CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Renae · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

solletica said:
This is the same CIA that said Iraq was full of WMDs, right?

Very useful one liner. Saddam admitted he played up the WMD capabilities of his country, to save face and intimidate Iran. Every western intelligence agency fell for it.

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
According to the article, the restrictions on such use were very well defined.

According to the IG report the practices were well defined. Also, according to the same source, the implementation of the practices varied from well defined policy so much that there were recommendations to the DoJ to look into some things.

MrVicchio said:
Counter, what happens when we do not use such and learn later a preventable attack was carried out... do the families of the dead get to sue because we didn't do everything we could to prevent it?

This begs the question. It assumes your conclusion as a premise.

What's at contention is the relative usefulness of the EITs. If EITs are relatively useful when compared to the ITs then there may be a point to your question. However, if EITs are not shown to be any more useful, then your point made in the question is moot.
It's not enough to show that EITs produce info--'cause that's not really in question--but it needs to be shown whether EITs are as useful as ITs. The IG report points out that EITs increase the production of intelligence reports. It also notes that quantity of reports is not the same thing as quality of information. As the CIA noted in their infamous KUBARK manual, time spent verifying false leads is counter-productive.

Given the other issues associated with EITs, EITs would have to be shown to be superior to ITs before they would be a good choice. If EITs were only "as good" as ITs then there wouldn't be much to justify using EITs over ITs.

MrVicchio said:
I'd break the knee caps of any terrorist that had possible information to save lives and sleep well at night. I'd have nightmares if I learned I didn't act and people died.

You're begging the question again. You're assuming your conclusion as a premise again.
You also have to consider the possibility that what you did may have cost people their lives because you wasted time breaking his knees instead of using a more effective method of acquiring information. OR that you cost people their lives because we had to waste time chasing down the bad leads the guy gave.

MrVicchio said:
The real question to ask is, could you sleep at night knowing that terrorist in custody knew about that bomb and we didn't get the information in time.
I couldn't.

You're begging the question again. You're assuming your conclusion as a premise again.
The point in question is that harsh techniques may not be the fastest or most reliable method available. If you would have trouble sleeping, then perhaps you should use the best methods available. And it's not at all clear that EITs are even as useful as ITs, let alone better.

ETA
Oh yeah, your link is broken

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
CNSNews.com - CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

I guess this settles the debate on whether or not waterboarding works. Saved lives, caught terrorist. Good thing really.

fixt link
CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles | CNSnews.com

What a lamo article.

Read the actual report. It doesn't say what the author of this article concludes it does.

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
Can we afford not to?

Until it can be shown that EITs are more useful than ITs, the question is, "Can we take a chance on EITs when so much is one th line?"

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
I believe in results.
8 years before 9/11 we treated Terror like a police problem, culminated in 9/11.
8 years after 9/11 we used water boarding and other methods and have not been attacked once.
Now we go back to the pre-9/11 methods? Seriously?

We haven't had a terrorist attack sine we elected Obama.
There. That's a result you can believe in.

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Truth Detector said:
Nothing is a 100% guarantee; but it continues to BEG the question, the alternative is to do what? Nothing?

Presenting a false dilemma while arguing from ignorance doesn't mean anyone has to choose a horn or can't look around for something more.

There is actually quite a body of work and a number of ways of educing information that don't involve EITs.

1) Educing Information
Interrogation: Science and Art Foundations for the Future
Intelligence Science Board National Defense Intelligence College
Washington, DC December 2006
(in particular this section)
KUBARK Counterintelligence Interrogation Review: Observations of an Interrogator – Lessons Learned and Avenues for Further Research

2) KUBARK [CIA] Counterintelligence Interrogation
July 1963

3) Anything about Hanns Scharff
"hanns scharff" - Google Search

Hanns Scharff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Zyphlin · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Holy thread necro batman

Hicup · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Interesting discussion by all.. Well most all members..

My take is simple really. I see it like this. In all of my life, in every situation where I felt I was in danger, I had NO trouble at all identifying who it was that presented me with that danger, or where that danger was coming from.

