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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Because we are better.

Yes, I can now imagine a meeting of despots, tyrants, dictators and terrorists; they are going to declare the USA off limits as a target because we took some warped perceived moral "high" ground and declared that we are better than they are.

Folks, at what point did our collective brains begin to atrophy into rabid denial?

Here's a very simple example; when you were in school and confronted with a bully, what did it take to stop it? Was it hiding from the bully? Was it to not fight back meeting force with force because it would take sacrifice and some around you would no longer respect your peaceful attentions? OR, perhaps it was confronting the bully and finding out he was a coward and when confronted, backed down or then left you alone?

This doesn't take rocket science; just some simple common sense. Can anyone name a single historic event where accommodation, moral arguments or appeasement worked on a despot? The answer is simple; NO.

:roll:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Because we're not animals. We know and can do better, and thus we should. There's a lot of value in the higher moral ground. I'd rather not jump off.

Suggesting that the previous administration acted like animals is beyond mere willful ignorance, it is patently offensive.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Yes, I can now imagine a meeting of despots, tyrants, dictators and terrorists; they are going to declare the USA off limits as a target because we took some warped perceived moral "high" ground and declared that we are better than they are.

Folks, at what point did our collective brains begin to atrophy into rabid denial?


Here's a very simple example; when you were in school and confronted with a bully, what did it take to stop it? Was it hiding from the bully? Was it to not fight back meeting force with force because it would take sacrifice and some around you would no longer respect your peaceful attentions? OR, perhaps it was confronting the bully and finding out he was a coward and when confronted, backed down or then left you alone?

This doesn't take rocket science; just some simple common sense. Can anyone name a single historic event where accommodation, moral arguments or appeasement worked on a despot? The answer is simple; NO.

:roll:

In your case.............
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

This type of thinking ignores a couple of key unavoidable facts. First off we're becoming more and more global. Our economies are interlinked quite heavily and our dependence for resources is all quite interlinked. As we become more global the Earth essentially shrinks in so far as ignoring those folks over there goes.

Second, we are the world's superpower.

I understand that many many folks think we should stop involving ourselves in issues around the world, militarily.

However my response to that would be if we ignore things and wait till it is impossible to ignore them any longer before taking action then we're probably setting our men and women in the military up to fight harder more difficult battles later for the comfort of sticking our heads in the sand in the here and now. Allowing things to fester because they are not our immediate direct problem essentially allows them to grow so that when we are called on -and ultimately we will be- we face just that much bigger of a problem.

It's not that I don't understand where you're coming from. You make good points. But in terms specifically of terrorism I think that we may find ourselves in a vicious cycle and that cycle is hard to break. Israel and Palestine are entrenched in such a cycle of hate and violence. I just think that America can exercise a lot more logic and intellect to strive for solution. I don't think we can go totally isolationist, but I do think we need to consider our actions.

I don't think we should concern ourselves with occupational wars, if people attack our sovereignty we can go in and break them. There is nothing most countries can do against the might of the US military. I think we have to be very careful in what we do and how we do it because actions have consequences. Torture, allowing it large scale is a bad idea and I think some people argue that point. War on terror...occupational wars in hostile countries isn't going to help us so much. We live in a global world, and we have many interconnections with other countries. But that's also a very good thing. We have many allies, and many others who just wouldn't do anything because harming us harms them. Trade and diplomacy have traditionally gone further than war. That's not to say that these things are completely avoidable, but we should do our best to avoid it if possible. That's my take on the issue anyway.

There is a proper solution, and I think we can get to it if we just employ a bit of logic and intellect.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Suggesting that the previous administration acted like animals is beyond mere willful ignorance, it is patently offensive.

Hahah, aww man. Thanks for proving me right. Awesome.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

You don't have to be Christian to learn from Jesus.

What a fascinating argument coming from someone who doesn't believe in Christianity, thinks abortion on demand is a right and believes that a Government acting to protect it's citizens are indistinguishable from mere animals.

You can't make this level of BS up folks; I need hip waders here!
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

What a fascinating argument coming from someone who doesn't believe in Christianity, thinks abortion on demand is a right and believes that a Government acting to protect it's citizens are indistinguishable from mere animals.

You can't make this level of BS up folks; I need hip waders here!

Wow...hyperbole much? Thanks for showing yourself a liar.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

And you don't seem to get that international law applies to everyone not just U.S. citizens. You also don't seem to get that constitutional protections apply to anyone on U.S. soil, not just U.S. citizens.

More fascinating denial; do tell me what terrorist internees held at Gitmo were captured on US soil and then held on US soil?


You also don't seem to get that if you allow the government to torture and deny habeas corpus to anyone it deems as "enemies of the state", that it can do that to anyone, citizen or not, so long as they are deemed "enemies of the state".

This is patently false with not one factual instance to support it.

