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Former KKK leader detained in Prague

There is no first amendment in Europe. We have never had and never will have the freedom to say whatever we want.


that is not true

Article 10 - expression

Article 10 provides the right to freedom of expression, subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law" and "necessary in a democratic society". This right includes the freedom to hold opinions, and to receive and impart information and ideas.

European Convention on Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
One question... would calling someone a N*gg*r in front of thousands count as an offense?

yes or no?

.

Yes, because people would start shouting and be violent, that would be against public order.
 
I don't agree with hate speech laws. They violate mans natural rights, something I believe everyone has.

I don''t care how many hurt feelings there are, the guy didn't really do anything wrong to anyone.

He's just an incredible douche bag. That is not a crime.

When people walk naked in the street in the USA they are arrested. Is it so wrong to do that?
 
that is not true

'subject to certain restrictions that are "in accordance with law"

We have never had and never will have the freedom to say whatever we want.

That is my point.
Europe generally has restrictions whether it be hate speech or holocaust denial.
To my knowledge, US does not.
 
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That is my point.
Europe generally has restrictions whether it be hate speech or holocaust denial.
To my knowledge, US does not.

Have you seen the conditions to restrict free speech?
 
Have you seen the conditions to restrict free speech?

I understand UK's but i admit i know little about alot of European countries take on it. Care to tell me?
 
I understand UK's but i admit i know little about alot of European countries take on it. Care to tell me?

I think that there are 3 conditions: the restriction

-> must be proportional
-> must be necessary in a democratic society
-> must have a legitimate goal (such as protecting privacy, presumption of innocence, preventing disorders, preventing crimes...)

http://www.debatepolitics.com/archives/26603-antisionism-europe.html#post1057494246



Furthermore, it is not true that there is no limitation in the freedom of speech in the USA: the patriot act reduces it, and copyright laws forbid people to say/write whatever they want, and words like nigger or ****er are systematically censored
 
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Well, you might not have laws against it, but there has been a collective denial of the truth for generations on some of those. Even today, you would be hard pressed for a right winger to admit that the US committed genocide against the native American population.

I think 95% of Americans of every political ideology would acknowledge that.

PeteEU said:
It dont always need to take laws for a population to be in total denial of past misdeeds. Look at the Japanese and their WW2 history. Look at the Turks and the Armenian genocide.. look at certain politicians in Rwanda today who blame for the genocide but we all know that they participated in it as well. Denial can be a very strong and dangerous thing.

So what? If they're wrong, then the people who feel passionately about it will eventually die off and be replaced by generations who weren't personally affected by it and don't have as much of a stake in covering up the truth. As long as the version of events in the history books is accurate, there is nothing to worry about. Holocaust deniers can't just magically destroy the overwhelming evidence that the Holocaust happened.

PeteEU said:
We have seen time and time again situations where someone has claimed something and it has stuck as fact, regardless of the truth. Now in most cases it has not had any huge consequences, but in certain cases it has. In recent history we have the famous WMD, and we have the Saddam and links to Al Q, and we have the Gulf of Tomkin incident. Falsehoods can have dire consequences if pushed to the extreme and then being accepted as "fact". Even today you have considerably number of people in the US who actually believe that Saddam was behind 9/11.. are they stupid sure, but that does not change the fact that they believe what some people of "power and influence" have said.

So what? Are you saying that it should be illegal to claim that Saddam and al-Qaeda had links? Are you saying that it should be illegal to claim that Iraq had WMDs? Are you saying that it should be illegal to claim that the Gulf of Tonkin incident actually occured as the US government claimed?

Allowing governments to write the history books is positively Orwellian. If you allow that, then what would stop the LBJ Administration from making it illegal to DENY the Gulf of Tonkin incident? What would stop the Bush Administration from making it illegal to DENY that Iraq and al-Qaeda had connections? The truth of those events will be accurately reflected in the vast majority of history books...the last thing we need is for government to take sides and make dissent a criminal offense.

PeteEU said:
Now in the case of holocaust denial we have 2 factors at least at play.

For one we have laws put in place by a 3rd party, namely the victors of WW2, of which the US was a key member.

It's been nearly 70 years. I doubt the US is going to throw a fit if countries repeal those laws in favor of free speech, seeing how we don't have those laws ourselves.

PeteEU said:
Secondly we have nations where the atrocities of WW2 hit very hard and it is often human nature to be in denial of such things even with proof after proof. We have the American Indian example and the Japanese WW2 example or the Turkish Armenian example.