Muslim's walking down a street are not dangerous, however, Muslim's walking down a street chanting death to America, presents a level of danger to me and mine.

Conversely, a Muslim involved in nefarious business, or in a position where they ought not to be, presents a danger to me and mine than a Muslim taking his kids out for ice cream.

Philosophy - Muslim's who eat Ice Cream are ok, Muslim's who chant death to America are torture bound, and I have no trouble sleeping at night.

Tim-

ric27 · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Simon W. Moon said:
Until it can be shown that EITs are more useful than ITs, the question is, "Can we take a chance on EITs when so much is one th line?"

The problem with people (like you) claim that it doesn't produce reliable results is that they don't understand how it works and therefore think that it is used as an only method.

apdst · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

solletica said:
This is the same CIA that said Iraq was full of WMDs, right?

The Iraq intel wasn't gathered through torture. Perhaps it should have been?

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

ric27 said:
The problem with people (like you) claim that it doesn't produce reliable results is that they don't understand how it works and therefore think that it is used as an only method.

I don't think it is the only method used.
Thanks for guessing though.

The problem with people like you is that you think you know more about someone than the evidence at hand reveals. Heck, you people think you know things about people that are directly contrary to the evidence at hand.

Good luck and thanks for playing "Guess what Simon is Thinking."
If you work hard an are lucky you may receive one of several consolation prizes on your way out of the studio.

Hicup · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

ric27 said:
The problem with people (like you) claim that it doesn't produce reliable results is that they don't understand how it works and therefore think that it is used as an only method.

Problem with people like him (Thank God Obama isn't like him) is that they're dangerous to me and mine if left in charge.

I have no trouble having the rest of the world see us a nation that will adopt a toture policy to protect its citizens. In the 17, and 1800's the Red Coats wouldn't stoop so low as to break ranks when fighting, and as a result many men died needless deaths. It wasn't until the British adopted scattered formations (too late for the American Revolutionary War) that they began to close the gap around the world.

The American Civil war is another great example, the phalanx is yet another. Adopting superior techniques is paramount to a successful war machine. Does it mean that our men and women, if captured would be tortured? Well sure it does, but that has always been the case, and now we should be openly adopting the same stance. Our enemies MUST know, and be under no illusions that if we capture them, we're going to pull out their finger nails...

If our citizens are kidnapped, they should know that America will reign hell on Earth in punishing those responsible.. There is nothing to be gained, but much to be lost by not taking full advantage of every possible intelligence gathering opportunity..

Tim-

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
There is nothing to be gained, but much to be lost by not taking full advantage of every possible intelligence gathering opportunity.

the issue is that EITs may not even be all that useful when compared to other methods. If they're not more effective/efficient than other methods, then it would be a mistake to use them.

You guys keep trying to argue against a case I am not making.
I am flattered that you think about me so much. However, you guys aren't guessing correctly and I can't really return the favor.

Hicup · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Simon W. Moon said:
the issue is that EITs may not even be all that useful when compared to other methods. If they're not more effective/efficient than other methods, then it would be a mistake to use them.

You guys keep trying to argue against a case I am not making.
I am flattered that you think about me so much. However, you guys aren't guessing correctly and I can't really return the favor.

And I say... That it doesn't matter if they not the best technique at any given moment. As long as you're sure you have a bad guy in your custody, what difference would it make? Bad guys don't get tea and crumpets, or good cop bad cop routines in my interrogation room. They get the mean and nasty ...all... day... long....

I'm not trying to guess what you're saying, or thinking. You're essentially saying that becuase EIT's may not be the best method, that we shouldn't employ them. I ask why not? In the absence of information go with what has produced measurable results in the past. If you get no information so what? I don't care about the enemy, not one iota, not an ounce, they ARE the ENEMY afterall.

Tim-

Dr_Patrick · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
Holy thread necro batman

American · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Simon W. Moon said:
According to the IG report the practices were well defined. Also, according to the same source, the implementation of the practices varied from well defined policy so much that there were recommendations to the DoJ to look into some things.

