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Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

Who decides?

You are holding a man captive who knows about a pending terrorist attack in the town where your family lives: wife, sons, daughters. If you can learn what that attack is, your family will live. Fail to learn anything of what he knows and your family will die.

Do you torture and/or waterboard? Or do you allow your wife and family to die?

This shows the kind of dishonesty your ilk are trying to pass off on the rest of us with regards to this torture issue. You ask the question like you already KNEW he had information. Truth is you didn't know jack. You fail to mention the VAST majority of the people you tortured were completely innocent. Oh sure, you get info from one or two guys but you've done evil to hundreds. I'm sure Jesus would be very proud of you. :roll:
 
All principles are personal. Countries do not have principles. Nations do not have principles. Only individuals can have principles.

That's asinine. I assume then that you and your friends who have similar viewpoints as you have NEVER called somebody unamerican then? After all, how can someone be unamerican if America has no values which can be offended? Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you polled the people who agreed with your stance on torture you'd find quite a bit who throw around "traitor" "socialist" "unamerican" etc. all day long.

This is of course assuming your post was logically sound and worth replying... which it was not.
 
So you think the terrorists who want to kill us are gonna get post traumatic stress disorder from the waterboarding?

And what do you say to the people who were water boarded and WEREN'T terrorists? Sorry? What if that person was your mother? Your father? We always LOVE talking to "liberals" (i.e. against torture) and asking them if they would torture if their loved one's were on the line, well would you still support it if your loved ones were some of the collateral damage of our intelligence gathering?
 
I see you like FDR.

One has to wonder if you can read.

My post was to show that Mr. V's stance is insane. It is inherently not my fault that you either cannot comprehend the written word or are deliberately ignoring context merely to attempt to ding me for your past argumentative failures. Either way, anyone reading your post and mine will know that what I said was in reply to Mr. V's insane argument and that I was only posting it to show that such a stance is not acceptable.

Does this make FDR a Nazi?

In some ways yes. While he did round up Japanese Americans which was wrong, he did not execute them like Hitler did. But make no mistake, and if you deliberately ignore this, I will highlight your dishonest, FDR acted terribly, immorally and against the ideals of this country when he ordered the interment of its own citizens for nothing other then genetics.

That's why waterboarding worked.

Except that it doesn't.

The Captain that fired a round next the head of an Iraqi terrorists saved his troops lives; considered torture... proving it works.

Explain to me how getting bad information "works."

To categorically say people will say anything is pure BS.
Torture works.

Since when where you a torture expert? Last I checked, those who actually understand the subject (hint: not you on virtually everything) say otherwise.

That is what professional analysts are for.
You don't really believe this is done willy-nilly do you.

And how do they make such judgements? How do we know that what people tortured say is actually legit when we know for a fact that people say anything to stop the pain?

There might be times a simple interview won't work, and not fast enough; some means of torture, like waterboarding, shouldn't be taken off the table.

I take it you haven't even bothered to read the report? Not surprising.

It's not a torture all proposition, it is one tactic in a greater strategy.

By such reasoning, all torture is not torture. Zyphlin summed this up quite nicely.

I'll even quote him:

"So for example...shoving bamboo shoots under peoples finger nails for the specific purpose to cause them pain and agony is torture. But shoving bamboo shoots under peoples finger nails because you have a reasonable belief that they have important information and you want them to give it to you is interrogation?"

And now you oppose this?
ROTFLMFAO
You, Mr. Social Engineer finally found some government program you would be against expanding.

Your lying is not appreciated.

Pretty funny, as this is the typical leftist world view; National Security and Defense is to be shrunk... while government social engineering schemes are to be expanded.
Too ****ing funny.

It's pretty funny how you call this list the "Agenda of the Left"

http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/46880-leftist-following-list.html

Pretend all you want I'm a leftist, unless you want to call the GOP leftist. Which I'd actually be okay with.

1. you think torture doesn't work.
2. you give a blanket assessment that using it all the time will produce crap; perhaps, but torture would be used in specific situations.

Incorrect. What I stated was that Mr. V's logic deduces that we should torture everyone as someone could have some information about some event in the future. That the mere possibility of information and an attack is grounds for mass torture. It would help if you actually read what people write for a change rather than assume whatever you want.

3. you neglect to note that some information accompanied by torture can produce the intended result.

Did I say that torture has given absolutely no good information?

No. I didn't. You again are lying. One has to wonder if you are capable of replying without the use of lies.
 
Is that essentially what you're saying?

Pretty much. Or more crudely, it's torture when they do it. It's intelligence gathering when we do it (never mind it's torture no matter what). Like how terrorists who favor our position are freedom fighters and terrorists who work against our positions are terrorists (never mind they are both terrorists regardless of their political desires.)
 