Emotional fabricated arguments not based in facts or historic precedent doesn’t have a place in any honest intellectual debate.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I said US State soil, you may want to try reading. It's English, it's not tough; you should have learned it already. Your argument is for my safety. Well I'm not in other parts of the world. I live in the United States. My safety is here, thus attacks on US embassies in war zones and hostile countries does nothing towards my safety. Do you even remember your argument against me? You're keeping me safe. US State soil has had 5 terrorist attacks since the 20's. Hardly an epidemic or something I need to worry about.

So how are you keeping me safe now?

So you believe that ignoring attacks on US interests and citizens is NONE of our Governments business and will make us safer and not lead to attacks here in the US? :roll:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

So you believe that ignoring attacks on US interests and citizens is NONE of our Governments business and will make us safer and not lead to attacks here in the US? :roll:

I don't think Iraq satisfied any of those conditions sufficiently enough to warrant occupation.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

People forget that once on the soil of a US Embassy, you are ON US Soil.

outside the walls, no, inside, yes.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I don't believe in torture techniques generally but if he was stupid enough to say such a thing - what did he expect other than to be repeatedly waterboarded until he talked in that climate and with the awful events of 9/11 still raw in the US mind.

I'm still not yet going to support waterboarding in general but thinking in terms of having a possible terrorist saying such a thing to his captors certainly makes the argument against getting that information out of him at any cost harder to justify.

I don't believe anyone, me included, is supporting waterboarding in general. That has NEVER been the argument except from those desperately trying to avoid reality and the facts.

The issue has always been that there are times when the safety of our citizens is imperiled and that there may be specific instances where these "enhanced" interrogation techniques will save lives and bring terrorist thugs to justice.

The FACTS suggest that these "enhanced" techniques were used ONLY after careful deliberation and when all others were thought to not be getting results and only used on very few individuals who knowingly had information that could put other citizens at risk.

What we are seeing from Liberals and Democrats is a willful fabrication of the facts, reality in what appears to be for purely partisan political purposes intended to impugn good men and women of the previous administration. I find these specious attempts beyond contempt and doing NOTHING to make this nation safer.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

This type of thinking ignores a couple of key unavoidable facts. First off we're becoming more and more global. Our economies are interlinked quite heavily and our dependence for resources is all quite interlinked. As we become more global the Earth essentially shrinks in so far as ignoring those folks over there goes.

Second, we are the world's superpower.

I understand that many many folks think we should stop involving ourselves in issues around the world, militarily.

However my response to that would be if we ignore things and wait till it is impossible to ignore them any longer before taking action then we're probably setting our men and women in the military up to fight harder more difficult battles later for the comfort of sticking our heads in the sand in the here and now. Allowing things to fester because they are not our immediate direct problem essentially allows them to grow so that when we are called on -and ultimately we will be- we face just that much bigger of a problem.

The historic facts/record overwhelmingly supports the above assertions.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

People forget that once on the soil of a US Embassy, you are ON US Soil.

outside the walls, no, inside, yes.

That's why people tend to say US State soil or something similar to differentiate and make clear they are talking of the 50 States. My safety would be concerned with attacks there, not attacks on embassies in war zones or hostile countries.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

-Translation:
"Blah blah blah, I'm a partisan hack"

I get it "Truth" Detector, you can't make logical arguments based in reality. It has to be emotional tripe based off of political propaganda.

You're keeping me safe...yeah right. How? By enacting law which goes against my liberty? By wasting a near trillion of my money to fight occupational wars? By sacrificing over 4,000 American lives for your delusions of grandure? That's keeping me safe?

Terrorists were always an outside threat, always will be. They had little to no impact on my safety. FACT, I am more at risk from drunk drivers than I am from terrorists. FACT, the deadliest of all terrorist attacks on US State soil did not kill as many people as cars do in a year. But you want to make believe that taking out Saddam somehow made me safer? It's pathetic head in sand perception and nothing less. Maybe you have to think this way. Maybe you have to believe that what you're doing is for the better cause. Because to acknowledge how the military has been misused and mishandled in the Iraq war means that the government you defend so much thought nothing of the sacrifice, resolve, and commitment of its soldiers. And so it must be me, the individual out side of the government, who is wrong and not the government itself. Because the government will always honor your commitment. Maybe that's what goes through your head, I don't know for sure. What I do know for sure is that Iraq had 0 to do with my safety. It was certainly used as an excuse by the government to usurp my liberty, but my safety has not been increased.

What irony reading the bolded part of your comments based on the lack of reality, facts and history you exhibit with every post.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

What irony reading the bolded part of your comments based on the lack of reality, facts and history you exhibit with every post.

Still proving me right, "Truth" Detector. Good job.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I don't think Iraq satisfied any of those conditions sufficiently enough to warrant occupation.

I don't recall a bi-partisan Congress, or President, or Secretary of Defense who asked YOU what you thought constitutes justification to warrant occupation. When did this happen?

I do recall the FACTS and they do not support your emotional perceptions of reality and fabricated issues.

Perhaps you should read the UN resolutions, the historic record of Saddam’s continual violation of agreements he signed to stay in power and our legal right to enforce the UN resolutions Saddam defied for more than a decade.

Come back when you are more informed; emotional hyperbole does not warrant further outbursts about your perceptions of Jesus and what constitutes legal justifications for war.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

That's why people tend to say US State soil or something similar to differentiate and make clear they are talking of the 50 States. My safety would be concerned with attacks there, not attacks on embassies in war zones or hostile countries.

So those American's working for us in overseas locations don't count for you. They can die in terrorist attacks, that's their job then is it?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I do recall the FACTS and they do not support your emotional perceptions of reality and fabricated issues.

So where are those Iraqi WMD's?:lol:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

So those American's working for us in overseas locations don't count for you. They can die in terrorist attacks, that's their job then is it?

Do you want to include them in your stats? You claim no terrorist attack since 2001, but that's only if we look at solely US State soil attacks. We can include the other stuff too. It doesn't affect my argument as I'm still no more or less safer than I was before. But it throws out your argument of "the policies work".
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I don't recall a bi-partisan Congress, or President, or Secretary of Defense who asked YOU what you thought constitutes justification to warrant occupation. When did this happen?

I do recall the FACTS and they do not support your emotional perceptions of reality and fabricated issues.

Perhaps you should read the UN resolutions, the historic record of Saddam’s continual violation of agreements he signed to stay in power and our legal right to enforce the UN resolutions Saddam defied for more than a decade.

Come back when you are more informed; emotional hyperbole does not warrant further outbursts about your perceptions of Jesus and what constitutes legal justifications for war.

Still with the emotional tripe huh. Maybe you can tell me how Iraq was a threat factually to the United States. No? You can't? You'll just make another emotionalized and insulting statement after this? K.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Still with the emotional tripe huh. Maybe you can tell me how Iraq was a threat factually to the United States. No? You can't? You'll just make another emotionalized and insulting statement after this? K.

Iraq was a threat because of Saddam's hollow saber rattling;)
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Attacks on American Soil from after the 1993 WTC to September 10th 2001? 0.

I guess it'd have been accurate then to say on September 10th, 2001 unquestioningly that ALL of Clinton's policies worked perfectly.

That's my issue. THIS IS NOT PROOF.

CORRELATION DOES NOT PROVE CAUSATIOn.

Just because we have not been attacked in our borders yet DOES NOT MEAN unquestionably Bush's policies are the reason for it. That doesn't PROVE anything. Its idiotic, illogical, and politically lazy to try and claim that THAT is the proof for your statement because on September 10th 2001 you could say the EXACT SAME THING about the Policies you're LAMBASTING.



Actually, a U.S Embassy is considered sovereign U.S territory. Therefore, the attacks on our embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya were in fact on U.S soil.

Clinton's policies worked wonders. His response to the attacks on 2 of our embassies in the same day, 1 in which had the truck been able to park under the embassy as planned would've more than likely have killed more people than September 11th.

The US attacked Sudan and Afghanistan with cruise missiles as a response to the attacks on the embassies. The U.S attacked an alleged chemical weapons producing plant in Sudan with 13 cruise missile which resulted in the death of the night watchmen. This attack has come under a great deal of criticism because there has been no corroborating evidence to support the attack. The Afghanistan attack came in the form of over 70 cruise missile at three separate terrorist camps. This attack killed an estimated 24 people but failed to get Osama Bin Laden.

Well done Bill, that response sure didn't embolden Al-Qaeda, or lead to the attack on the U.S.S Cole. Not to mention the fact that Clinton had Bin Laden on a plane but passed over the chance to shoot him down. If you ask me, Clinton definitely has American blood on his hands.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

So those American's working for us in overseas locations don't count for you. They can die in terrorist attacks, that's their job then is it?

Well, I am curious why Americans purposely targeted for the fact that they are Americans should not count in Ikari's and others minds as well.

But alas, this same fantastical mental state suggests that we will all be safer now that we are attempting to impugn members of the Bush Administration for their efforts to keep us safe, public statements that we will never engage in "nation" building again, public statements that we will never use any "enhanced" interrogation methods to extract information because ANY form of it is inhumane and public statements that we will close Gitmo and try terrorists as common criminals with Constitutional rights.

Our enemies have to be either laughing at us, or smiling and nodding in quiet agreement with the current naive ignorance that infests our Government these days. A Government that while making life safer for terrorists the world over, also buries us in debt that will prevent us from acting in any event for at least the next ten years!

You cannot fabricate the level of stupidity these Democrats and this President wallow in to act the way they are acting; and the “unbiased” media continues to fawn over them.
 
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