Then why make it a criminal offense to follow "human nature" when no one is being harmed?

PeteEU said:
Now in such cases I would be all for having laws in place to punish people who actively spread lies and misinformation in order to press an aura of denial of past deeds. After all the saying goes.. If you dont understand history then you are doomed to repeat it... and frankly I would rather not.

Who determines what "lies and misinformation" can be punished? The government? I hear the North Koreans have that down to a science. Maybe the EU can take some lessons from them.

PeteEU said:
And lets not forget, in the US at one point it was a crime to be a communist or have communist ideals.. well in fact just being accused of it was enough to get you convicted once.

Actually it wasn't a crime persay...they were just persecuted. There were a few anti-communist laws, but they were unconstitutional.

And you're forgetting that that's not a chapter of history Americans are proud of, so comparing it to your Holocaust denial laws seems counterproductive.

PeteEU said:
But in this case, he broke the law.. he goes to jail. Jaywalking is not illegal in most of Europe, yet in the US you can get fined and thrown in jail. Does that mean that because I come from Europe I can not be punished for jaywalking? No of course not, but I still find the whole idea idiotic.

I don't think anyone is disputing that it's illegal in those countries. The question is SHOULD it be illegal.
 
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No.
I do not pick and choose.

Slippery slope but balance is everything and generally we are doing an all right job imo.
I support laws against hate speech.

"Hate speech" laws are nothing more than criminalizing dissent. Which of the following statements would you consider hate speech, and on what basis:

A. "Blacks are 8 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely)

B. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, but the person making the statement believes that 100 times is correct)

C. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, but the person making the statement is exaggerating and can't be bothered to learn the correct figure)

D. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, and the person making the statement knows perfectly well that 100 times is incorrect)

E. "Blacks are much more violent than whites."

F. "Blacks are much more likely to commit murder than whites."

G. "Blacks are much more likely to commit murder than whites...maybe it's in their genes."

H. "Blacks are murderers."

I. "The government should severely punish all black murderers."


So which of those statements are hate speech? And who is the GOVERNMENT to determine that? Perhaps they can form a committee to determine the "correct" view of all historical, sociological, religious, and racial issues. And anyone who disagrees with the committee will be thrown in jail for hate speech. :roll:
 
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Yes, because people would start shouting and be violent, that would be against public order.

"Thousands" could also apply to a radio audience.

.
 
"Hate speech" laws are nothing more than criminalizing dissent. Which of the following statements would you consider hate speech, and on what basis:

A. "Blacks are 8 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely) No.

B. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, but the person making the statement believes that 100 times is correct) No

C. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, but the person making the statement is exaggerating and can't be bothered to learn the correct figure) No

D. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, and the person making the statement knows perfectly well that 100 times is incorrect) No

E. "Blacks are much more violent than whites." Perhaps, depends.

F. "Blacks are much more likely to commit murder than whites." No.

G. "Blacks are much more likely to commit murder than whites...maybe it's in their genes." Maybe.

H. "Blacks are murderers." Yes.

I. "The government should severely punish all black murderers." Perhaps. I'd rather the person said i want the government to punish all criminals.

Disclaimer: It is just my opinion on my interpretation of the laws, i am in no means a judge.

Keep in mind 'hate speech' is generally accepted as meaning 'speech intended to degrade based on gender, race or sexuality' or 'Bigoted speech attacking or disparaging a social or ethnic group or a member of such a group' and i'm using that definition as a foundation for my answers. Assuming some are facts [It's not but lets say so] and the others being opinion with that intention to spread racial tension

 
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Read the article.
They arrested him on the charge that perhaps he implied the Holocaust did not occur in a BOOK he wrote.
I wonder if they will burn the book afterwards.
IOW its ridiculous and the irony is dripping.

...
Blaming the USA or Allies for post occupation policies that every nation in Europe could have changed now 5 bazillion times over is as ridiculous as the African complaining about how they can't manage to do anything ever since the nasty Europeans modernized them.

On the flip side the Nazis where not unpopular in their day and their message is resonating in Europe again.
The banking problems in Europe and expected unemployment levels are likely to cause a significant shift in European politics...not simply leaders/governments but the base ideology of nations.
 
When people walk naked in the street in the USA they are arrested. Is it so wrong to do that?

Its not really wrong in my mind.

I don't care if people say hurtful or untrue things.

I think if we are going to start arresting people for being lairs lets start with politicians first.
 
Its not really wrong in my mind.

I don't care if people say hurtful or untrue things.

