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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Simon W. Moon said:
No, it doesn't have to be shown to be poor. It merely has to be shown that it doesn't produce results that are better than other methods. Quite a big difference between "poor" and "not better than."

It would be more accurate to paraphrase what I have been saying as, "There's not been a reason to believe that EITs are worth the trouble when compared to other methods."

First, let me point out that this is a type of argument from ignorance. And my level knowledge, ( or lack thereof ), about the ins and outs of interrogating detainees doesn't provide any support for the idea that EITs are better than other methods. Even if I had no answer, it would not mean that EITs are better than other methods nor would it mean that they are not.
Now that that is out of the way.
Trickery is a common technique that comes up in the literature.
I have provided some links in this thread once or twice to some informative literature. I can provide them again if you like.


Again, the concern isn't about what the detainees--it's about the info we gain from them and the resources necessary to acquire it.
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I've read your links, I've read them before and it doesn't change anything. We have solid proof that EIT works, we do not have solid proof that any other methods are better..


Tim-
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
CNSNews.com - CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

I guess this settles the debate on whether or not waterboarding works. Saved lives, caught terrorist. Good thing really.
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The debate was never about the efficacy of waterboarding, at least not from me. The debate is regarding the fact that waterboarding is torture, and America does not/should not torture people.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

solletica said:
So the CIA falls for the propoganda of dictators and considers it evidence. Thanks for letting us know--we can all trust the CIA now.
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The CIA can't win, huh? Either they are infallable and the entire WMD thing is a giant conspiracy or they "fell for propaganda" and, in either case, they certainly cannot be trusted (you forgot the !).


One can't start at a conclusion, or we get a mess like that. If one is going to begin at a conclusion, don't make it so obvious - that defeats the point.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I just want to note, this claim was shown unlikley. As we tharted the plot before we captured KSM. Way back when, I gather this information. I'm not inclined to go do it again, but anyone who wants to can.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
I've read your links, I've read them before and it doesn't change anything. We have solid proof that EIT works, we do not have solid proof that any other methods are better..
Tim-
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It's not that other methods need to be shown as better, it's that it needs to be shown that EITs are more effective than ITs. If the EITS are only as effective as ITs or are less effective then IT should be chosen over EITs.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

1) I wonder why this is in Mainstream Media. Perhaps we should allow Truthout here too. This should be in Blogs.

2) If the 2003 waterboarding of 911 mastermind led to the information that got bin Laden, then why didn't Bush use it? Was he buddies with bin Laden? Of course, he wasn't. If waterboarding produced the info, then Bush would have had bin Laden killed by 2005 at the very latest.

3) It all boils down to CNS News, which produces some of the yellowest journalism in existence. So once again, I ask why is this is mainstream media? Do we allow Truthout, Informationclearinghouse, Newsmax, and similar sites here too, since they also claim to be producing news and not BS?
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

2) Expecting info to lead to mission accomplished by 2005 ("at the latest") is unreasonable.

:shrug:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Boo Radley said:
I just want to note, this claim was shown unlikley. As we tharted the plot before we captured KSM. Way back when, I gather this information.
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characteristically incoherent

are you from detroit?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I found a footnote in the IG report that some here might find interesting. So, I'll share:


footnote 26

According to the Chief, Medical Services, OMS was neither consulted nor involved in the initial analysis of the risk and benefits of EITs, nor provided with the OTS report cited in the OLC opinion. In retrospect, based on the OLC extracts of the OTS eport, OMS contends that the reported sophistication of the preliminary EIT review was exaggerated, at least as it related to the waterboard, and the power of this EIT was appreciably overstated in the report. Furthermore, OMS, contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologists/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. Consequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.​
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Truth Detector said:
Why is murder an option?
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because assassination, apparently, is the anti terror tactic employed by barack obama to eliminate ubl from planet earth

The commandos encountered gunshots from only one man, whom they quickly killed, before sweeping the house and shooting others, who were unarmed, a senior defense official said in the latest account.
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News from The Associated Press

america is grateful to president obama for NOT dismantling the anti terror tactics employed by his predecessor which allowed our agents and soldiers to GET the target

gitmo, detention, eit's, wiretapping...

they all played important roles

if eit's are wrong how can assassinations be right?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
Actually, this proves it CAN work. It doesn't prove it "does" work, as does suggests it works across the board all the time.

I think MOST reasonable people can accept that intense interrogation, mild torture, or even extreme torture can all yield legitimate results. As I've stated repeatedly, we would not put our own men in the military through things such as waterboarding and other things in preparation for being able to withstand it if captured if there wasn't a chance that they could give out legitimate information.

However, the question comes as follows:

1. Does it yield enough legitimate information on a consistant enough basis that it is worth it.

2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.

3. Are there more effective ways to retrieve said information that is less questionable and has less effect in regards to #2.

4. Does the potential for over reliance on a tactic whose information may yeild a high amount of false positives outweight the benefit of the legitimate information we can recieve.

5. Does the use of such techniques raise the likihood that our soldiers in future wars against groups that previously did not routinely use such techniques or worse will be subject to such techniques due to the expectation that the U.S. will be doing it to theirs?

