Swine flu is worse in Mexico, but why?

This best selling book might see a rise in sales. This is author John Barry of New Orleans who also wrote Rising Tide. Somehow my family knows him.

The book is awesome.

PeteEU said:

So you are saying that bringing up a right wing idea of Mexico being a failed state or near failed state in a discussion on a pandemic that happens to have started in Mexico (as far as we know), is some how relevant to the subject? How exactly is it relevant that drug gangs and the government are in a defacto war in the country? Have the drug gangs infected the population by breeding many chickens and pigs? Have the government forced people to live near or with pigs and chickens? How exactly is it relevant?

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It's relevant because it indicates the Mexico government to have a level of courage and political maturity not seen in, say, China during the SARS outbreak. It's relevant because it indicates the United States can have confidence that Mexico will continue to do what it can in terms of containing and mitigating this influenza outbreak. It's relevant because it means that the US is under less pressure to interdict travel to and from Mexico, which eases the burdens on the US. It's relevant because disease outbreaks of this nature are a public health crisis, will tax any nation's public health infrastructure, and can easily aggravate stresses on a nation's government. It's relevant because it means that, as bad as the narco-violence in Northern Mexico is, the government still has the political capital to take command of this public health crisis and address it in a responsible fashion. It's relevant because not all of the cases are in Mexico City--cases have been reported as far north as Mexicali, which is not only near the US border but also has been a prime battleground between the drug cartels.

As my profile shows, I live in Houston, Texas. A good many people in this city, including a number of those with whom I do business, have various ties and relationships within Mexico, both business and personal. When a contagious disease such as influenza erupts, it will spread along those ties and through those relationships--that is how bubonic plague spread through Europe in the Middle Ages, how the Ebola virus rampages through African communities now and again, how smallpox erupted in colonial North America and again in the United States in 1837-1838. Such is the nature of disease. How Mexico responds to this influenza outbreak has immediate relevance to me; had the disease erupted first in Quebec, Canada and I lived in, say, upstate New York or Michigan, Canada's responses would be of equal relevance, and Canada's lingering internal tensions arising from Francophone Quebec could easily impact how well that nation responded to such a crisis--and might prove surprisingly problematic, given Canada's seemingly endless flirtation with its own dissolution.

China's handling--or rather, mishandling--of SARS in 2003 allowed that contagion to spread farther and claim more lives than might have otherwise been the case. By ignoring that crisis, China added to every nation's burden in protecting their own populations.

Zimbabwe's recent cholera epidemic is a grim example of what can happen when government lacks the will and/or the infrastructure to address epidemic disease.

So, just as I draw real concern from Mexico's narco-violence and what impact it has on Texas, I draw real comfort from Mexico's response to this influenza outbreak, and what impact that has on Texas. If that to you represents hatred of Latinos, then you are sadly and greatly deluded.

PeteEU said:

Give it time.. and dont forget that the Mexicans are closet socialist who support Islamofasicm and such.. even though it has zero relevancy to the topic. Oh and it is all Clinton's and Obama's fault.

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Or, the world refuses to give into that most malignant of social diseases, liberal left-wing hatred, and real problems get met with real solutions:

Most suspected flu patients in Mexico now healthy | Reuters

"It's very important to act fast and take this seriously, but it's also very important to stay calm, cooperate with authorities and inform them of any cases that arise," he said during a meeting of health officials.

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Thanks to Duke for noting this article in another thread on the influenza outbreak.

With luck, this influenza outbreak will prove to be a "flash in the pan", and if it does prove to be a flash in the pan, Calderon and the Mexican government will deserve the lion's share of the credit.

celticlord said:

It's relevant because it indicates the Mexico government to have a level of courage and political maturity not seen in, say, China during the SARS outbreak. It's relevant because it indicates the United States can have confidence that Mexico will continue to do what it can in terms of containing and mitigating this influenza outbreak. It's relevant because it means that the US is under less pressure to interdict travel to and from Mexico, which eases the burdens on the US. It's relevant because disease outbreaks of this nature are a public health crisis, will tax any nation's public health infrastructure, and can easily aggravate stresses on a nation's government. It's relevant because it means that, as bad as the narco-violence in Northern Mexico is, the government still has the political capital to take command of this public health crisis and address it in a responsible fashion. It's relevant because not all of the cases are in Mexico City--cases have been reported as far north as Mexicali, which is not only near the US border but also has been a prime battleground between the drug cartels.