This begs the question. It assumes your conclusion as a premise.

What's at contention is the relative usefulness of the EITs. If EITs are relatively useful when compared to the ITs then there may be a point to your question. However, if EITs are not shown to be any more useful, then your point made in the question is moot.
It's not enough to show that EITs produce info--'cause that's not really in question--but it needs to be shown whether EITs are as useful as ITs. The IG report points out that EITs increase the production of intelligence reports. It also notes that quantity of reports is not the same thing as quality of information. As the CIA noted in their infamous KUBARK manual, time spent verifying false leads is counter-productive.

Given the other issues associated with EITs, EITs would have to be shown to be superior to ITs before they would be a good choice. If EITs were only "as good" as ITs then there wouldn't be much to justify using EITs over ITs.

You're begging the question again. You're assuming your conclusion as a premise again.
You also have to consider the possibility that what you did may have cost people their lives because you wasted time breaking his knees instead of using a more effective method of acquiring information. OR that you cost people their lives because we had to waste time chasing down the bad leads the guy gave.

You're begging the question again. You're assuming your conclusion as a premise again.
The point in question is that harsh techniques may not be the fastest or most reliable method available. If you would have trouble sleeping, then perhaps you should use the best methods available. And it's not at all clear that EITs are even as useful as ITs, let alone better.

ETA
Oh yeah, your link is broken

This can only be based on the premise, that standard techniques weren't used first. "Hey guys, let's start out with waterboarding first instead of a smoke and a beer." No doubt it never crossed their minds to just ask what the prisoner knew, they gagged him immediately and started the waterboarding. :roll:

Does any reasonable person really believe that the CIA doesn't know how to interrogate someone, or that they didn't use EIT as a last resort? Pulllleazze!

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
And I say... That it doesn't matter if they not the best technique at any given moment.

Because lives are on the line.

Hicup said:
As long as you're sure you have a bad guy in your custody, what difference would it make? Bad guys don't get tea and crumpets, or good cop bad cop routines in my interrogation room. They get the mean and nasty ...all... day... long....

To me, imho, it's not about what the bad guys get, it's about the info that the good guys get.

Hicup said:
You're essentially saying that becuase EIT's may not be the best method, that we shouldn't employ them. I ask why not?

Because they have downsides that other methods don't have. Why use a methods that has greater costs and greater potential costs but with no assurance of being more effective when you can get the same or better results with less costly measures. [and no, I am not speaking about monetary costs.]

Hicup said:
In the absence of information go with what has produced measurable results in the past.

There are quite a number of methods that have "produced measurable results in the past." Why choose ones that have more baggage with no extra benefit?

Hicup said:
If you get no information so what? I don't care about the enemy, not one iota, not an ounce, they ARE the ENEMY afterall.
Tim-

If you don't care about acquiring information then you're not really engaged in interrogation.

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

American said:
This can only be based on the premise, that standard techniques weren't used first.

No, it's not really.

American said:
"Hey guys, let's start out with waterboarding first instead of a smoke and a beer." No doubt it never crossed their minds to just ask what the prisoner knew, they gagged him immediately and started the waterboarding. :roll:

Actually, iirc, according the IG report this was the case fo Nashiri. I may be wrong. I'll have to look through it again. I haven't run an OCR on the doc yet, so it's not quickly searchable.

American said:
Does any reasonable person really believe that the CIA doesn't know how to interrogate someone, or that they didn't use EIT as a last resort? Pulllleazze!

According to the IG report, most of the seasoned interrogators had left the service for various reasons. They had to scramble around and find people who were not subject matter experts. They instead chose people who were experts in what they saw as related fields, psychologists and SERE instructors.
I don't know if the IG counts as a reasonable person or not.

Hicup · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Simon -

Because lives are on the line.

Exactly!

To me, imho, it's not about what the bad guys get, it's about the info that the good guys get.

Yes, but until you can actually demonstrate that information gained from our techniques is poor, then you have no leg to stand on.

