• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Simon W. Moon said:
It is not "DIRECTLY" responsible.
Click to expand...

Sure it was. It lead to the couriers as the intelligence approach for capturing/killing bin laden.


The courier is what lead us directly to bin laden.. Win!



Tim-
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
Umm.. In case you missed it, EIT was responsible, DIRECTLY responsible for the eventual capture of Bin Laden. It also lead to many interceptions of various terrorists plots purported to have been planned against the USA during the past 9 years.. KSM talked, various other Muslim's talked..
Click to expand...

Cite evidence (from an authoritative source who is free to speak his mind) that waterboarding caused KSM to talk, or that anything he said directly contributed to OBL's death (assuming the raid happened as the US described it).
 
Last edited:
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

megaprogman said:
I would disagree then. An immoral act for any reason is still an immoral act. It may be justified for the greater good, though. Such as stealing food to feed your family. You did good with the stealing, but you still stole.
Click to expand...

I believe people should get what they deserve. So if a terrorist who masterminded plots to bomb buildings is caught, I say beat the !@#$ out of him, let him have it.

Since I'm not Xtian, I don't have to abide by all the "Love thy neighbor" BS.

Although an exception should be made for foot soldiers, because they frequently are just brainwashed individuals who just followed orders without understanding the motives of those gave them.

However, I'm also a pragmatist. If torture techniques like waterboarding worked to extract information, then it should be used. However, all the experts, when interviewed when not under political pressure, claim torture is ineffectual. . .

A former federal agent who was involved in the interrogation of terrorism suspects said in congressional testimony Wednesday that the harsh techniques used by the Bush administration were ineffective and unreliable.

Ali Soufan told a Senate judicial committee that al-Qaeda operatives were trained to resist the harsh methods, including waterboarding, and argued that conventional interrogations were much more reliable in extracting information.

FBI Expert Refutes GOP Claims on Torture Effectiveness (video) (Wizbang Blue)
Click to expand...

That's from an actual ex-interrogator.

Whereas it appears the pro-EIT crowd, to back up its position, does not cite from ex-interrogators or outside psychologists or torture experts, but rather from politicians, media pundits, or individuals still working for the government who, obviously, cannot speak freely.
 
Last edited:
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
Sure it was. It lead to the couriers as the intelligence approach for capturing/killing bin laden.


The courier is what lead us directly to bin laden.. Win!



Tim-
Click to expand...

According to ex-interrogators, he merely supplied the alias of the courier, not his real name and/or his whereabouts.
 
Last edited:
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I wonder if any the pro-EIT people are aware that terrorists--at least the ones in the top levels of an organization--are trained to resist ig methods like waterboarding.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

solletica said:
I wonder if any the pro-EIT people are aware that terrorists--at least the ones in the top levels of an organization--are trained to resist ig methods like waterboarding.
Click to expand...

After all the talk of what waterboarding actually is, if I were subjected to it, I would be relieved. I would know it wouldn't kill me. The anti-EIT people and all the attention they brought to it taught me that, and I'm not even top level in my organization.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

ecofarm said:
I don't think waterboarding three terrorists under ticking-bomb circumstances constitutes a loss of humanity, decency or morality.
Click to expand...

Only such a situation doesn't real exist in the real world. To have exactly the right person with exactly the right information is more than a little unlikely. Secondly, all the person has to do is lie, which is what is common. Meaning we likely could not get anything in time. One reason why other methods are more commonly used is because they are largely more effective.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

solletica said:
Cite evidence (from an authoritative source who is free to speak his mind) that waterboarding caused KSM to talk, or that anything he said directly contributed to OBL's death (assuming the raid happened as the US described it).
Click to expand...

John Yoo
Leon Panetta
Jose Rodriguez
Michael Hayden
George Tenet

All of these individuals have stated that KSM talked, because he was tortured and conventional interrogation methods had failed.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Boo Radley said:
Only such a situation doesn't real exist in the real world. To have exactly the right person with exactly the right information is more than a little unlikely. Secondly, all the person has to do is lie, which is what is common. Meaning we likely could not get anything in time. One reason why other methods are more commonly used is because they are largely more effective.
Click to expand...

So, a person won't lie during a conventional interrogation?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

solletica said:
I wonder if any the pro-EIT people are aware that terrorists--at least the ones in the top levels of an organization--are trained to resist ig methods like waterboarding.
Click to expand...

They're not trained to resist sleep depreivation,food deprivation, or electric shock.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
CNSNews.com - CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

I guess this settles the debate on whether or not waterboarding works. Saved lives, caught terrorist. Good thing really.
Click to expand...