No offense, but by the look of your handle it doesn't appear you're Mr. V. so I'd rather not have you speaking for him
 
That's asinine. I assume then that you and your friends who have similar viewpoints as you have NEVER called somebody unamerican then? After all, how can someone be unamerican if America has no values which can be offended? Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you polled the people who agreed with your stance on torture you'd find quite a bit who throw around "traitor" "socialist" "unamerican" etc. all day long.
You do realize that this is irrational to the point of incoherency.

Principles may (or may not) have the quality of being "American". That is not at all the same thing as claiming (incorrectly) that the United States of America collectively hews to such principles. From a legal perspective, the government, having legal status as a person, may espouse principles of law to which the government will adhere. The President may (and arguably should) articulate principles of conduct that will inform the actions of members of his Administration. However, only individual people have the capacity to internalize specific moral principles and apply them in their daily life. Arguing to the contrary is merely foolishness.

This is of course assuming your post was logically sound and worth replying... which it was not.
The witticisms of the left are on a par with their logic. How sad for you.
 
This shows the kind of dishonesty your ilk are trying to pass off on the rest of us with regards to this torture issue. You ask the question like you already KNEW he had information. Truth is you didn't know jack. You fail to mention the VAST majority of the people you tortured were completely innocent. Oh sure, you get info from one or two guys but you've done evil to hundreds. I'm sure Jesus would be very proud of you. :roll:
Don't know what Jesus would think of me. Have yet to speak to him; will make a point to ask should I run into him.

As for dishonesty, that is balderdash. It is a very specifically drawn hypothetical addressing a very specific moral question. As such, it is itself complete and wholly self-contained.

The dishonesty is the arbitrary introduction of other assumptions not part of the original situation then using them as supposed justification for sanctimonious condemnation of the original scenario.

(It's also the logical fallacy of the straw man, but given the other flaws in your riposte, why quibble about mere logic?)
 
:rofl

You're not folling anyone? You realise that.

Bottomline in these cases none of the situations where anything like the live or death, ticking timebomb scenarios that keep being brought up. When you imply they are and then don't like being called on it, you aren't actually folling anyone.

Would you torture a person in order to save the lives of your family or countrymen? It's a terribly simply question.
 
And that would still hold true. When you look at how some countries have treated captured prisoners waterboarding is incredibly light in comparison.

It does no bodily harm for heavens sake.

Actually, the McCain statement applies to waterboarding as well. It's difficult to gloss over the fact that waterboarding is torture, so McCain's statement applies perfectly. If you are willing to embrace torture as policy, at least recognize the American values - hell, the univeral values - that you are throwing away when doing so.

Again, it's appalling to me that an uncomfortably large segment of the American population suppport this type of cruelty as an interrogation technique. It seems like we would all readily support taking the universal/absolute "moral high road" when it comes to policies like murder, rape, and torture, but apparently not.
 
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I am not making a value judgment on the efficacy of waterboarding, whether or not it is torture, or whether it should be used. Last year, we had a thread that lasted over 3 months and 1000+ post on this. There, my position was that waterboarding is inefficient, it is torture, and it should not be used. My position remains the same. And for the reason that I am citing, here. It is irrelevant as to whether waterboarding is worse or better, physically than sleep deprivation. It is torture and leads to lasting negative mental effects.

Inefficient how?

Sleep dev takes the better part of a week and the subject ends up loopy anyway.

WB takes a couple of hours depending on the informant.

Information can be checked out usually referencing persons,places, or things so you know pretty quick how accurate the information is.


At the very least its time efficient.

Waterboarding is both stressful and torturous. At least as stressful and torturous as watching the President, house, and senate pile up our taxpayer dollars and light them on fire in a ritualized sacrifice to service their banker masters.
 
If you are willing to embrace torture as policy, at least recognize the American values - hell, the universal values - that you are throwing away when doing so.

Universal huh? If it were universal, wouldn't it have to be embraced by everybody? I can think of several places that would do worse to enemies of their state, so who is this group of universalists that decided something was morally correct or not?

Besides, I get told all the time by leftists, that morality is subjective and there is no right or wrong morals. So now all the sudden, we are morally bankrupt, because we violated a non-existent set of universal morals? I am scratching my head.....
 
Very well I wish you to link the memos detailing the results of the techniques released by Obama.
You have them right?

You are not basing an opinion on what is or what is not on only half the information available are you?

No way!... because you uphold the "principles" of the USA..like JUSTICE.


You are not "We"..
Obama is not "We"..
Release the memos that showed the results and allow the American people to determine whether the actions taken in their minds was beyond the pale.


Seems the Left has forgotten its own rhetoric..again.

I believe that any such information should be released and believe that it will.

However, that said, I don't need to see that information to know that torture is wrong. It is not a relative term to be justified, if even possible, by numbers.
Is torture ok if it saves 1 life...if it saves 100 or 1000.
No...its either wrong or it isn't. We as a country either engage in it or we are better than that...period.
 
Universal huh? If it were universal, wouldn't it have to be embraced by everybody? I can think of several places that would do worse to enemies of their state, so who is this group of universalists that decided something was morally correct or not?

Besides, I get told all the time by leftists, that morality is subjective and there is no right or wrong morals. So now all the sudden, we are morally bankrupt, because we violated a non-existent set of universal morals? I am scratching my head.....

Your leftist friends need to be corrected. There are moral issues that are not subjective and do, in fact, appear to be moral absolutes. For instance, it's impossible to imagine a society where murder or rape of the citizenry is commonplace and legal policy. No such society could exist, therefore the morality of murder and rape are universal tenets. However, there are those morality issues which are indeed subjective - homosexual marriage, for instance, or a woman's right to choose - so this gives creedence to the argument of moral subjectiveness. At least some degree of it.

I am confused by what you mean by "we are morally bankrupt". I don't practice torture, nor do I endorse it. I certainly align myself against torture as policy, neither does a very large portion of our population, so there is no "we" about it. As for myself, i'm appalled at those in our country who endorse it, and I stand against those people. Those who do favor it as policy, however, must realize that what they are endorsing is a moral issue, one on which they reside on the lesser end.

It seems like some folks who support torture are comfortable with that to some degree. After all, they argue, morals don't add up to a hill of beans if everyone is dead from terrorist attacks. That's a teleological argument, and I disagree with it. I don't think torture should become policy, nor should we as a nation practice it in any form. Torture is torture, and no matter how you slice it, it's morally reprehensible.
 
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Your leftist friends need to be corrected. There are moral issues that are not subjective and do, in fact, appear to be moral absolutes. For instance, it's impossible to imagine a society where murder or rape of the citizenry is commonplace and legal policy. No such society could exist, therefore the morality of murder and rape are universal tenets. However, there are those morality issues which are indeed subjective - homosexual marriage, for instance, or a woman's right to choose - so this gives creedence to the argument of moral subjectiveness. At least some degree of it.

I am confused by what you mean by "we are morally bankrupt". I don't practice torture, nor do I endorse it. I certainly align myself against torture as policy, neither does a very large portion of our population, so there is no "we" about it. As for myself, i'm appalled at those in our country who endorse it, and I stand against those people. Those who do favor it as policy, however, must realize that what they are endorsing is a moral issue, one on which they reside on the lesser end.

It seems like some folks who support torture are comfortable with that to some degree. After all, they argue, morals don't add up to a hill of beans if everyone is dead from terrorist attacks. That's a teleological argument, and I disagree with it. I don't think torture should become policy, nor should we as a nation practice it in any form. Torture is torture, and no matter how you slice it, it's morally reprehensible.

Sure there are societies where murder and rape is acceptable. Hell Hitler had a powerful Empire going, and he was shoveling Jews into fireplaces. So to say that a society cannot exist, if it violates some kind of set of universal morals you argue exists, you would be wrong. They can exist, and they can become quite powerful.

I personally don't have a problem with torturing enemy combatants. Its war. I personally feel that our society is spending too much time trying to turn our military and its system into some kind of civilian like court system. I think it weakens us on the battlefield. We are supposed to be fighting and winning wars and doing whatever it takes to be successful. If we are willing to subject our own men to these methods of torture, for training purposes, then there is no loss of morals to be willing to do it to enemy combatants who likely deserve it. In fact thats how I'd frame it. Whatever techniques we are willing to use on our troops, we should at least be allowed to use on the enemy. Unless you want to argue that we are taking the moral low ground, by training our troops in this manner too?

I think a Commander in Chief needs to quit worrying about others perceptions, and just worry about taking care of his country, whatever the cost. Victory, by any means, is much more paletable to me, than losing for some intangible ideal. I am odly enough reminded of Woody Harrelson in White Men Can't Jump. Where he states "You'd rather look pretty and lose, than look ugly and win". Me, I embrace victory, and I see torture as a tool that we can use, when necessary, to ensure victory.
 
High value is a matter of opinion. Torture has specific uses, it is sometimes good for getting info on specific plans and only if you have other info to back it up and enough knowledgbe to trawl through the usual large amount of dubious info thrown in.

