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Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

I personally don't understand - nor will I ever understand - an American citizen endorsing torture on another human being for purposes of information, security, or both. Far too many people rally behind the belief that we are engaging in torture to protect our country, but what about the basic human values we believe in? If torture and cruelty become policy, then so much for our belief in individual rights. The Constitution recognizes that man has an inherent right, not bestowed by the state or laws, to liberty of person and personal dignity - including the right to be free of cruelty. The spirit and ideals in the Constitution applies to all human beings, not just those in America. It even applies to those designated as 'unlawful enemy combatants.' The Constitution embodies every ideal and value we believe in as a nation, and that better men than myself gave their lives to secure. I don't think we should throw all this away just to get information which could be gathered in a more humane way. Honestly...the fact that so many people embrace torture as potential policy is somewhat disturbing to me.

I'm not sure if McCain ever flip-flopped on the torture issue, but he had a damn good quote on the subject.

"Our enemies didn't adhere to the Geneva Convention. Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane and degrading treatment, a few of them even unto death. But every one of us -- every single one of us -- knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them, that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committing or countenancing such mistreatment of them." - John McCain

How quaint to post this quote when the end result of that war was allowing the North Vietnamese to not only get away with their war crimes and illegal torture and abuse of their prisoners, but allow them to break their treaty with us and our ally and re-invade an ally we promised to aid in that event and instead abandoned; which resulted in the subsequent deaths of untold millions.

How trite for Liberals to argue about morality but who think NOTHING about the sanctity of life for an unborn child or a family pleading to keep their daughter alive through artificial means, and not blink an eye at the efforts and crimes committed by those the previous Administration tried to protect us from using humane forms to extract critical information.

This issue is almost as hypocritical and offensive as their idiotic rants about the tiny deficits during the same administration they claim are war criminals yet now think NOTHING of $1.8 trillion deficits without any debate about how to pay for them.

It is as specious as suggesting that the 3,000 plus men and women of our military died not because of the actions of despicable terrorists who want to kill even greater numbers of our citizens, but rather would blame the previous administration; you cannot fabricate the level of ignorance it takes to make such asinine arguments.

The only thing MORE amazing than these patently partisan political asinine attempts is that MORE Americans haven't been saying enough is enough!

We ought to impeach the entire Democrat House and Senate leaders and this President for rabid ignorance, naiveté and stupidity.
 
The US government should everything in its power to protect the rights of the people of the United States. If the only way the government can keep US cities from evaporating into a radiactive cloud is to torture someone, then by anny and all means, they should tortue them.

If you do not agree, then I do not want you in the US government.

Not to do everything possible is the definition of immorality.

Which means...

.
 
Not to do everything possible is the definition of immorality.
Which means...
Imagine, the press conference:
"I decided to not subject this individual to torture, knowing full well that this decision would certainly and definitely result in a nuclear weapon detonating somewhere in Los Angeles."
-B. Obama
 
You show me where in the constitution where it says that welfare is illegal and I'll start to take you seriously.

The problem there Indy, is that the Constitution is exceptionally vague about what 'general welfare' means. While the anti-side likes to clamor that it is unconstitutional, they have no actual legitimate grounds to do so. Likewise, those clamoring for more programs don't have anything other than shaky foundations for such programs' legitimacy within the Constitution. Furthermore, the argument that we should view such programs through the eyes of the founders is pretty insane given just how radically the world has changed.
 
You highlighted the wrong part.

The capacity to read alludes many here.

This clause creates the power to tax; it doesn't create the power to create the welfare state. Taxes may be used to pay for various things, including the common defense and the general welfare, but this clause doesn't convey the power to do anything other than to tax.

Indeed, the Constitution does not explicitly lay out the right to create programs to create a welfare state (nor does it say we can make nuclear weapons). However, what Indy cited clearly does allow Congress to levy taxes to pay for general welfare. The question is what is general welfare? Furthermore, Indy did not suggest anywhere in his posts that he supports a cradle to grave welfare system. Earned income tax credit is welfare. It is hardly a cradle to grave welfare program as it requires people to work to get anything. You are again showing why you are considered the #1 dishonest poster here. Instead of addressing what he wrote, you instead choose to fabricate an argument and then dishonestly attack Indy as if he said it.

So, my statement stands -- no power to create = unconstitutional.

Except that you have failed to define what general welfare is.