These are some of the questions I think one must begin to ask themselves once they accept the fact that it IS possible to get legitimate worth while information from not just these kind of techniques but even full out universally held acts of "torture" but also accept the fact that such a process is far from a perfect form of gaining information that does have at least POTENTIAL pitfalls.
4.
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The real question is whether the victory is worth our collective loss of humanity, decency, and morality.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

megaprogman said:
The real question is whether the victory is worth our collective loss of humanity, decency, and morality.
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I don't think waterboarding three terrorists under ticking-bomb circumstances constitutes a loss of humanity, decency or morality.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

American said:
This can only be based on the premise, that standard techniques weren't used first. "Hey guys, let's start out with waterboarding first instead of a smoke and a beer." No doubt it never crossed their minds to just ask what the prisoner knew, they gagged him immediately and started the waterboarding. :roll:
Does any reasonable person really believe that the CIA ... they didn't use EIT as a last resort? Pulllleazze
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I found it
it's in section 76
The interrogations of Al-Nashiri proceeded after [] the necessary Headquarters authorization. [] psychologists/interrogators began Al-Nashiri's interrogations using EITs immediately upon his arrival.​
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

ecofarm said:
I don't think waterboarding three terrorists under ticking-bomb circumstances constitutes a loss of humanity, decency or morality.
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"ticking-bomb circumstances?"
What does that mean exactly?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

They had plans in motion that could be averted.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

danarhea said:
If the 2003 waterboarding of 911 mastermind led to the information that got bin Laden, then why didn't Bush use it?
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because it took years to track down the data

How a Detainee Became An Asset - washingtonpost.com

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=13512344&page=2

Bin Laden kill may reopen CIA interrogation debate | Reuters

WikiLeaks: Osama bin Laden killed after tip-offs from Guantanamo - Telegraph
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

ecofarm said:
I don't think waterboarding three terrorists under ticking-bomb circumstances constitutes a loss of humanity, decency or morality.
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I would disagree then. An immoral act for any reason is still an immoral act. It may be justified for the greater good, though. Such as stealing food to feed your family. You did good with the stealing, but you still stole.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

ecofarm said:
The CIA can't win, huh? Either they are infallable and the entire WMD thing is a giant conspiracy or they "fell for propaganda" and, in either case, they certainly cannot be trusted (you forgot the !).


One can't start at a conclusion, or we get a mess like that. If one is going to begin at a conclusion, don't make it so obvious - that defeats the point.
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It's a no-brainer: organizations that habitually lie, by definition, have no credibility.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
I've read your links, I've read them before and it doesn't change anything. We have solid proof that EIT works, we do not have solid proof that any other methods are better..


Tim-
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Where is this solid proof that EIT works?

All that's avaible from the pro-EIT side are comments from non-authoritative sources or from sources that are under political pressure to say it works.

Asking a government source about EIT is like asking the WH press secretary whether Obama is a good President :rolleyes:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Simon W. Moon said:
It's not that other methods need to be shown as better, it's that it needs to be shown that EITs are more effective than ITs. If the EITS are only as effective as ITs or are less effective then IT should be chosen over EITs.
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Look, I understand the principle of more from sugar than from salt, I get it. That said, even if we had no frame of referance one would logically conclude that enhancing an interrogation would yield superior results, or the very least, results that would otherwise not be forthcoming..


I don't need anyone to tell me this isn't so, and... If they do suggest that IT's are as effective then you'll have to prove it to me, and provide a relaible way to reproduce the results.


Tim-
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

megaprogman said:
I would disagree then. An immoral act for any reason is still an immoral act. It may be justified for the greater good, though. Such as stealing food to feed your family. You did good with the stealing, but you still stole.
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waterboarding_altern_120110505081029.jpg
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

solletica said:
Where is this solid proof that EIT works?

All that's avaible from the pro-EIT side are comments from non-authoritative sources or from sources that are under political pressure to say it works.

Asking a government source about EIT is like asking the WH press secretary whether Obama is a good President :rolleyes:
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Umm.. In case you missed it, EIT was responsible, DIRECTLY responsible for the eventual capture of Bin Laden. It also lead to many interceptions of various terrorists plots purported to have been planned against the USA during the past 9 years.. KSM talked, various other Muslim's talked.. They didn't do it with tea and crumpets either. Look at McCain. He talked, sqeeled like a pigeon when tortured. I know I probably would as well, however with one caveat. My family would come, as always, before my country. That is to say, I would give up information that would otherwise injure or harm fellow American's, but ONLY at the risk of losing a family member as a result. Yeah, I'm a pretty tough guy, but I am under no illusions that I would be able to withstand any amount of torture.


Tim-
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
Look, I understand the principle of more from sugar than from salt, I get it.
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That's fine that you do. But it's kind of tertiary atm.
Hicup said:
That said, even if we had no frame of referance one would logically conclude that enhancing an interrogation would yield superior results, or the very least, results that would otherwise not be forthcoming.
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I suppose in your hypothetical construction you may be correct as to what one might conclude.
Of course, with "no frame of reference" we might also logically conclude that the sun rotates around the earth.
Okay, I am about done with hypotheticals. You?
'K then back to the real world.
Hicup said:
If they do suggest that IT's are as effective then you'll have to prove it to me, and provide a relaible way to reproduce the results.
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You're welcome to your opinion.
However, EITs are the things that need to have their quality demonstrated to justify their use.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
Umm.. In case you missed it, EIT was responsible, DIRECTLY responsible for the eventual capture of Bin Laden.
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It is not "DIRECTLY" responsible.
 
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