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Yes I agree on most of this, however again what does the narko war have to do with why "Swine flu is worse in Mexico?" I mean you seem to believe that Mexico is a failed state or on the verge of a failed state since you have stated so much, but what relevance does that have at all to why "Swine flu is worse in Mexico?"

But the funny part is that if Mexico was a failed state (or going there) as you seem to believe, do you think that it could react in the way it has? So if we focus on the failed state bit, does their reaction not basicly prove they are not and not heading towards a failed state status.. and again what does it have to do with with why swine flue is worse in Mexico... which is the title of the thread. Narko terrorists using swine flu as a bio weapon against the US or something?

As my profile shows, I live in Houston, Texas. A good many people in this city, including a number of those with whom I do business, have various ties and relationships within Mexico, both business and personal.

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And I live in Spain, the gate way to the rest of the Europe for most latin countries including Mexico, and of course the former colonial master. Dont you think I am worried too? We have our first confirmed case here. But I still dont say that Mexico is a "failed state" and worry about Mexico's responsiveness because of some drug war. Does that mean that if there is a drug war going on in a US state (which there probaly is to some extent) that then said state is a failed state too? Does it mean if a gang war breaks out in a major US city, that said city is a failed city? I know there is a gang war going on in my home country, does that mean it is a failed state or moving to failed state status? Of course not and it bears zero relevance to any epidemic.

When a contagious disease such as influenza erupts, it will spread along those ties and through those relationships--that is how bubonic plague spread through Europe in the Middle Ages, how the Ebola virus rampages through African communities now and again, how smallpox erupted in colonial North America and again in the United States in 1837-1838. Such is the nature of disease.

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Yep and we have a flu epidemic every 10 years or so, costing thousands of lives. There was one in the 50s, one in the 60s and so on.

How Mexico responds to this influenza outbreak has immediate relevance to me; had the disease erupted first in Quebec, Canada and I lived in, say, upstate New York or Michigan, Canada's responses would be of equal relevance, and Canada's lingering internal tensions arising from Francophone Quebec could easily impact how well that nation responded to such a crisis--and might prove surprisingly problematic, given Canada's seemingly endless flirtation with its own dissolution.

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LOL give me a break. A country that is not only democratic, but has a somewhat semi stable democratic history, is suddenly going to be a "failed state" just because of problems internal? Does that mean that the US is a failed state because of the political troubles between the Democrats and Republicans? Or it is a failed state because some in Texas want to cede from the Union?

Of course any and all aspects of Mexican life has an influence on how they react to such things, but a freaking drug war and a hypothetical pipedream by the American right about a possible failed state in a country that they have issues with, is not one the major factors that need be mentioned when discussing why "Swine flu is worse in Mexico", which is the intent of this discussion.. or did you miss-right the title of the thread?

The correct things are things like population density, social aspects and traditional aspects, pollution, and so on. Mabye after number of albino patients in the area we can start discussing the narko war, but surely not before the most logical reasons.

China's handling--or rather, mishandling--of SARS in 2003 allowed that contagion to spread farther and claim more lives than might have otherwise been the case. By ignoring that crisis, China added to every nation's burden in protecting their own populations.

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I agree, but does that mean that China is a failed state? Or there are social and traditional and political issues that resulted in this mishandling? Things like pride, arrogance, corruption, population density, social aspects, traditions.. how important are they compared to the failed state arguments? There is after all an insurgency in areas of China against Chinese rule.

Zimbabwe's recent cholera epidemic is a grim example of what can happen when government lacks the will and/or the infrastructure to address epidemic disease.

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At least here we could agree that it was a failed state, yet you did not mention it...