But whether it gives decent info is something very different to whether it should be used, whether it is worth the dishonour and the precedent.
The difference is the man with the opinion has the expertise to know whether the information was valuable, while you don't.
 
Sure there are societies where murder and rape is acceptable. Hell Hitler had a powerful Empire going, and he was shoveling Jews into fireplaces. So to say that a society cannot exist, if it violates some kind of set of universal morals you argue exists, you would be wrong. They can exist, and they can become quite powerful.

No, there has never been a society where murder and rape are commonplace and endorsed policy. Such societies cannot exist. There have been societies where the government has committed atrocities upon its people up to and including murder, but those societies did not have murder as an endorsable policy for the citizenry.

Hitler-controlled Germany is an excellent example of this. Hitler could kill whoever he wanted to among his citizenry, but it was not commonplace practice endorsed by law. Hitler and the government could kill who they wanted to. The average citizen could not. The policy of murder was not endorsed, although it was practiced by those in charge. Such examples of government cruelty are commonplace throughout our history, but murder or rape has never been endorsed.

Can you think of a society that has ever existed where murder or rape was commonplace, and adopted as policy? In other words, can you think of one society in our history where the population could slaughter or rape others within that group without any legal consequence?

No. It's impossible. No such society has ever existed, nor could it.

I personally don't have a problem with torturing enemy combatants. Its war. I personally feel that our society is spending too much time trying to turn our military and its system into some kind of civilian like court system. I think it weakens us on the battlefield. We are supposed to be fighting and winning wars and doing whatever it takes to be successful. If we are willing to subject our own men to these methods of torture, for training purposes, then there is no loss of morals to be willing to do it to enemy combatants who likely deserve it.

That would actually be incorrect from a philosophical standpoint. Torture is torture. If you are barbaric enough to practice it on your own citizenry - including military citizenry - then you are most certainly not taking the moral high road. But assuming your argument is correct about practicing these techniques on our soldiers, keep in mind that, although the practice may be barbaric, if one becomes hurt or injured, the process halts immediately. Not so with enemy combatants. This is carried out until the goal is reached. There is no halting due to injury.


I think a Commander in Chief needs to quit worrying about others perceptions, and just worry about taking care of his country, whatever the cost. Victory, by any means, is much more paletable to me, than losing for some intangible ideal. I am odly enough reminded of Woody Harrelson in White Men Can't Jump. Where he states "You'd rather look pretty and lose, than look ugly and win". Me, I embrace victory, and I see torture as a tool that we can use, when necessary, to ensure victory.

Then you favor shoving morality out the door on the issue, plain and simple. And that is exactly what I said above. You would be willing to put morality aside in order to achieve victory, even if that means torture. The problem arises when you attempt to reconcile this belief as being moral, when it most certainly is not.
 
No, there has never been a society where murder and rape are commonplace and endorsed policy. Such societies cannot exist. There have been societies where the government has committed atrocities upon its people up to and including murder, but those societies did not have murder as an endorsable policy for the citizenry.

Hitler-controlled Germany is an excellent example of this. Hitler could kill whoever he wanted to among his citizenry, but it was not commonplace practice endorsed by law. Hitler and the government could kill who they wanted to. The average citizen could not. The policy of murder was not endorsed, although it was practiced by those in charge. Such examples of government cruelty are commonplace throughout our history, but murder or rape has never been endorsed.

Can you think of a society that has ever existed where murder or rape was commonplace, and adopted as policy? In other words, can you think of one society in our history where the population could slaughter or rape others within that group without any legal consequence?

No. It's impossible. No such society has ever existed, nor could it.



That would actually be incorrect from a philosophical standpoint. Torture is torture. If you are barbaric enough to practice it on your own citizenry - including military citizenry - then you are most certainly not taking the moral high road. But assuming your argument is correct about practicing these techniques on our soldiers, keep in mind that, although the practice may be barbaric, if one becomes hurt or injured, the process halts immediately. Not so with enemy combatants. This is carried out until the goal is reached. There is no halting due to injury.




Then you favor shoving morality out the door on the issue, plain and simple. And that is exactly what I said above. You would be willing to put morality aside in order to achieve victory, even if that means torture. The problem arises when you attempt to reconcile this belief as being moral, when it most certainly is not.
Let me ask you, is war moral or not? And who decides if it's moral or not. If the Congress supports a war, then the people have spoken. The morality is moot. When war is the selected option, then everything that goes with it. Now it's obvious that the purpose of your moral argument is not national security. Your purpose is to hinder victory. Basically you want Bush to fail.
 