But you are clearly displaying double standards.

The Constitution strictly prohibits funding in excess of two years for a standing army. We have done this so many times that no one can keep track. Therefore, much of the current military was and is funded by Unconstitutional measures. Where your argument on general welfare is largely semantics, here is an actual strictly prohibits clause which parties of both sides have flagrantly violated time after time.

And you ignored this:

"To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers,"

As the power to provide for general welfare is explicitly stated, Congress by the Constitution has the power to make laws necessary to carry out such powers.

So the question comes back to again, which neither you nor Indy have defined, What is General Welfare?

Show me where the constitution it says the government shalll have the power to create the welfare state, and I'll start to take you seriously.

Maybe he'll start taking you serious when you stop using such obvious dishonest fabrications?
 
We're at war, the so called torture is to obtain intelligence, which is a standard part of any war.

It's not "so-called torture", it is torture - plain and simple. That's why i'm against it. I don't believe torture should become policy and used against enemy combatants on the grounds that it's gravely immoral.

Perhaps you think America is something different, but I believe we should be above things like this. We don't need to adopt torture, or genocide, or any other terribly immoral policy simply on the basis that "this is war".
 
It's not "so-called torture", it is torture - plain and simple. That's why i'm against it. I don't believe torture should become policy and used against enemy combatants on the grounds that it's gravely immoral.
Why is it torture "plain and simple"?

And why is torture itself immoral?
 
How quaint to post this quote when the end result of that war was allowing the North Vietnamese to not only get away with their war crimes and illegal torture and abuse of their prisoners, but allow them to break their treaty with us and our ally and re-invade an ally we promised to aid in that event and instead abandoned; which resulted in the subsequent deaths of untold millions.

And that has what to do with the fact that torture is immoral and should not be policy in the US, exactly?

Perhaps you may want to tie your little story in with something that makes an argument for your position rather than enumerating reasons you disagreed with Nixon getting us out of Vietnam.

How trite for Liberals to argue about morality but who think NOTHING about the sanctity of life for an unborn child or a family pleading to keep their daughter alive through artificial means, and not blink an eye at the efforts and crimes committed by those the previous Administration tried to protect us from using humane forms to extract critical information.

As a geneticist, i've never understood why people mistakenly assume that an embryo is a rational, autonomous human life, but that's an argument for another thread. Suffice to say i'm assuming that you recognize your own error in labelling waterboarding as a "humane form to extract critical information"? I can think of absolutely nothing humane about this practice, and neither can you.


This issue is almost as hypocritical and offensive as their idiotic rants about the tiny deficits during the same administration they claim are war criminals yet now think NOTHING of $1.8 trillion deficits without any debate about how to pay for them.

It is as specious as suggesting that the 3,000 plus men and women of our military died not because of the actions of despicable terrorists who want to kill even greater numbers of our citizens, but rather would blame the previous administration; you cannot fabricate the level of ignorance it takes to make such asinine arguments.

The only thing MORE amazing than these patently partisan political asinine attempts is that MORE Americans haven't been saying enough is enough!

We ought to impeach the entire Democrat House and Senate leaders and this President for rabid ignorance, naiveté and stupidity.

I'm assuming in your heated argument against all things Democrat that you recognize the numerous failures of the Republicans on many issues of their own, no? Prohibition of federal funding for embryonic stem cell research, for example, as well as the Abu Ghraib prison torture fiasco, the causes and prelude to the Iraqi War, Hurricane Katrina, etc.

Those are topics for other threads, of course, but nowhere in your post did I see any moral justification for the topic in which I assume you disagree with me over, namely that torture is/is not acceptable policy.
 
Supporters of torture think it is worth it to torture terrorists to get info that prevents an attack and thus spares lives (they seem mostly concerned about their own).

Yes, IF we tortured and IF that person knew and IF we got info and IF it prevented an attack, great! But the odds of that are something like 0.0001%. To take a long shot like that and destroy the reputation of the US as a result is nuts. If you're that worried about dying, don't ever get in an automobile.
 
And that has what to do with the fact that torture is immoral and should not be policy in the US, exactly?
"Torture is immoral" is not a fact but an assertion.

Has anyone here demonstrated precisely how it is immoral?
 
Supporters of torture think it is worth it to torture terrorists to get info that prevents an attack and thus spares lives (they seem mostly concerned about their own).

Yes, IF we tortured and IF that person knew and IF we got info and IF it prevented an attack, great! But the odds of that are something like 0.0001%. To take a long shot like that and destroy the reputation of the US as a result is nuts. If you're that worried about dying, don't ever get in an automobile.
Please provide a link to your calculations.
 
Why is it torture "plain and simple"?

I'm assuming that your argument is that it is not torture, yes?

In that case, let me explain my statement to you, then see if you agree. First, it stands to mention the standard textbook definition of torture, "the act of causing great physical or mental pain in order to persuade someone to do something or to give information, or as an act of cruelty to a person or animal." (Cambridge Dictionaries Online - Cambridge University Press). It stands to reason that almost everyone would agree that horrible physical acts constitute torture, no? Actions like we have heard about taking place throughout history - the old "bamboo shoots under the fingernails", or the iron maiden, for instance - the average person up to the most noted scholar would say that these things are most definitely torture.

By definition, mental actions upon the agent being tortured fulfills this definition as well. A study done a few years ago by a team of scientists demonstrated that "...mental and physical torture cause the same amount of harm and are indistinguishable in their long term impact on psychological health." (Archives of General Psychiatry, article found online at Mental And Physical Torture Do The Same Psychological Harm Say Researchers).

Now, is waterboarding torture? Let's put aside the fact that many politicians, legal experts, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations claim it as such. Let's ask ourselves if the act of waterboarding itself is torture by observing the behavior of those being waterboarded.

Watching these videos, would you say that these actions are examples of torture given the textbook definition? Again, let's ignore ALL bias or context and take the act of waterboarding at face value.

First video:
Journalist Waterboarded for 15 Seconds

Second video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58"]YouTube - Watch Christopher Hitchens Get Waterboarded (VANITY FAIR)[/ame]

Third video:

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Has anyone here demonstrated precisely how it is immoral?

I assume that most people believe torture to be immoral by nature of the very act of torture - same with murder or rape. One hardly attempts to justify the latter as moral. What i've been reading on this thread is the attempted justification of torture, that it saves lives, or it is needed for victory, etc. I'm assuming no one on this thread attempted to say that torture isn't immoral, although I may have missed it as I didn't read the entire 11+ pages thusfar. Nonetheless, if you wish to debate on the morality of torture, I would be happy to oblige you.

In any case, I would be interested in hearing your opinions after watching the videos I linked. I tried to watch them myself from an unbiased, absolute viewpoint, but I found it difficult after doing so to believe anything besides the act of waterboarding being one of torture, plain and simple. I really would like to see a more scientific (maybe documentary-style) demonstration of the exact effects of the torture, but I wasn't able to find any.
 
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"Torture is immoral" is not a fact but an assertion.

That's not true at all. Would you say that the statement "murder is immoral" is an assertion as well? No, because there is absolute reason behind murder being immoral. Same with rape. And yes, the same with torture. All three of those have the benefit of perplexing even the most hardcore moral subjectivist; after all, in no society is it possible to imagine any of the three becoming commonplace and acceptable policy.
 
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That's not true at all. Would you say that the statement "murder is immoral" is an assertion as well?
Yes, I would--because it is.

No, because there is absolute reason behind murder being immoral. Same with rape. And yes, the same with torture. All three of those have the benefit of perplexing even the most hardcore moral subjectivist; after all, in no society is it possible to imagine any of the three becoming commonplace and acceptable policy.

  1. The "reasons" (which you have not enumerated) are justifications for the assertion, no more than this.
  2. The premise that torture might be immoral does not perplex me in the slightest. I merely note that, amid all the piety about torture being immoral, I can recall no reason offered in support of the assertion. If torture is to be immoral, if the acts of CIA interrogators are to be counted as torture and thus immoral, we must be able to say with certainty why it is that torture should be immoral, else we have no foundation to say that these specific acts, be they torture or no, are immoral.
 
Yes, I would--because it is.

  1. The "reasons" (which you have not enumerated) are justifications for the assertion, no more than this.


  1. As rational, autonomous human beings, we generally determine what is moral or immoral, no? If torture weren’t considered "morally evil", then we wouldn’t find people condemning it when their enemies engage in torture. In fact, acts of torture are readily offered as proof that the enemy is barbaric and, among those who are more revenge-oriented, deserved of the same treatment, which in turn facillitates the actions of some of these same people to turn around and pretend that this justifies their using torture or other barbaric tactics against others. There is no serious disagreement that torture is a moral evil. If I were to ask you, point blank, "Mr. Celticlord, is torture morally evil?", your response would be "yes it is".

    If it is not, then I would love to hear your explanation and philosophical rationalization behind such a belief.

    Civilized society doesn’t tolerate torture, mostly because it doesn’t it doesn't always work and it utterly dehumanizes both those who inflict the torture as well as those who must suffer through it. To me, there’s no good reason to engage in something so immoral and dehumanizing. Torture is wrong, both ethically and pragmatically. It is only defended by those who don’t care that it doesn’t work or who lack the ethical skills necessary to perceive that the deliberate infliction of severe suffering or pain is evil and should not be allowed. It's a matter of ethical behavior - an individual who is okay with torturing someone who may or may not be a terrorist, who may or may not know information which will save people’s lives, and whose suffering probably won’t produce any viable intelligence, is not behaving ethically.

    There is also the argument that it would reduce America to the same ethical level as those we fight against who employ such methods. To me, this is like suggesting that America should have adopted Nazi tactics in order to defeat World War II Germany. It exhibits no confidence that ethical, moral, and democratic institutions will eventually win — but if that’s the case, then why support America over the terrorists? If anyone can be accused of giving “aid and comfort” to the enemy, it is those who encourage us to adopt the same unethical tactics or undemocratic methods as the enemy.

    Much of this is paraphrased from the philosophical link below.


    [*]The premise that torture might be immoral does not perplex me in the slightest. I merely note that, amid all the piety about torture being immoral, I can recall no reason offered in support of the assertion. If torture is to be immoral, if the acts of CIA interrogators are to be counted as torture and thus immoral, we must be able to say with certainty why it is that torture should be immoral, else we have no foundation to say that these specific acts, be they torture or no, are immoral.

But we do, which I summarized above. If you would like a more detailed explanation as to why torture is immoral, I think you would enjoy reading this:

Torture (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

It has a few really cool examples in there as well, and talks about the justification argument for torture, too, which i've seen on this thread. Since i'm more of a moral absolutist on the subject of torture, there are a number of reasons in the article I linked you to support an argument that torture is justified under certain circumstances; however, I saw none that justified torture for the sake of torture to be anything but immoral practice. The former argument has at least some philosophical justification, but there is none for claiming such harsh immoral acts are assertions. That is incorrect from an philosophical and ethical position.
 
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"Torture is immoral" is not a fact but an assertion.
Has anyone here demonstrated precisely how it is immoral?
Things can get tedious in a hurry in a political discussion if we are to question the utterly obvious at every turn. It can be fun philosophically, and we may all in fact be ice beetles living on the moons of Jupiter dreaming all of this, but in political discussions it helps to allow for certain basic assumptions. Such as: we are in fact human beings living on earth, and torture is immoral.
If you really need reasons from an ethical standpoint we could assert that it deprives human beings of their freedom, their autonomy and subjects them to the greatest suffering imaginable. If you’re more of a utilitarian we could (I will) assert that torture produces huge amounts of suffering and produces nothing good as a result.
Considering its direct effects on those involved, the tortured is subjected to severe pain, and, should they survive, lifelong psychological trauma equal to or exceeding the physical pain, forever and ever. For the torturer, they lose their humanity, and, if they should ever regain it, they too will be psychologically traumatized by the evil they committed and their capacity for it.
It further seems obviously repugnant to the principle of equality that one human being should deprive another person of their freedom for the purpose of imposing their sadistic impulses on them. It is not fairness to know that pain horror and humiliation is terrible to experience, and to enjoy forcing others to experience it. Torture is therefore akin to rape. It is the infliction of pain, horror and humiliation arising from sadistic impulses and it produces nothing good. You may argue that it is morally permissible if you like, but it will be a stretch, and if we actually believed this we would live senseless lives.
 
Things can get tedious in a hurry in a political discussion if we are to question the utterly obvious at every turn.
Before you assert what is obvious, you should consider Ethereal's poll regarding torture, and the ramifications of the responses.

The premise that all torture is always immoral is neither so certain nor so obvious as some wish it to be.
 