So, just as I draw real concern from Mexico's narco-violence and what impact it has on Texas

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As you should, but again what does it have to do with why "swine flu is worse in Mexico"?

I draw real comfort from Mexico's response to this influenza outbreak, and what impact that has on Texas.

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It is the same response as any other nation is expected to have done that do not have self serving morons ruling it. Flu is a season thing and can pop up everywhere, so containing it is damn hard.

If that to you represents hatred of Latinos, then you are sadly and greatly deluded.

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Again, what does the narko war have to do with "Swine flu is worse in Mexico"? Are the narko people sending infected people across the border or something?

Now you might not have intentionally wanted to go that way, but you have to admit that it is a poor title if you in fact wanted to discuss the narko war vs swine flu angle...

Let me remind you... Mexico City.. population 26 million people is the centre of the breakout. That is why it is worse in Mexico.

obvious Child said:

Not necessarily. Nature has a random chance probability in mixing viral DNA affecting primarily different species. We really don't see viruses or bacteria that incorporate DNA specific to harming different species all molded into one new super bug. Labs however, can specifically splice in genes for specific symptoms and to target specific species. Like taking the worst of several viruses.

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Nonsense.

Flus typically gain virulence by passing through ducks and pigs and back to humans a few times before they really become noticeable. It's a standard path, really.

Also....gee, what lab was working in Haskell, Kansas in 1918 to produce what became known as the "Spanish" influenza that killed so many? Every infected cell in the body has a chance of spewing out mutated flu viruses, and they typically create about 10,000 new copies of the virus per cell.

Do the math.

PeteEU said:

And since it is in no way relevant to a discussion on how and why Mexico is harder hit, then one can only surmise that the OP has some sort of "issue" with Mexico and hence latinos.. I mean he all but admits it by agreeing with the idiotic idea that Mexico is a near failed state....so I ask again, what is the relevance of the Meixcan drug war to the pandemic that has supposedly started in Mexico City?

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The fact that the US border HAS TO BE SEALED.

If the US border wasn't wide open, the chances of these infected invaders entering the US is minimized and the issue would be Mexico's problem.

Also, if the borders were sealed, there would be twenty to thirty million more Mexicans in Mexico, where they belong, for MEXICO's economy and government to support. Bearing the burden of being welfare support is one of the reason the US economy is faltering.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

The fact that the US border HAS TO BE SEALED.

If the US border wasn't wide open, the chances of these infected invaders entering the US is minimized and the issue would be Mexico's problem.

Also, if the borders were sealed, there would be twenty to thirty million more Mexicans in Mexico, where they belong, for MEXICO's economy and government to support. Bearing the burden of being welfare support is one of the reason the US economy is faltering.

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Whole other discussion, and what does it have to do with why it is worse in Mexico (swine flu wise)?

PeteEU said:

Whole other discussion, and what does it have to do with why it is worse in Mexico (swine flu wise)?

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It's worse in Mexico because their sanitation standards are lower.

Which is a damn good reason to keep them out of the US.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

It's worse in Mexico because their sanitation standards are lower.

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This is not so.

FIRST CASES OF SWINE FLU IN THE UK!!!

BBC NEWS | UK | Swine flu cases confirmed in UK

Two people admitted to a Scottish hospital after returning from a holiday in Mexico have been confirmed as the UK's first swine flu cases.

Scottish Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon said both individuals were recovering well in a Lanarkshire hospital from mild cases of the virus.

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celticlord said:

This is not so.

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Okay.

It's worse in Mexico because they have nationalized health care?

Know what?

I don't care why it's worse in Mexico, only that it doesn't come to the US. Since it has come to the US, we need to seal the borders and stop any further outbreaks. That makes perfect epidemiological sense.

So Obama won't do it.

PeteEU said:

Very simple....

Mexico City is one of the biggest cities on the planet and one of the most polluted. The amount respiratory problems among the population is considerably higher in Mexico City than elsewhere, and since flue especially hits people with respiratory problems hard, and that the present flue vaccine given to said people is ineffective.. then you have the perfect cocktail for many deaths.

But keep up with you conspiracy theories and rampant latino hate, it is entertaining after all.

