Israel the fact of the matter is that Syria has relinquished their claims of sovereignty over the Golan Heights and in fact asserts that it belongs to Lebanon even though that has been completely disproven. So if Syria has relinquished their claims of sovereignty over the territory and it clearly doesn't belong to Lebanon, who but Israel has a better claim to said territory taken during a defensive war?
 
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Agent Ferris said:
But even if they do make there peace with Israel the fact of the matter is that Syria has relinquished their claims of sovereignty over the Golan Heights and in facts asserts that it belongs to Lebanon even though that has been completely disproven. So if Syria has relinquished their claims of sovereignty over the territory and it clearly doesn't belong to Lebanon, who but Israel has a better claim to said territory taken during a defensive war?
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The people who live there of course.
 
Kaya '08 said:
I would accept Golan Heights as rightfully Israelis under the context that it was done so under the condition there activies in the region does not account for illegal occupation by the international community, that word alone signalizes its land not owned by Israel but again, rather an occupied region by Israel.
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But here's the rub, whose land is it that they're occupying, just as Egypt and Jordan have renounced territorial claims to Gaza and the West Bank so to has Syria renounced their claims to the Golan Heights and actually states that it belongs to Lebanon which they use as an excuse to allow Hezbollah to continue committing acts of terrorism and not disarm in violation of UN resolution 1559.

They wanted to play games with fake maps and relinquished their sovereignty claims and were proven liars, so to bad so sad I say.
 
Meh I was wrong, it's only the Shebaa farms which Syria relinquished claims of sovereignty to, however, the majority of the population in the Golan heights are Druze (19,300) to whom the Israeli's have offered full citizenship to, and the 2nd highest population are Jewish Israeli's (16,500) with only 2,100 Syrian Arabs.
 
Agent Ferris said:
Meh I was wrong, it's only the Shebaa farms which Syria relinquished claims of sovereignty to, however, the majority of the population in the Golan heights are Druze (19,300) to whom the Israeli's have offered full citizenship to, and the 2nd highest population are Jewish Israeli's (16,500) with only 2,100 Syrian Arabs.
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The Israelis are illegal immigrants so they have no say.
 
Wessexman said:
Actually most of the population are Druze. The Israelis are UN determined illegals, they don't count as they don't in Britain or anywhere elseas having a voice in the gov't of the nation.
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Perhaps the Arab league shouldn't have responded with the "three no's" when Israel offered to return the territory it had captured in return for recognition of Israel. But regardless as to the U.N. claiming illegal settlers, I see no reason whatsoever for Israel to abide by U.N. resolution 242 until Syria does. Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt abided by said resolution (decades after it was passed) and Israel has returned all of their captured territory.

From UNSCR 242:

(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force....

Syria is still operating under the "no recognition of Israel, no negotiation with Israel, and no peace with Israel" principles set forth by the Arab league.
 
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Agent Ferris said:
Perhaps the Arab league shouldn't have responded with the "three no's" when Israel offered to return the territory it had captured in return for recognition of Israel. But regardless as to the U.N. claiming illegal settlers, I see no reason whatsoever for Israel to abide by U.N. resolution 242 until Syria does. Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt abided by said resolution (decades after it was passed) and Israel has returned all of their captured territory.
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As you said before. I did not disagree.
 
Wessexman said:
My stats were from 1946 and for what is now Israel, so it is perfectly clears yours were very wrong.

But anyway enough I told CC I would no longer argue about this.
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I cited my source, your stats were not for Israel only they were for the entire Palestinian mandate west of the Jordan river including the land that was to be partitioned into the Palestinian state.
 
Agent Ferris said:
I cited my source, your stats were not for Israel only they were for the entire Palestinian mandate west of the Jordan river including the land that was to be partitioned into the Palestinian state.
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No they were for Israel and the West bank as it makes clear.
 
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