Things can get tedious in a hurry in a political discussion if we are to question the utterly obvious at every turn.
Ah... the a priori bomb.
Its not 'utterly obvious" that every instance of torture is always immoral.
 
The problem there Indy, is that the Constitution is exceptionally vague about what 'general welfare' means. While the anti-side likes to clamor that it is unconstitutional, they have no actual legitimate grounds to do so.
Except that little thing about the power to create these programs isnt found anywhere in the Constitution.
 
The capacity to read alludes many here.
As the desert said to the grain of sand.

Indeed, the Constitution does not explicitly lay out the right to create programs to create a welfare state
Then, you agree with me. Thanks.

However, what Indy cited clearly does allow Congress to levy taxes to pay for general welfare.
Yes... and what did I say about that?

The question is what is general welfare?
Except that you have failed to define what general welfare is.
As I stated:
That's found in the remaining powers goven to congress by article 1 section 8, as are the powers given to congress regarding 'the common defense'.

The powers to create legislation pursuant to provbiding for the 'general welfare':
-To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
-To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
-To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
-To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
-To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
-To establish post offices and post roads;
-To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
-To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

The powers pursuant to 'the common denese':
-To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
-To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
-To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
-To provide and maintain a navy;
-To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
-To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
-To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
-To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--

But you are clearly displaying double standards.
Hardly.

The Constitution strictly prohibits funding in excess of two years for a standing army. We have done this so many times that no one can keep track.
Please cite a single instance of this.
And, even then. all you're doing is arguing that these fundings are unconstitutional as well. Good for you! How does that affect the issue at hand?

And you ignored this:
"To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers,"
Yes... and for this claue to have any meaning, the laws must be pursuant to a power granted by the Constitition -- a power that doesnt exist, rendering moot any citation of the elastic clause.

Under your argument, the only powers necessary in Article I Section 8 are the first and the last -- and yet. there are 16 others.
Why do you suppose that is, if they are not there to define the powers of Congress pursuant to 'providing for the common defense and general welfare'

As the power to provide for general welfare is explicitly stated...
No... the power to TAX is explicitly stated.

Maybe he'll start taking you serious when you stop using such obvious dishonest fabrications?
Aside foirm the fact that you cannot show anything that I have 'fabricated'...
I guess he shant take you, or himself, seriously.
 
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It seems to me that there are 2 main views that are submitted in this thread.

1) Torture is immoral, but I'll still do it to save my family.

Here, in this stance, the person realizes that the act of torture is immoral, regardless of whether it is justifiable or not.

or,

2) Torture can be immoral, but torture isn't always immoral.

Here, while the person agrees that torture can be immoral, they believe that there are certain conditions where torture can be justifiable.


Both situations tend to lean towards torture. The 2nd more so that the 1st.
 
As the power to provide for general welfare is explicitly stated, Congress by the Constitution has the power to make laws necessary to carry out such powers.

So the question comes back to again, which neither you nor Indy have defined, What is General Welfare?

General:
1: involving, applicable to, or affecting the whole
2: involving, relating to, or applicable to every member of a class, kind, or group <the general equation of a straight line>
3: not confined by specialization or careful limitation
4: belonging to the common nature of a group of like individuals : generic
5 a: applicable to or characteristic of the majority of individuals involved : prevalent b: concerned or dealing with universal rather than particular aspects
6: relating to, determined by, or concerned with main elements rather than limited details <bearing a general resemblance to the original>
7: holding superior rank or taking precedence over others similarly titled <the general manager>
Welfare:
1: the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity <must look out for your own welfare>
2 a: aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need b: an agency or program through which such aid is distributed.

In every sense, "general" is applicable to the aggregate, and not to the particular. When we speak of "general" things, except in reference to title (definition #7), we speak of a group, and not of individual elements.

Therefore, if we apply "general" to "welfare" using welfare definition #1, "general welfare" becomes "the state of the people doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity."

Using welfare definition #2a, we encounter some difficulties, for that construction becomes "aid to the people in the form of money or necessities for those in need," which is internally contradictory. "those in need" is a particular reference, and is not "general" per the definitions above. However, even with welfare definition #2a, we may still consider "general welfare" to be assistances applicable to the group and not the individual.

