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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

ADK_Forever said:
You can stop it at ANY time!

It's TRAINING, not real life. And it's a far cry from TORTURE.
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:lol: you can? Why the hell didn't they tell me that! :lol::lol:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
read:

This is from a guy who went through the NAVY SERE school. my experience was similar.

Waterboarding: A SERE-ing Experience for Tens of Thousands of US Military Personnel - HUMAN EVENTS
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Intense stuff, but yeah it seemed all controlled. Was that guy tortured? To a degree. They don't do the whole of what we were doing, there's a difference between the training and what we're doing in reality. Differing time scales and such. Training can be torture, BTW. Just because you were trained by specialists doesn't mean that it wasn't torture. There isn't anything innate in those two things which make them mutually exclusive.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
who knows. I don't have a way back machine so I don't care.
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Well, why don't we just use are brains. We prosecuted the Japanese under war crimes for water boarding and other torture techniques. We now claim water boarding isn't torture. So what is it? Is it torture, or is it fine? I think the real answer people want is that it's torture if done to us, it's not torture if we do it to others. Like terrorism. Strap a bomb to yourself and blow up a market place, you're a terrorist. Drop even bigger bombs from the sky and decimate cities and you're not a terrorist. It seems more to me that people want to set the situation so that whatever it is that we do, we're doing the right thing. Something that seems a bit crazy to me honestly.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Obama actually has no say in the matter, him having a say is a serious misuse of power. The AG prosecutes, and it is his job that if he is aware of crime or wrong doing to look into prosecuting for it. I don't care what voters say based off of propaganda fed to them by the government and media. When government officials act inappropriately, we need to have things in place which hold those officials responsible for their actions.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Yes, over a long time span.
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We don't even do it to terrorist suspects multiple times per day, every day, over a month or two time span so why would we do it to our soldiers for training?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Obama actually has no say in the matter, him having a say is a serious misuse of power. The AG prosecutes, and it is his job that if he is aware of crime or wrong doing to look into prosecuting for it. I don't care what voters say based off of propaganda fed to them by the government and media. When government officials act inappropriately, we need to have things in place which hold those officials responsible for their actions.
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Why shouldn't we get ready for Obama to be charged with war crimes for killing Pakistani civilians with Hellfire missiles shot from drones?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Intense stuff, but yeah it seemed all controlled. Was that guy tortured? To a degree. They don't do the whole of what we were doing, there's a difference between the training and what we're doing in reality. Differing time scales and such. Training can be torture, BTW. Just because you were trained by specialists doesn't mean that it wasn't torture. There isn't anything innate in those two things which make them mutually exclusive.



Well, why don't we just use are brains. We prosecuted the Japanese under war crimes for water boarding and other torture techniques. We now claim water boarding isn't torture. So what is it? Is it torture, or is it fine? I think the real answer people want is that it's torture if done to us, it's not torture if we do it to others. Like terrorism. Strap a bomb to yourself and blow up a market place, you're a terrorist. Drop even bigger bombs from the sky and decimate cities and you're not a terrorist. It seems more to me that people want to set the situation so that whatever it is that we do, we're doing the right thing. Something that seems a bit crazy to me honestly.
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Well we also ruled that german soldiers being held in china after the war were not eligable for constituional rights. We recently changed our minds so its not as black an white as you are making it out to be either.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

dirtpoorchris said:
So if we now train them to resist even more radical training we can now torture our captives or invasion a little harder?

What if their people compared us to our radicals? Like men decapitating people on public buses for no reason at all. Or greedy men selling illegal weapons to young men in our very own country so they could 2 man storm a school.
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Huh???? :roll:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Truth Detector said:
Huh???? :roll:
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A response to this.
what doesn't make sense to ya?

Originally Posted by oldreliable67
The techniques described in the report are pretty mild when compared to the decapitation practiced by Muslim radicals.

Did you note also that the techniques described were those that our military submits to in SERE training? Did you note that the implementation guidelines for those techniques were governed by experience gained by subjecting our military to them during SERE training over quite a long period of time?
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Maybe this is the part? "So if we now train our guys to resist even more radical torture methods, we can now torture our captives of invasion a little harder? "