I think if we are going to start arresting people for being lairs lets start with politicians first.

He is not arrested "because he is a liar"!
Look at a similar trial

With regard to Mr Garaudy’s convictions for disputing the existence of crimes against humanity, the Court referred to Article 17 (prohibition of abuse of rights), which was intended to prevent people from inferring from the Convention any right to engage in activities or perform acts aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth in the Convention. Thus, no one could rely on the Convention as a basis for engaging in any act that was contrary to its provisions. Having analysed the book concerned, the Court found that, as the domestic courts had shown, the applicant had adopted revisionist theories and systematically disputed the existence of the crimes against humanity which the Nazis had committed against the Jewish community. There could be no doubt that disputing the existence of clearly established historical events, such as the Holocaust, did not constitute historical research akin to a quest for the truth. The real purpose of such a work was to rehabilitate the National-Socialist regime and, as a consequence, to accuse the victims of the Holocaust of falsifying history. Disputing the existence of crimes against humanity was, therefore, one of the most severe forms of racial defamation and of incitement to hatred of Jews. The denial or rewriting of this type of historical fact undermined the values on which the fight against racism and anti-Semitism was based and constituted a serious threat to public order. It was incompatible with democracy and human rights and its proponents indisputably had designs that fell into the category of prohibited aims under Article 17 of the Convention. The Court found that, since the applicant’s book, taken as a whole, displayed a marked tendency to revisionism, it ran counter to the fundamental values of the Convention, namely justice and peace. The applicant had sought to deflect Article 10 of the Convention from its intended purpose by using his right to freedom of expression to fulfil ends that were contrary to the Convention. Consequently, the Court held that he could not rely on Article 10 and declared his complaint incompatible with the Convention.

As regards Mr Garaudy’s convictions for racial defamation and incitement to racial hatred, the Court found that they could constitute an interference with his right to freedom of expression. The interference was prescribed by the Act of 29 July 1881 and had at least two legitimate aims: "the prevention of disorder or crime" and "the protection of the reputation or rights of others". However, for the same reasons as those set out above and in view of the overall revisionist tone of the work, the Court had serious doubts as to whether the passages on which his convictions were based could qualify for protection under Article 10. While criticism of State policy, whether of Israel or any other State, indisputably came within that Article, the Court noted that the applicant had not confined himself to such criticism: his writings had a clear racist objective. However, the Court did not consider it necessary to decide that issue, as it found that the reasons given by the domestic courts for convicting the applicant were relevant and sufficient and the interference with his right to respect for his freedom of expression was "necessary in a democratic society", in accordance with Article 10 § 2 of the Convention. Accordingly, the Court declared this complaint ill-founded.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/archives/26603-antisionism-europe.html#post1057494246
 
He is not arrested "because he is a liar"!
Look at a similar trial



http://www.debatepolitics.com/archives/26603-antisionism-europe.html#post1057494246

That's all well and good but it doesn't change the fact that people are arrested and put on trial for something said. Europe has taken an appalling stance against free speech, freedom of thought, and human rights in general when attempting to curb the right to express an idea openly. Europe is weak and failing when it can't even socially handle idiots who deny the holocaust without calling in the goon squads to criminilize stupidity.
 
That's all well and good but it doesn't change the fact that people are arrested and put on trial for something said. Europe has taken an appalling stance against free speech, freedom of thought, and human rights in general when attempting to curb the right to express an idea openly. Europe is weak and failing when it can't even socially handle idiots who deny the holocaust without calling in the goon squads to criminilize stupidity.

Sure he was. In this instance they have criminalized saying The Holocaust didn't happen.

Pure stupidity on their parts.

1) No, you didn't read what I posted. They are not condemned because of what they say, but because of the consequences of what they say (threatening the public order by rehabilitating the nazis and inciting hatred towards Jews)

_______________________________________________________________

2) Read the trial and answer their arguments!

Show me that it is not a "serious threat to public order"!

Show me that it is not "incompatible with democracy and human rights"!

Show me that "two legitimate aims: "the prevention of disorder or crime" and "the protection of the reputation or rights of others"" are not legitimate aims!

_______________________________________________________

3) Oh, and it's funny to see that when a human right is (thought to be) not respected abroad (in this case in Europe), everyone says it is bad, but when the same human rights (...the right not to be tortured) is violated in the USA, everyone seems to think that it is necessary!!
 
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Why do European governments seem to think their people are incapable of spotting the lunacy of these revisionists and holocaust deniers? Do your governments have that little faith in their people to decide whats right and wrong, that they feel the need to squelch free speech and expression?
 
Why do European governments seem to think their people are incapable of spotting the lunacy of these revisionists and holocaust deniers? Do your governments have that little faith in their people to decide whats right and wrong, that they feel the need to squelch free speech and expression?

maybe because the Holocaust hapenned right here 60 years ago!

but maybe it's also because they feel guilty about that, and make laws about it as a sign of good will towards the Jews...just like when Sarkozy apologized for slavery and colonisation

and also...don't be too optimistic with the intelligence of the people...if 10% of the Americans still think that Obama is Muslim, they may also believe that the Holocaust was a myth
 
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maybe because the Holocaust hapenned right here 60 years ago!

but maybe it's also because they feel guilty about that, and make laws about it as a sign of good will towards the Jews...just like when Sarkozy apologized for slavery and colonisation

Yeah it happened. And the people responsible or partook should feel badly about it. But the sins of the father do not pass to the son. There is no reason a German youth of 19 years of age should be made to feel guilt regarding the Holocaust anymore than I should feel guilt for segregation or slavery(I don't by the way). I don't owe African-Americans anything, and the most current generations of Europeans don't owe the Jews an apology either. The ones responsible for the Holocaust? Yes, without question. But for subsequent generations being forced to relive events they were not a part of, and to be made to feel the guilt and shame for actions they did not partake in is a flawed system IMO. I believe Spain repealed Holocaust denial laws early in the 2000's and other European countries should follow suit IMO. You should be free to believe as you choose, and you should be free to express those sentiments so long as you do not infringe upon the rights of anothers well-being. Once you cross that line, then you should get hit with the full force of the law.
 
1) No, you didn't read what I posted. They are not condemned because of what they say, but because of the consequences of what they say (threatening the public order by rehabilitating the nazis and inciting hatred towards Jews)

If European culture and social order are so fragile that an idiot who doesn't acknowledge history is able to threaten it, then perhaps Europe deserves to fall into chaos and then off the map.
_______________________________________________________________

2) Read the trial and answer their arguments!

Show me that it is not a "serious threat to public order"!

Are you really prepared to say that your public order over there is threatened by a silly American who said some fairy tales in a book? Really? That your balance is so unstable that a man who spent much of his life dressed as Casper is able to turn your society upside down if left unchecked?

Europe is even more pathetic in its weakness than I originally thought. No wonder it took the USA saving your sorry asses in both World Wars.

Show me that it is not "incompatible with democracy and human rights"!

What is "incompatible with democracy and human rights" is the European idea that society must be protected from its morons by a nanny state that practices thought control. The weakness and failure of Europe are manifest in the practice of incarcerating people for speaking in offensive ways rather than trusting in society to ridicule its own idiots into a state of irrelevance.

Show me that "two legitimate aims: "the prevention of disorder or crime" and "the protection of the reputation or rights of others"" are not legitimate aims!

I suppose if you need the government to protect you from hearing offensive things to keep you on the righteous path (else you would start denying the holocaust to just from mere exposure to the idea :doh), then fine. Whatever it takes to get you guys through it. I'm just glad I live in a democracy strong enough that everyone has a voice and a society that is strong enough that failing ideologies are shunned out of existence rather than imprisoned for being offensive.
_______________________________________________________

3) Oh, and it's funny to see that when a human right is (thought to be) not respected abroad (in this case in Europe), everyone says it is bad, but when the same human rights (...the right not to be tortured) is violated in the USA, everyone seems to think that it is necessary!!

Which has what to do with Europe's practice of enforced thought control? Oh that's right...nothing. This is just a red herring to detract from the fact that Europe is so weak it can't let its people be exposed to dumb ideas lest they latch on to those dumb ideas en masse.
 
If European culture and social order are so fragile that an idiot who doesn't acknowledge history is able to threaten it, then perhaps Europe deserves to fall into chaos and then off the map.
_______________________________________________________________


There are also laws about not walking naked in the street for the same reasons, and these laws exist in the USA too, yet you don't bitch about them.



Are you really prepared to say that your public order over there is threatened by a silly American who said some fairy tales in a book? Really?

That's what the court said and I agree with it

Europe is even more pathetic in its weakness than I originally thought. No wonder it took the USA saving your sorry asses in both World Wars.

You don't need to use insults



What is "incompatible with democracy and human rights" is the European idea that society must be protected from its morons by a nanny state that practices thought control. The weakness and failure of Europe are manifest in the practice of incarcerating people for speaking in offensive ways rather than trusting in society to ridicule its own idiots into a state of irrelevance.