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That theory has a few problems. First of all, most of the victims were not elderly people...they were young adults. Respiratory problems aren't something that just spring up because you're in a city with pollution...they come from decades of living in that city. A 25-year-old, even if they have lived their entire life in Mexico City, is unlikely to have any respiratory problems. Most of the people who have died have been perfectly healthy.

Furthermore, that is not sufficient to explain why it's more fatal in Mexico. San Luis Potosi has seen a wave of fatal influenza cases as well, despite being nowhere near as polluted as Mexico City. On the other hand, San Diego is a heavily polluted city more on par with Mexico City, yet it hasn't seen any fatalities.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

The fact that the US border HAS TO BE SEALED.

If the US border wasn't wide open, the chances of these infected invaders entering the US is minimized and the issue would be Mexico's problem.

Also, if the borders were sealed, there would be twenty to thirty million more Mexicans in Mexico, where they belong, for MEXICO's economy and government to support. Bearing the burden of being welfare support is one of the reason the US economy is faltering.

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You have GOT to be kidding. You think ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are spreading the virus? The American cases were contracted from the American visiting Mexico City, or being in contact with someone who did.

But hey, any excuse to hate The Brown People is valid, right? The ends justify the means. :roll:

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

I don't care why it's worse in Mexico, only that it doesn't come to the US. Since it has come to the US, we need to seal the borders and stop any further outbreaks. That makes perfect epidemiological sense.

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Uhh no. Actually it's one of the most ****ing retarded things I have ever heard. Unless the US government forbids all Americans to travel anywhere outside of the country, and forbids foreigners from anywhere in the world from visiting America, it can't be contained. And even if they did, someone would do it anyway. And even if they didn't, it's already here and could potentially spread. If this truly becomes a pandemic, it will be impossible to contain.

Your argument has nothing to do with preventing a pandemic. It really boils down to two things: A) You want to preserve the illusion of control that we can somehow prevent a pandemic, and B) You hate Mexicans.

There are outbreaks in the US in Iowa and Kansas, both states we know do not have on overwhelming population density, NY and California are both states with a large population density, but population density affects the amount of transmission but not as much as the prospect of contamination. We have free trade with Mexico, so we import alot of goods, and we know the Mexicans have a lower standard of living, with the majority of the population working in US plants across the border, so the chance of food contamination is much higher than person-to-person transmission.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

Okay.

It's worse in Mexico because they have nationalized health care?

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Its worse in Mexico because they have a lower standard of living, they bathe in well water and rivers, most of the country doesn't have healthcare, so the Swine Flu infects them and they contune on with their lives, probably contaminating their water systems .

Know what?

I don't care why it's worse in Mexico, only that it doesn't come to the US. Since it has come to the US, we need to seal the borders and stop any further outbreaks. That makes perfect epidemiological sense.

So Obama won't do it.

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The US already has plenty of cases in the US, so closing the borders and causing alarm, and just making the Mexicans cross the border illegaly will not help the outbreaks, only make them worse.

Obama is hanling the situatioin as well he can, missing a Surgeon General, CDC head, and other important health officials. So stop being an idiot and saying stupid things because your scared. The world is scared, but if the government panics, the population will.

So overall here are my reasons why the Swine Flu is worse in Mexico:
-Lower standard of living.
-Under-funded Government lacking the resources needed to fight a pandemic.

I'm not involved up to this point, but thought I would add fuel to the fire and show how close this is:

I just picked my son up from school and there were TV vans everywhere. My son's elementary school has 1 confirmed A strain and 2 potential flu cases here in Dallas area. They decided to shut the school down for the rest of the week. This week was TAKS test (no child left behind testing) which in short terms would take someone very high up to shut the place down - it is state law to take the test this week.

Either this is media hype or we have a serious threat of a real pandemic.

3 rd world countries have corrupt Health systems?

celticlord said:

Swine flu is worse in Mexico, but why? | World | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle



The math in the Mexico cases is disturbing. If the mortality rate holds, this is one of the most lethal influenza strains ever. If the mortality rate is in actuality closer to the Spanish Influenza rate of 2.5%, then there are some 1800 unreported (and thus wholly uncontained) cases.