That's what I meant to say :)
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Well we also ruled that german soldiers being held in china after the war were not eligable for constituional rights. We recently changed our minds so its not as black an white as you are making it out to be either.
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Fair enough. Things aren't static, that's for sure. I think waterboarding is torture though, it's specifically designed to be torture. I think what you trained through is a form of torture. Not that it's bad or you shouldn't prepare or train that way. If caught by the enemy, you could be subjected to torture. So you might as well know what it is that you're going against. As for its use against terrorists, it appears to me that the attempt is to use torture as a standard device. I don't like to speak often in absolutes, maybe there could be appropriate use. But I don't want to make it standard, and I do think we should recognize what it is. The whole "not torture" thing seems to me to be propaganda to lessen our opinion of what waterboarding is so that we can more easily excuse the use of it. But I don't think we should easily excuse the use, I think we should use it extremely rarely if at all and only under extreme conditions. Recognize and accept what it is though, because it's important in the regulation of it.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Fair enough. Things aren't static, that's for sure. I think waterboarding is torture though, it's specifically designed to be torture. I think what you trained through is a form of torture. Not that it's bad or you shouldn't prepare or train that way. If caught by the enemy, you could be subjected to torture. So you might as well know what it is that you're going against. As for its use against terrorists, it appears to me that the attempt is to use torture as a standard device. I don't like to speak often in absolutes, maybe there could be appropriate use. But I don't want to make it standard, and I do think we should recognize what it is. The whole "not torture" thing seems to me to be propaganda to lessen our opinion of what waterboarding is so that we can more easily excuse the use of it. But I don't think we should easily excuse the use, I think we should use it extremely rarely if at all and only under extreme conditions. Recognize and accept what it is though, because it's important in the regulation of it.
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If only we had a American Idol modeled waterboard quarries for every suspect. :)
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
We don't even do it to terrorist suspects multiple times per day, every day, over a month or two time span so why would we do it to our soldiers for training?
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Was there not news of someone who was waterboarded over 180 times over the span of a few months?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

dirtpoorchris said:
A response to this.
what doesn't make sense to ya?




Maybe this is the part? "So if we now train our guys to resist even more radical torture methods, we can now torture our captives of invasion a little harder? "

That's what I meant to say :)
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If this is what you meant to say, it still makes little sense. I don't think that was the argument made by Old Reliable either; he was illustrating that waterboarding hardly meets the definition of torture if we subject our own troops to the method so they can experience.

Fascinating how you willingly avoid those assertions.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:
Was there not news of someone who was waterboarded over 180 times over the span of a few months?
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Come on Ikari, for someone so mistrustful of the government and the media and such I figured you wouldn't start making accusations of things without actual facts.

The original reports by the media were misleading. Whether it was intentional or just sloppy ****ty reporting is debatable. The original reports gave the impression exactly as you presented it...numerous long sessions of waterboarding every time over a few months.

In reality, each number in the count is a "pour" for 10 to 40 seconds. Essentially, 180 waterboards in a month assuming that each one was at the maximum of 40 seconds would be a shade over 2 hours in length in a single months time and that was only known to be done to one guy which was unquestionably a terrorist. Essentially, six 20 minute sessions in a months time or if you wanted to do it every day 4 minutes a day. Again, not stating its "right" or not, but its a COMPLETELY different picture than the media tried to paint at first.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
Come on Ikari, for someone so mistrustful of the government and the media and such I figured you wouldn't start making accusations of things without actual facts.

The original reports by the media were misleading. Whether it was intentional or just sloppy ****ty reporting is debatable. The original reports gave the impression exactly as you presented it...numerous long sessions of waterboarding every time over a few months.

In reality, each number in the count is a "pour" for 10 to 40 seconds. Essentially, 180 waterboards in a month assuming that each one was at the maximum of 40 seconds would be a shade over 2 hours in length in a single months time and that was only known to be done to one guy which was unquestionably a terrorist. Essentially, six 20 minute sessions in a months time or if you wanted to do it every day 4 minutes a day. Again, not stating its "right" or not, but its a COMPLETELY different picture than the media tried to paint at first.
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Ok, that sounds reasonable. Still...I'd rather avoid it. I don't know if I would 100% trust their insistence that it was done from 10-40 seconds.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Truth Detector said:
If this is what you meant to say, it still makes little sense. I don't think that was the argument made by Old Reliable either; he was illustrating that waterboarding hardly meets the definition of torture if we subject our own troops to the method so they can experience.

Fascinating how you willingly avoid those assertions.
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Ok.. when you learn Karate.. Do you beat the **** out of your partner? Or do you train with him? Now when you meet Mr. Mugger do you train with him or use the full extent of your power?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

zimmer said:
Torture is but one tool; we weren't pressed for time, and we had our guy in there befriending Saddam.
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Oh I see, your standard is that we have to be pressed for time. But isn't that a big risk? I mean unless you think torture results in 100% accurate intel, then at a moment when you are pressed for time you will probably get bad information which you have to waste precious time finding out it was bad info. Now, if you'd like to claim that torture always or almost always results in accurate info then why waste time on other means of interrogation? Just go right for what works best? So again, with something so important I ask agian, why didn't we torture Saddam?
Why don't we torture anyone who needs to be interrogated, including your everyday criminal?

This isn't always possible.
Sometime torture may be necessary... just like war... which is the ultimate torture... No?
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No, I don't think war is the ultimate torture.
Why isn't it always possible?
It's never necessary to start a war.

Bombings at odd and all hours, overwhelming force, serious injury, blasting noise to deprive the enemy of sleep... and as this is torturous... Our Dear Capitulator should simply BAN war.
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That's kind of a childish but I'll play along. If it were possible then yes, we should ban war.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

celticlord said:
Given that by your own admission you have not experienced waterboarding, this statement is beyond your competence to make.
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I do however know people who have taken SERE training. :2wave:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
Well because obviously if a guy you think is a prick and you disagree with is agreeing to do something to actually help people that is "torture" its going to be an entertaining thing worthy of multiple repeat viewing by you.

However, if its done to someone that is 100% known to have been involved with terrorism and is done in hopes of getting information that can be used to stop further terrorism, it is a horrible crime against humanity that needs to have dozens of people executed or put in prison for life for.

Come on Rev, how could you not know that. :roll: ;)
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Wow, you really advance this as an argument? One guy agrees to be waterboarded for entertainment and of course to help his waxing ratings and the other is a prisoner. :doh
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Slippery Slope said:
Wow, you really advance this as an argument? One guy agrees to be waterboarded for entertainment and of course to help his waxing ratings and the other is a prisoner. :doh
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Wow, you're really saying its going to be entertaining enough to watch someone go through what you call torture that you don't just want to watch it ONCE, but you want to DVR it so you can watch that person be tortured again and again and again?

Sorry, I would assume that someone with such a distaste for torture wouldn't find it entertaining enough to watch it carried out to someone so much that they want to RECORD it for prosperity of the laughter.

For me personally, for the things I personally actually consider torture, I can tell you without a doubt if the most obnoxious people on TV....say Rosie Odonnel....decided she'd get shoots shoved under her finger nails or would allow someone to slowly flay the skin from her I wouldn't want to watch it, nor record it, nor even find it entertaining no matter what the reason is. See, maybe I'm just weird like this, but to me things that are torture are not the kind of thing I would want to watch occur to someone no matter what the reason.

But....obviously for you....its prime time sweeps television worthy of years of viewing pleasure.

To each their own.

-edit- My apologizes...somehow I managed to mix up ADK and SS. The above post was with ADK in mind, since he was the one that made the comment. Mix up on my part. -edit-
 
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Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
I have been through SERE and can tell you, you are off.
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Actually you can tell me that. However, it works like this, I went through the gas chamber and the guy next to me couldn't take it while I had little problem. Maybe, as a person with a weak constitution you just had a harder time.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
Wow, you're really saying its going to be entertaining enough to watch someone go through what you call torture that you don't just want to watch it ONCE, but you want to DVR it so you can watch that person be tortured again and again and again?

Sorry, I would assume that someone with such a distaste for torture wouldn't find it entertaining enough to watch it carried out to someone so much that they want to RECORD it for prosperity of the laughter.

For me personally, for the things I personally actually consider torture, I can tell you without a doubt if the most obnoxious people on TV....say Rosie Odonnel....decided she'd get shoots shoved under her finger nails or would allow someone to slowly flay the skin from her I wouldn't want to watch it, nor record it, nor even find it entertaining no matter what the reason is. See, maybe I'm just weird like this, but to me things that are torture are not the kind of thing I would want to watch occur to someone no matter what the reason.

But....obviously for you....its prime time sweeps television worthy of years of viewing pleasure.

To each their own.
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Aww... look at you, are you going to cry now or after I remind you that I didn't say anything about recording it to watch over and over... Why should I care if a guy wants to wants to be tortured to improve his ratings? If he wants to shoot himself in the head with a .45 I wouldn't care either... he's a free citizen. :gunner:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:
Wow, you're really saying its going to be entertaining enough to watch someone go through what you call torture that you don't just want to watch it ONCE, but you want to DVR it so you can watch that person be tortured again and again and again?
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Absolutely!!! People like him, in trying to minimize the magnitude of just what BushCo did, are all over the media saying how this isn't torture because it doesn't cripple you, because it doesn't cause "pain". It's not illegal throughout the world for nothing.

Well, once that coward sees just what it does feel like I'll be very interested to see how he reacts. Watch his face, how he handles it. What he says. And they should continue a second or two after he signals he's had enough.

Undergoing it during training may be a different situation but, being waterboarded is a very real experience. It doesn't matter how sophisticated you may or may not be. It's a basic human thing. Like when you think you're drowning and your mother swims out to save you. You would climb up on top of her just to get that breath of air. Human survival instinct kicks in. We all need air. Unless trained, if we're prevented from getting it we will do anything to get it. We will say anything to get it.
 
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