You don't get it: there are morons like that who start their own political parties. Preventing them to spread their anti-democratic hatred is a way to preserve democracy. No tolerance for intolerants.



I'm just glad I live in a democracy strong enough that everyone has a voice and a society that is strong enough that failing ideologies are shunned out of existence rather than imprisoned for being offensive.
_______________________________________________________


you have no idea what you're talking about. You start saying that European countries are not democratic because you don't understand what the court does and why.

freedomhouse.org: Freedom in the World

Which has what to do with Europe's practice of enforced thought control? Oh that's right...nothing. This is just a red herring to detract from the fact that Europe is so weak it can't let its people be exposed to dumb ideas lest they latch on to those dumb ideas en masse.

Not at all, I just point out double standart. When it's about Europe (or anything else outside the USA) it's bad, but when Bush uses torture (which is an obvious breach of the Human Rights) then everyone tries to find excuses
 
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No.
I do not pick and choose.

Slippery slope but balance is everything and generally we are doing an all right job imo.
I support laws against hate speech.

You have it slightly wrong Laila, the UK has laws regarding the incitement to racial hatred or racial violence - you can hate and you can speak freely as long as that is not inciting others to violence. How that is interpreted varies - the "N" word for example will get you fired if you use it with intent to cause offence and you won't have legal redress at employment tribunal. People can and do have swastika tattoos for example but I doubt many would have a nazi flag outside their house as passersby would probably knock it down or break your windows.

"Hate speech" laws are nothing more than criminalizing dissent. Which of the following statements would you consider hate speech, and on what basis:

A. "Blacks are 8 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely)

B. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, but the person making the statement believes that 100 times is correct)

C. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, but the person making the statement is exaggerating and can't be bothered to learn the correct figure)

D. "Blacks are 100 times more likely to commit murder than whites in the United States." (The actual figure is 8 times more likely, and the person making the statement knows perfectly well that 100 times is incorrect)

E. "Blacks are much more violent than whites."

F. "Blacks are much more likely to commit murder than whites."

G. "Blacks are much more likely to commit murder than whites...maybe it's in their genes."

H. "Blacks are murderers."

I. "The government should severely punish all black murderers."


So which of those statements are hate speech? And who is the GOVERNMENT to determine that? Perhaps they can form a committee to determine the "correct" view of all historical, sociological, religious, and racial issues. And anyone who disagrees with the committee will be thrown in jail for hate speech. :roll:

None of them would be called incitement to hate - that's what you have to understand about some european laws (especially the UK). I see no incitement. What there are however is some states where there are particularly strong anti-holocaust denial laws and they are in countries where there were National Socialists in govt or hurting jews in WW2.

"Laws in other European countries are more detailed than in the UK. Much of this is due to historical differences because they experienced national socialists," says Dr Callamard.

BBC Pages

As PeteEu pointed out - part of that has been written into their constitution by the winning powers after WW2.
 
There are also laws about not walking naked in the street for the same reasons, and these laws exist in the USA too, yet you don't bitch about them.

My apologies. If you would kindly submit your list of things you would like to hear me bitch about, let's get that out of the way now so we can eventually get back to the TOPIC.



That's what the court said and I agree with it

That's fine. One rarely hears a sheep raise dissent.

You don't need to use insults

That was an observation. If you would like an example of an insult, kindly see me in the Basement.

You don't get it: there are morons like that who start their own political parties. Preventing them to spread their anti-democratic hatred is a way to preserve democracy. No tolerance for intolerants.

Well you do have a point there. Europe has already shown that it was too weak to stop the rise of Hitler from among its ranks so, perhaps, keeping the responsibility that comes with free expression out of the hands of Europeans is probably not a bad idea.


_______________________________________________________


you have no idea what you're talking about. You start saying that European countries are not democratic because you don't understand what the court does and why.

freedomhouse.org: Freedom in the World

I didn't say you weren't democracies. What I did say is that the USA is stronger both socially and democratically because we don't need to send government goon squads to silence offensive speech. We handle it like adults here in America.

Not at all, I just point out double standart. When it's about Europe (or anything else outside the USA) it's bad, but when Bush uses torture (which is an obvious breach of the Human Rights) then everyone tries to find excuses

Well if we were talking about Bush and torture, you would have a point. However, we aren't so you don't. That's a whole different topic of conversation and if you would like, kindly start a thread on it and I would be happy to show you the truth on that matter, too.
 
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