How many other people were waterboarded and didn't lead to any real information? I mean, you can't speak to any of the statistics; you cherry pick one circumstance and say "Huzzah! Waterboarding is great". It's fairly absurd.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Waterboarding should be discouraged for general questioning and encouraged when American lives are involved.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Did anybody think that not all terrorists are alike? One might talk if you just look at him wrong and another might hold secrets to his grave but to say that waterboarding won't work for a single terrorist is assinine at best.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

dontworrybehappy said:
Did anybody think that not all terrorists are alike? One might talk if you just look at him wrong and another might hold secrets to his grave but to say that waterboarding won't work for a single terrorist is assinine at best.
Click to expand...

I assume you argue to torture them all for the chance it may work on one?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

apdst said:
John Yoo
Leon Panetta
Jose Rodriguez
Michael Hayden
George Tenet

All of these individuals have stated that KSM talked, because he was tortured and conventional interrogation methods had failed.
Click to expand...

Need to read carefully. . .

Cite evidence (from an authoritative source who is free to speak his mind) that waterboarding caused KSM to talk, or that anything he said directly contributed to OBL's death (assuming the raid happened as the US described it).
Click to expand...

Panetta works for the govt and is therefore unable to speak freely.

The other 4 are not torture experts, psychologists, nor even igs. They are merely bureaucratic heads whose credibility is in shambles given their stance on Iraq WMDs.

It's hard to believe that they're telling the truth when they've lied in the past and their statements are directly contradicted by the people who actually did the interrogations.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

apdst said:
They're not trained to resist sleep depreivation,food deprivation, or electric shock.
Click to expand...

Yes they are--they know that all they have to do to make it stop is tell the igs some bs that sounds plausible. The 'ol Princess Leia trick.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
CNSNews.com - CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

I guess this settles the debate on whether or not waterboarding works. Saved lives, caught terrorist. Good thing really.
Click to expand...

Good 'ol cia--the bastion of truth. . .

A former top CIA official pleaded guilty yesterday to lying to Congress about the Reagan administration's secret deals involving arms for Iran and money for the Nicaraguan contras.

Cia Veteran Lied About Iran-contra - Philly.com
Click to expand...
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
Wow really, you pulled this up for a clip from Rummy?

Really?
Click to expand...

Problems?????
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
How many other people were waterboarded and didn't lead to any real information? I mean, you can't speak to any of the statistics; you cherry pick one circumstance and say "Huzzah! Waterboarding is great". It's fairly absurd.
Click to expand...

Well, there were three waterboarded. Two of them have already had information released that confirms there was valuable intel obtained. The third one, we only have the word of top US officials that it yielded valuable information.

CT notwithstanding, the answer to your question is ZERO.

Is that going to make any difference to your entrenched position? No.
 
Last edited:
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

First Thought said:
Why is torture an option? :doh
Click to expand...

To risk the wrath of the UN which is a bunch of Anti-Americans to save hubdreds or thousands of lives is worth it.

Besiades from a report I saw yesterday there were only 3 or 4 in the Prison in Cuba that went through and most every high ranking afficer we have has been through it.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

The Prof said:
not in the case of ksm, the "preeminent source"
How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com
Click to expand...
The facts just don't support the conclusion that the EITs were the deciding factor. The facts don't rule it out either.

apdst said:
John Yoo
Leon Panetta
Jose Rodriguez
Michael Hayden
George Tenet
All of these individuals have stated that KSM talked, because he was tortured and conventional interrogation methods had failed.
Click to expand...
If you examine their actual quotes, you may find that this isn't exactly so.
Perhaps if we all saw the quotes you are referring to, we could all agree.

Councilman said:
.... most every high ranking afficer we have has been through it.
Click to expand...
According to the CIA Office of Medical Services, as quoted in the IG report, what happens in SERE class doesn't compare to what was done in the IETs. IIrc, the actual word used to describe the comparison between SERE classes and what happened in the EITs was "irrelevant."
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Simon W. Moon said:
The facts just don't support the conclusion that the EITs were the deciding factor.
Click to expand...

who said they were?

eit's happened to play an important role, with zebaydah, ksm, ghul and libi

so did gitmo, detention and wiretapping

so did assassination

it is what it is

move on

america is grateful for the anti terror policies of two presidents that enabled our heroic intel agents and navy seals to get the job done

and obama the neocon doesn't appear to be done, he's learning to like it

ask al awlaki
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I think that a lot depends on how much time you have to get the info out of them (is there a critical need that is time dependent), and how accurate can it be on the first pass (since you don't have a lot of time).

Given enough time, virtually all techniques work.

Now, to assume that we will be treated as we treat them, it just isn't going to happen, we have been and will continue to be the ones to play fair.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom