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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

akyron said:
Objectively I have no idea why you are dragging "Team Bush" into clear cut declassified memos.
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You are right. The assertions originated from the CIA, and Bush simply repeated what he got from them which is understandable. So I would like to retract and rephrase what I said to this:

The CIA who says that is the same CIA who says KSM provided intelligence that foiled a plot on the Liberty Tower in 2002, even though KSM wasn't even captured until 2003. Not saying they're lying about getting info from KSM via waterboarding, just saying they could be since they lied about his information having disrupted the LA plot.

akyron said:
Are you saying once a target has been cleared it wont ever be attacked or targeted again? If it was targeted in 2001 it was never going to be attacked again? That really does not sound accurate.
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No, I'm saying the CIA is lying when they say KSM provided intelligence that thwarted the Liberty Tower attack, because KSM wasn't even in their custody when that plot was thwarted.

akyron said:
Cried wolf?

Terrorist Attacks
(within the United States or against Americans abroad)


Didnt happen eh?
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I don't want to derail the thread into another "Bush lied, no he didn't" circle jerk, but I believe strongly that he was not completely honest on a variety of issues, not just terrorism. At any rate, I shouldn't have even mentioned Bush because it's the CIA making these assertions. My fault!
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Binary_Digit said:
You are right. The assertions originated from the CIA, and Bush simply repeated what he got from them which is understandable. So I would like to retract and rephrase what I said to this:

The CIA who says that is the same CIA who says KSM provided intelligence that foiled a plot on the Liberty Tower in 2002, even though KSM wasn't even captured until 2003. Not saying they're lying about getting info from KSM via waterboarding, just saying they could be since they lied about his information having disrupted the LA plot.


No, I'm saying the CIA is lying when they say KSM provided intelligence that thwarted the Liberty Tower attack, because KSM wasn't even in their custody when that plot was thwarted.


I don't want to derail the thread into another "Bush lied, no he didn't" circle jerk, but I believe strongly that he was not completely honest on a variety of issues, not just terrorism. At any rate, I shouldn't have even mentioned Bush because it's the CIA making these assertions. My fault!
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I think you may be right in the sense there is no such thing as a Liberty Tower in Los Angeles.
Maybe the terrorists got it and we didnt notice.

If the CIA was talking about it they were lying. My bad.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

akyron said:
I think you may be right in the sense there is no such thing as a Liberty Tower in Los Angeles.
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ROFL I didn't notice that until now! Good catch...

Bush: We believe the intended target was Liberty Tower in Los Angeles, California.

I'm pretty sure he meant the Library Tower, AKA the U.S. Bank Tower.

250px-Usbnktwr.jpg


U.S. Bank Tower - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Binary_Digit said:
ROFL I didn't notice that until now! Good catch...
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As usual the whole thing stems from the previous president being unable to speak in public. He might not have even been talking about Los Angeles.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

akyron said:
As usual the whole thing stems from the previous president being unable to speak in public. He might not have even been talking about Los Angeles.
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Oh, he specifically said the plot targetted the "tallest building on the West coast." Links to the transcript already provided.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Binary_Digit said:
he specifically said
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exactly.



He also inadvertantly called the Prime minister of Spain a goose.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:
Apparently the vast majority of intelligence agents disagree with that.
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So you are saying the vast majority of intelligence agents would disagree with the following statement:

Whereas cutting off a testicle and shoving it down his throat... Well, there is more of a chance that the simple threat of doing that might yield more results than asking nicely would.
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I take it you must have read the CIA's comprehensive study entitled Efficacy of the Threat of Partial Castration and Force Fed Testicle Interrogation Technique compared to the efficacy of the Ask Really Nicely Technique: Why offering tea yields more results than gonad dismemberment


Seriously, you got any links from these intel agents from reputable sources (i.e. not ihateneocons.com)?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

akyron said:
As usual the whole thing stems from the previous president being unable to speak in public.
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Well then Obama is Bush III, he can't speak without a teleprompter. I mean if he actually knew the subject matter, he could have ad libbed a few sentences:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdRQeIWhslU"]YouTube - President Obama vs Telepromter[/ame]

With that said, the whole issue of waterboarding is moot. Obama has outlawed the technique and the story has fallen off the face of the earth.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-partisan-politics-political-platforms/47163-great-torture-prosecution-disaster-4.html#post1058005217
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
Actually, this proves it CAN work. It doesn't prove it "does" work, as does suggests it works across the board all the time.

I think MOST reasonable people can accept that intense interrogation, mild torture, or even extreme torture can all yield legitimate results. As I've stated repeatedly, we would not put our own men in the military through things such as waterboarding and other things in preparation for being able to withstand it if captured if there wasn't a chance that they could give out legitimate information.

However, the question comes as follows:

1. Does it yield enough legitimate information on a consistant enough basis that it is worth it.

2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.

3. Are there more effective ways to retrieve said information that is less questionable and has less effect in regards to #2.

4. Does the potential for over reliance on a tactic whose information may yeild a high amount of false positives outweight the benefit of the legitimate information we can recieve.

5. Does the use of such techniques raise the likihood that our soldiers in future wars against groups that previously did not routinely use such techniques or worse will be subject to such techniques due to the expectation that the U.S. will be doing it to theirs?

These are some of the questions I think one must begin to ask themselves once they accept the fact that it IS possible to get legitimate worth while information from not just these kind of techniques but even full out universally held acts of "torture" but also accept the fact that such a process is far from a perfect form of gaining information that does have at least POTENTIAL pitfalls.
4.
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What other countries, that have engaged in military actions, have worried about their world standing at the time. Why are we the superpower? Because we can kick ass AND take names. And if those names keep our troops alive versus theirs, then I'm willing to put their troops through major discomfort. I haven't heard anyone say that anyone was maimed or killed from waterboarding. Let's ask ourselves how moral is war, and whether the morality of war matters. We have rules of war they we try to govern ourselves by, but they are really guidance because war is chaotic. Our enemy does not have any rules, except what Islam may dictate which appears to have no limits. To achieve victory, which is the entire premise of war, we must adjust to our enemy. I would only expect us to maintain the highest standard just short of risking our troops and victory, and after that we do what we have to.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

GottaHurt said:
Well then Obama is Bush III, he can't speak without a teleprompter. I mean if he actually knew the subject matter, he could have ad libbed a few sentences:
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Obama does Town Halls without a prompter all the time...even in foreign countries. When did your Beloved Bush do that?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Quote:Originally Posted by Tucker Case
You seem to misunderstand, Slippery. Unlike most people, I'm actually undecided either way (read: giving pause).

Do you have conclusive evidence to suggest that it was not waterboarding that he was referring to? If so, please present it. I would love to see it.

Slippery Slope said:
I would say that the lack of specifics is enough evidence. If you don't come right out and say what people are asking, there's probably a reason.
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There you have it folks, the New Liberal legal precedent/standard; you now only have to have a lack of specifics to impugn good men and women in the court of public opinion.

You cannot fabricate the level of willful denial it takes to even make such arguments.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

akyron said:
KSM was laughing at US "interregation" backrubs and gourmet coffee until the waterboard came out and then generated actionable intel.
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Actually, this is what the Bush lovers would like to believe. The truth is that KSM, and others, were cooperating "until" water boarding began. It was then that they started spewing all kinds of false info, sendng many countries' intel services on wild goose chases costing millions of dollars.

Read this to yourself 10, 20, 100 or however many times you need to understand its meaning:

Torture does not produce "RELIABLE" info.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Quote: Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat
Am I the only one that sees the irony in many of those that scream fascism, tyranny, and socialism with every bailout, environmental protection, or social safety-net, are also some of the biggest defenders of government sanctioned torture, denial of habeas corpus, and warrantless wiretaps?

You don't trust the government to bail out a bank, but you trust them with torture? You don't trust the government to administer say, unemployment extensions, but you trust them with selectively denying habeas corpus?

You guys that defend this crap are the very enablers of tyranny and you don't even know it.

Hatuey said:
This has to be the most overlooked post in the entire thread. QFT.
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Gee I love the empty rhetoric game:

Am I the only one that sees the irony in many of those that scream about torturing terrorists are the same ones claiming Bush lied us into war, Bush is leading us to tyranny, scream Fascism regarding the NSA program, rail about Bush spending the surplus, or claim Bush is a BIG spender and how we lost the war in Iraq and mismanaged it before the job was done are also some of the biggest defenders of BIG government spending, denial of 9-11, defend abortions, defend destroying embryonic stem cells and blaming our Government of immorality and torture?

You don't trust the government to fight a war in Iraq, but you trust them with managing the economy? You don't trust the government to interrogate terrorists, but you trust them with regulating markets?

You guys that defend this crap are the very enablers of Leftist tyranny and you don't even know it.

That stated, the real irony of Southern Democrats uninformed rants is the notion that Bush’s attempts to protect Americans from terrorists in the aftermath of 9-11 are more tyrannical than Obama’s massive takeover of every facet of our economy and massive expansion of Federal Bureaucracy which wants to dictate to us what we can buy, charge us for invisible gasses in the air, dictate to us how much we can pay executives and dictate to banks who they can lend to is NOT a form of tyranny.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

American said:
What other countries, that have engaged in military actions, have worried about their world standing at the time. Why are we the superpower? Because we can kick ass AND take names. And if those names keep our troops alive versus theirs, then I'm willing to put their troops through major discomfort. I haven't heard anyone say that anyone was maimed or killed from waterboarding. Let's ask ourselves how moral is war, and whether the morality of war matters. We have rules of war they we try to govern ourselves by, but they are really guidance because war is chaotic. Our enemy does not have any rules, except what Islam may dictate which appears to have no limits. To achieve victory, which is the entire premise of war, we must adjust to our enemy. I would only expect us to maintain the highest standard just short of risking our troops and victory, and after that we do what we have to.
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I see that many Conservatives here think that this debate is something other than Liberal partisan political posturing intended to impugn political opponents for purely partisan political purposes in the public forum by a willing media that continues to fawn over the President they helped elect.

Silly Conservatives, logic, reality and coherent rationale mean nothing to the Democrats and Liberals using this issue as a political football.

:2wave:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

ADK_Forever said:
Actually, this is what the Bush lovers would like to believe. The truth is that KSM, and others, were cooperating "until" water boarding began. It was then that they started spewing all kinds of false info, sendng many countries' intel services on wild goose chases costing millions of dollars.

Read this to yourself 10, 20, 100 or however many times you need to understand its meaning:

Torture does not produce "RELIABLE" info.
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As opposed to the Bush HATERS who have suddenly discovered morality! :rofl

Good lord, one cannot fabricate the level of desperate hypocrisy it takes to be a Liberal these days.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
Obama does Town Halls without a prompter all the time...even in foreign countries. When did your Beloved Bush do that?
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given your penchant to make stuff up as you go along. Please provide links proving this claim or we will take it for what its worth. nothing,
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
given your penchant to make stuff up as you go along. Please provide links proving this claim or we will take it for what its worth. nothing,
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Don't you ever turn on your television? I see Obama Town Halls all the time. Find your own damn links.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
noted and reported. Calling people liars without reason is considered impolite
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Time and time again throughout these threads people ask you for proof to back up your assertions and you continue to fail to provide any proof. If there are so many town hall appearances with no teleprompter then you shouldn't have trouble finding one and posting it. Your posts would carry far more weight if you were willing to provide proof of your assertions, but you continued refusal makes your posts lack any credibility. Based on this, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that you are lying until you can provide proof.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
noted and reported. Calling people liars without reason is considered impolite
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reason:


You have been caught in the past making stuff up and not backing your made up claims up.


I did not call you a liar. I said you lied again. there is a difference.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
Obama does Town Halls without a prompter all the time...even in foreign countries.
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Yea, we know he does. Here's a few for ya to chew on:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWOQA8S3i4g"]YouTube - Obama - Breathalyzer[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws&feature=related"]YouTube - Obama Claims He's Visited 57 States[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6avos-ChZfY&feature=related"]YouTube - notele[/ame]
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Once again will has been proven to be making it up as he goes along.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

WillRockwell said:
noted and reported. Calling people liars without reason is considered impolite
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Then obviously you've found yourself in the midst of some of the politist folks on the planet. :cool:
 
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