Therein lies the constitutional flaw in laws establishing government welfare programs. The best justification for government welfare in the Constitution is the Preamble ("provide for the General Welfare"), but government welfare programs as enacted are not "general welfare" but "specific welfare". The government welfare programs are payments to discrete individuals, not expenditures on behalf of the whole of the people. There is no welfare assistance in the entire pantheon of government aid that is not intrinsically targeted for and used by individuals exclusively.

Yes, the United States government is charged to provide for the "General Welfare"; the welfare state, being as it is "specific welfare," is outside the scope of that charge. The United States government lacks the competence, under the Constitution, to dispense such largesse.
 
Then, you agree with me. Thanks.

Agreed. However, Indy never suggested that, thus rendering you guilty of what I accused you of in the previous posts.

The Constitution also does not explicitly lay out a great many things that we take for granted and cherish as Americans.

Yes... and what did I say about that?

Already addressed and shown in way that makes you a hypocrite.

And that list proves what again? Oh yes. Vagueness.


Oh this is amusing.

Please cite a single instance of this.
And, even then. all you're doing is arguing that these fundings are unconstitutional as well. Good for you! How does that affect the issue at hand?

Not very careful with the details eh?

"To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years"

Carrier funding for one. Generally those spending bills are in excess of 10 years.

All it shows is you are a hypocrite and applying double standards. Which you claimed you were not. Therefore rendering you either a liar or hard of reading.

Yes... and for this claue to have any meaning, the laws must be pursuant to a power granted by the Constitition -- a power that doesnt exist, rendering moot any citation of the elastic clause.

According to whom? It does state provide general welfare. You again have failed to define this other than the lie about a welfare state which was found nowhere in Indy's post. Again, you are relying on a fabricated argument instead of actually addressing what he wrote. It's a reason many people think you're the most dishonest person here.

Under your argument, the only powers necessary in Article I Section 8 are the first and the last -- and yet. there are 16 others.
Why do you suppose that is, if they are not there to define the powers of Congress pursuant to 'providing for the common defense and general welfare'

If you think that list defines the powers 'well' I'd like to speak to your former English teachers. That list is unbelievably vague.

No... the power to TAX is explicitly stated.

As is the power to provide general welfare. Which again, you have utterly failed to define in a reasonable, non-lying way.

Aside foirm the fact that you cannot show anything that I have 'fabricated'

Your entirely argument is predicated on Indy saying that the COTUS does not prohibit a welfare state. Nowhere in Indy's posts is that found. You directly, instead of discussing welfare programs in general, assumed otherwise and attacked him. I noticed you completely ignored my example of EITC which is welfare and hardly similar to a welfare state.

I see still trying to retain the title of DP's Liar King?
 
Not very careful with the details eh?

"To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years"

Carrier funding for one. Generally those spending bills are in excess of 10 years.
Not very careful with the details eh?

Carrier funding applies to the US Navy, which is not covered by the 2-year restriction, and which Congress is explicitly authorized to maintain as a standing force.
 
In every sense, "general" is applicable to the aggregate, and not to the particular.

Not quite.

"involving, relating to, or applicable to every member of a class, kind, or group" and pair that with "aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need b: an agency or program through which such aid is distributed" and it simply reads that any member of any class, kind of group that is in need of aid. And this does seem to describe today's programs as everyone from the super poor to the formerly super rich getting bailouts meets the of all classes in need. That of course doesn't make it right, but it meets the definition.

Using welfare definition #2a, we encounter some difficulties, for that construction becomes "aid to the people in the form of money or necessities for those in need," which is internally contradictory. "those in need" is a particular reference, and is not "general" per the definitions above. However, even with welfare definition #2a, we may still consider "general welfare" to be assistances applicable to the group and not the individual.

But if we apply the definition of "of all classes, kind and groups" then it means we provide welfare to anyone, who needs it across the whole. Again, as earlier stated, the super rich, middle class, poor and all in between who need help qualify under general welfare as general means of all classes, kinds and groups.

The government welfare programs are payments to discrete individuals, not expenditures on behalf of the whole of the people. There is no welfare assistance in the entire pantheon of government aid that is not intrinsically targeted for and used by individuals exclusively.

The problem with that argument is it that you are looking at specific programs rather than the whole. If there were programs that provided welfare to all groups, kinds and classes then Congress would be fulfilling the power and obligation under the COTUS. Merely because an individual program only provides welfare to one group does not mean that Congress cannot provide many programs that provide welfare to all classes, kinds and groups.
 
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