Because they have downsides that other methods don't have. Why use a methods that has greater costs and greater potential costs but with no assurance of being more effective when you can get the same or better results with less costly measures

What are the downsides? You keep suggesting that these other methods are superior, well, I would like very much for you to demonstrate that?

There are quite a number of methods that have "produced measurable results in the past." Why choose ones that have more baggage with no extra benefit?

Well, sure. tea and crumpets work when joe enemy is thirsty and hungry, maybe, but what about the guy that doesn't respond to said techniques?

If you don't care about acquiring information then you're not really engaged in interrogation.

No, what I mean is that the enemy isn't worth any consideration. If I can't extract information from them, so what? What does it matter that I made them feel uncomfortable in the process?

Tim-

American · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
Simon -

Exactly!

Yes, but until you can actually demonstrate that information gained from our techniques is poor, then you have no leg to stand on.

What are the downsides? You keep suggesting that these other methods are superior, well, I would like very much for you to demonstrate that?

Well, sure. tea and crumpets work when joe enemy is thirsty and hungry, maybe, but what about the guy that doesn't respond to said techniques?

No, what I mean is that the enemy isn't worth any consideration. If I can't extract information from them, so what? What does it matter that I made them feel uncomfortable in the process?

Tim-

My point exactly.

Simon W. Moon · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Hicup said:
Yes, but until you can actually demonstrate that information gained from our techniques is poor, then you have no leg to stand on.

No, it doesn't have to be shown to be poor. It merely has to be shown that it doesn't produce results that are better than other methods. Quite a big difference between "poor" and "not better than."

Hicup said:
You keep suggesting that these other methods are superior, well, I would like very much for you to demonstrate that?

It would be more accurate to paraphrase what I have been saying as, "There's not been a reason to believe that EITs are worth the trouble when compared to other methods."

Hicup said:
Well, sure. tea and crumpets work when joe enemy is thirsty and hungry, maybe, but what about the guy that doesn't respond to said techniques?

First, let me point out that this is a type of argument from ignorance. And my level knowledge, ( or lack thereof ), about the ins and outs of interrogating detainees doesn't provide any support for the idea that EITs are better than other methods. Even if I had no answer, it would not mean that EITs are better than other methods nor would it mean that they are not.
Now that that is out of the way.
Trickery is a common technique that comes up in the literature.
I have provided some links in this thread once or twice to some informative literature. I can provide them again if you like.

Hicup said:
No, what I mean is that the enemy isn't worth any consideration. If I can't extract information from them, so what? What does it matter that I made them feel uncomfortable in the process?
Tim-

Again, the concern isn't about what the detainees--it's about the info we gain from them and the resources necessary to acquire it.

American · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Since when does the left give a damn about morals? Since Bush used a controversial technique that they can use a political baseball bat, that's when. That's all this is, and nothing more. Let's not even go into the FACT that Obama continued on with the evil Bush policies. This is nothing more than political gamesmanship.

Deuce · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

American said:
Since when does the left give a damn about morals? Since Bush used a controversial technique that they can use a political baseball bat, that's when. That's all this is, and nothing more. Let's not even go into the FACT that Obama continued on with the evil Bush policies. This is nothing more than political gamesmanship.

We've given Obama a ton of flak for continuing those policies. Man you have a selective memory.

whysoserious · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

American said:
Since when does the left give a damn about morals? Since Bush used a controversial technique that they can use a political baseball bat, that's when. That's all this is, and nothing more. Let's not even go into the FACT that Obama continued on with the evil Bush policies. This is nothing more than political gamesmanship.

I think you can find quite a few threads in which I have bitched about Obama continuing the idiotic tactics Bush began.

solletica · May 6, 2011

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:
Very useful one liner. Saddam admitted he played up the WMD capabilities of his country, to save face and intimidate Iran. Every western intelligence agency fell for it.

So the CIA falls for the propoganda of dictators and considers it evidence. Thanks for letting us know--we can all trust the CIA now.

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

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