It's either more lethal and less virulent, or more virulent and less lethal. Somehow, neither combination seems especially comforting.

However, one thing that has been unreported/unnoticed thus far is that Mexican authorities are not pretending there is no crisis as the Chinese government did during the SARS outbreak some years back. Especially given the speculations of some (including myself) that Mexico could be on the verge of becoming a failed state, it is worth noting that they appear to be taking the influenza outbreak seriously.

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Kandahar said:

Uhh we see that all the time. This came from swine. Other strains of flu come from birds. Bubonic plague came from rats. HIV came from monkeys. Where do you think most human diseases COME from? Other animals.

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Not necessarily. The strains we see are specific to one type of animals with a few sequences of DNA allowing cross species transfer. How the media reports this one is that it's got sizable amounts of both human based and avian in a majority pig virus. That's new. Remember that Bubonic plague is not a singular agent but a chorus of bacteria and viruses all working together. As for HIV, it's not that much of a stretch for a disease that targets apes to transfer to humans who are in fact apes.

obvious Child said:

Not necessarily. The strains we see are specific to one type of animals with a few sequences of DNA allowing cross species transfer. How the media reports this one is that it's got sizable amounts of both human based and avian in a majority pig virus. That's new. Remember that Bubonic plague is not a singular agent but a chorus of bacteria and viruses all working together. As for HIV, it's not that much of a stretch for a disease that targets apes to transfer to humans who are in fact apes.

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Speak for yourself, ape.

You see what the Russians are doing. They're checking all American planes for swine flu, and banning imports of meat from Mexico and some US states.

Seems somewhat serious so far.Time will tell.

vauge said:

I'm not involved up to this point, but thought I would add fuel to the fire and show how close this is:

I just picked my son up from school and there were TV vans everywhere. My son's elementary school has 1 confirmed A strain and 2 potential flu cases here in Dallas area. They decided to shut the school down for the rest of the week. This week was TAKS test (no child left behind testing) which in short terms would take someone very high up to shut the place down - it is state law to take the test this week.

Either this is media hype or we have a serious threat of a real pandemic.

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jeez! Scary. My husband has been traveling on planes about every 2 weeks. Makes me very nervous to hear all this. Seems like the planes would be the perfect incubators for this crapola. :shock:

- cbs11tv.com

Dunno if the above link will work, but for a slit second around 1:14 you see me and my son walking the sidewalk. They sped it up, I do not walk that fast.

vauge said:

- cbs11tv.com

Dunno if the above link will work, but for a slit second around 1:14 you see me and my son walking the sidewalk. They sped it up, I do not walk that fast.

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omg your on the news!

Yeah they probably made you look more frantic than you actually were.

sazerac said:

This best selling book might see a rise in sales. This is author John Barry of New Orleans who also wrote Rising Tide. Somehow my family knows him.

The book is awesome.

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John Barry was just on Glen Beck. 50 million people or more worldwide died in 1918 within 6 months. 16 million had died in WWI. One third of the US was sick.

John researched this book for years. I don't think a lot of people know about this great influenza.

sazerac said:

John Barry was just on Glen Beck. 50 million people or more worldwide died in 1918 within 6 months. 16 million had died in WWI. One third of the US was sick.

John researched this book for years. I don't think a lot of people know about this great influenza.

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A few things different between then and now.

First off then, we had a world war that was being fought in trenches. The flu hit the troops very hard due to the conditions and many historians and experts actually say that the Spanish flu had more to do with the German surrender than anything else. These troops were sent to the rear when sick, which spread the flu even more.

Secondly our understanding of the flu was no where near as good as it is today. Back then we did not know how it was spread for one.

Thirdly back then we did not have any medicine to combat flu. We do today.

And finally, sanitation back then was no where near as good as it is today. Most houses did not have indoor plumbing and such back then.

There are more differences of course, but those are the key differences that will probably mean that this new swine flu will be no where near as bad as the Spanish flu of 1918.