It's better to let people die then offend the weak by using "torture".
What a portrait of your morals was painted by your post! Thank God people who think like you are on the outside looking in and sanity, honor and dignity are being restored in the USA.
 
Then you favor shoving morality out the door on the issue, plain and simple. And that is exactly what I said above. You would be willing to put morality aside in order to achieve victory, even if that means torture. The problem arises when you attempt to reconcile this belief as being moral, when it most certainly is not.
Conducting war on strictly moral grounds results in defeat--every time.

War is at best morally neutral, and most likely morally repugnant. War is organized violence and butchery on a grand scale; this is the nature of war. No widely accepted system of morality approves of violence and butchery on even a small scale. There is no "moral" way to conduct war.

What war sometimes is, in the course of human events, is necessary. It is the quintessential necessary evil. Being intrinsically and inherently evil, the most moral thing one can do it prosecute war in such fashion as to bring it quickly and decisively to an end--paradoxically obtaining a veneer of morality by working to minimize the partaking of immorality.

Which thus leaves us with a most utilitarian and effective justification for the methods of war--including harsh interrogation/torture techniques--if it produces usable results, if it leads to victory, if it serves to reduce war by so much as a day, it is justified, for no other reason than it is the least evil of options.

Is that shoving morality out the door? Perhaps. Is it how wars get won? Definitely.
 
I feel so much safer knowing people like you are in the WH right now. I mean, who cares if I and my family happen to die... I can die knowing my country didn't water board some guy who COULD have saved my life.
:roll:

Seriously, Al-Quada needs to stopmucking around and nuke New York City so the world can see what's really at stake. Beter yet, Nuke New York and we find out that the USA had a man in custordy that KNEW of the attack and could have stopped it, but we were too "nice" and didn't do anything.
You seriously need to seek out help! Wanting anyone to use nuclear weapons is pure evil and makes you, Mr Vicchio the equal in evil of Al Qaeda.

Your post is one of the most offensive that I've ever read here or anywhere.
 
Let me ask you, is war moral or not?

By war, I am assuming you mean the defender, as the aggressor is obvious. No, for reasons that you and I would both agree on. Since we are chatting about philosophy, i'll quote one of my personal fave's, John Stuart Mill, as I believe he summed it up much nicer than I could.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse."

If the Congress supports a war, then the people have spoken. The morality is moot.

That would be incorrect on two counts.

1. When Congress speaks, it is the representatives of the people, not the people themselves, that have spoken. If we do not like what they say, we overthrow the current governmental regime every few years in the form of elections.

2. The morality is not moot simply because the Congress, the White House, or even the majority of the citizenry endorse it. Morality is not a utilitarian issue, nor is it based upon the mere actions of a governmental body's decision.

When war is the selected option, then everything that goes with it.

Not true. Take Abu Graib or Guantanamo, for instance. Or the Japanese internment camps during WWII. War was certainly "the selected option" by Congress and our President, but would you say that these issues were 100% morally correct? I wouldn't, because many of the activities that went on there are morally suspect. The only real debatable thing in these examples was the necessity of doing them - not the issue of morality here (for example, it was morally wrong to imprison the Japanese American citizenry in internment camps during WWII, but was it necessary?)

Now it's obvious that the purpose of your moral argument is not national security. Your purpose is to hinder victory. Basically you want Bush to fail.

That would be an incorrect assumption. Furthermore, i'd be interested to know where you came to such an off-base conclusion. Last I checked, we were discussing the morality of torturing enemy combatants, which I oppose because it is immoral. Can you show me where I said or even implied that I wanted to "hinder victory" and "want Bush to fail"?
 
Conducting war on strictly moral grounds results in defeat--every time.

War is at best morally neutral, and most likely morally repugnant. War is organized violence and butchery on a grand scale; this is the nature of war. No widely accepted system of morality approves of violence and butchery on even a small scale. There is no "moral" way to conduct war.

What war sometimes is, in the course of human events, is necessary. It is the quintessential necessary evil. Being intrinsically and inherently evil, the most moral thing one can do it prosecute war in such fashion as to bring it quickly and decisively to an end--paradoxically obtaining a veneer of morality by working to minimize the partaking of immorality.

Which thus leaves us with a most utilitarian and effective justification for the methods of war--including harsh interrogation/torture techniques--if it produces usable results, if it leads to victory, if it serves to reduce war by so much as a day, it is justified, for no other reason than it is the least evil of options.

Is that shoving morality out the door? Perhaps. Is it how wars get won? Definitely.

I agree entirely, with the exception of "perhaps". Change that to "yes" (although the most hardcore moral subjectivists would disagree with that).
 
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