CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

winston53660 said:

Torture is the domain of despots, terrorists, gangsters, loansharks, not civilized people.

Click to expand...

Prove it. So far all you have are opinions.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

winston53660 said:

Torture is the domain of despots, terrorists, gangsters, loansharks, not civilized people.

Click to expand...

If waterboarding is torture due to the mental anguish and possible post traumatic stress syndrome then capturing and imprisoning folks would also be torture wouldn't it? If not, why?

For me - torture would be causing actual bodily harm and damage in an attempt to manipulate and intimidate somebody.

If for others torture is anything that causes duress, anguish, and leaves lasting bad memories and possibly post traumatic stress then not only does sleep deprivation, waterboarding, and cold cell count but you would also have to view any type of imprisonment as torture. If you don't feel that way please explain why so I can understand.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

celticlord said:

1. I never claimed to be Christian.

Click to expand...

You don't have to be Christian to learn from Jesus.

celticlord said:

2. Your position does not take into account the sanctity of all life, merely that of the terrorist.

Click to expand...

In fact, it accounts for the whole. American and otherwise. It does also recognize terrorists as human, which is not the standard. As such, a different set of moral arguments comes into the picture.

celticlord said:

3. You have not established that your view is "reality" as opposed to the terrorist's. What if yours is not the reality?

Click to expand...

The reality of the situation is this. The world will never run out of terrorists. If you want to wage a "war on terror" or whatever other BS, you're going for perpetual war. That includes a lot more dead people, our side and theirs. We'll only have more "we need to torture" arguments because we won't leave the state of war. The reality of the situation is that you either forgive and start dealing with this on individual basis with individual attacks, or we turn into Israel and Palestine. That's the fact. You need to understand that the cycle of violence we're starting doesn't break easily, and to break one side has to be the adult. We are more than capable of taking that role. I suggest we do.

celticlord said:

4. You are wrong about hatred and about forgiveness. Forgiveness is generally the easier task.

Click to expand...

I am not wrong. True forgiveness is one of the hardest things out there. To accept the actions taken against you, and purge the hate from your heart. You're confusing forgiveness with non-action. Those two are not the same. It take a lot more resolve, a lot more power, a higher moral ground to forgive your enemy.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

celticlord said:

Prove it. So far all you have are opinions.

Click to expand...

"If you stare into the Abyss long enough the Abyss stares back at you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

You become the same thing you are supposedly fighting IMHO.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:

You don't have to be Christian to learn from Jesus.

Click to expand...

I don't think Jesus has a place in this conversation. But let's assume he does. The story goes he was destined to be nailed to a cross and die hanging in the sun. Now that is torture! And that was planned by God. The ultimate sacrifice to forgive us for our sins. Something that had to happen according to God. Something that was heinous yet somehow justified, predestined, and designed as the only act to wipe the slate clean for humanity.

I am not wrong. True forgiveness is one of the hardest things out there. To accept the actions taken against you, and purge the hate from your heart. You're confusing forgiveness with non-action. Those two are not the same. It take a lot more resolve, a lot more power, a higher moral ground to forgive your enemy.

Click to expand...

God could have just forgave humanity without a need for his only begotten son to be tortured but he didn't. So not sure I get the Jesus example.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:

You don't have to be Christian to learn from Jesus.

Click to expand...

No, but outside of Christianity his moral authority is not a given.

Ikari said:

In fact, it accounts for the whole. American and otherwise. It does also recognize terrorists as human, which is not the standard. As such, a different set of moral arguments comes into the picture.

Click to expand...

Wonderful rhetoric, but doesn't say anything. Torture arguments don't necessarily deny the humanity of terrorists. Some do, but it by no means a prerequisite.

Ikari said:

The reality of the situation is this. The world will never run out of terrorists. If you want to wage a "war on terror" or whatever other BS, you're going for perpetual war. That includes a lot more dead people, our side and theirs. We'll only have more "we need to torture" arguments because we won't leave the state of war. The reality of the situation is that you either forgive and start dealing with this on individual basis with individual attacks, or we turn into Israel and Palestine. That's the fact. You need to understand that the cycle of violence we're starting doesn't break easily, and to break one side has to be the adult. We are more than capable of taking that role. I suggest we do.

Click to expand...

If we are never going to run out of terrorists, then we already have "perpetual war." Your argument thus devolves to "we just need to accept terrorism."

And that's the fact.

Ikari said:

I am not wrong. True forgiveness is one of the hardest things out there. To accept the actions taken against you, and purge the hate from your heart. You're confusing forgiveness with non-action. Those two are not the same. It take a lot more resolve, a lot more power, a higher moral ground to forgive your enemy.

Click to expand...

Again, more high-flying rhetoric without a shred of foundation to support it.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

SouthernDemocrat said:

No, what protects you from wrongful imprisonment and torture right now is that torture is illegal for everyone, and you have the right to challenge your accusers in the courts. You have legal rights, and the government is not above the law.

However, by telling the government that they torture anyone they label as a terrorist suspect, you are placing the government outside of the law and all they have to do is label someone a terrorist suspect, and those protections no longer apply.

Click to expand...

Still having trouble distinguishing between US citizens in our country and picking up terrorist insurgents, called enemies of the state, on foreign soil I see.

How does one have a coherent argument with people who so willfully ignore FACTS and REALITY and then fabricate their own imaginary facts?

Not ONE US Citizen has been picked up, called a terrorist and had enhanced interrogation methods applied to them; you think it is a responsible debate tactic to fabricate imaginary injustices?

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

winston53660 said:

"If you stare into the Abyss long enough the Abyss stares back at you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

You become the same thing you are supposedly fighting IMHO.

Click to expand...

Except that we don't cause malicious pain on others for no reason other then "we have you, you're the enemy".

You guys quoting this stuff always ignore that part...

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

I bring this up all the time, I was waterboarded in SERE school, and I am mentally ok. :thumbs:

Click to expand...

Some here may question this statement. :mrgreen:

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

MrVicchio said:

Except that we don't cause malicious pain on others for no reason other then "we have you, you're the enemy".
..

Click to expand...

yeah we are perfect:roll:

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:

I am not being kept safe by an occupational war in Iraq, that has zero to do with me. Terrorism was never a huge threat to me, it doesn't impact my life that much. What it did was to allow for war that should never have happened. It allowed for expansion of the government beyond that which it should have done. It's got little partisan hacks running around shouting if you're not with us, you're against us and other nonsensical ignorant statements. Don't sit there and try to tell me that I'm sacrificing soldiers for my safety. My rights are not being defended in Iraq, my liberty is not at stake. The terrorists had no way of impacting those things, the government is the biggest threat in those regards. And they have used this little propaganda war to raise the shadow of horribly large, intrusive government into our lives. Those soldiers in Iraq should not be there. They should never have been called on to sacrifice themselves for this cause, for the cause has nothing to do with America's sovereignty or the "safety" of the People. I don't take that sacrifice for granted, I want to respect that resolve. I want to employ the military only when my freedom and liberty is at stake. My countrymen should sacrifice themselves for nothing less. Be given ever advantage in a fight, be reserved for only when true threats arise. Afghanistan fine, I could buy into that one at the beginning...everything else has been nothing short of cluster****. Perpetrated and proliferated by the likes who will claim my "safety".

I'm well aware of my safety, and for the most part I can take care of myself. Terrorism isn't the threat you make it out to be. It's a constant, we'll never run out of terrorists. You have to be on guard and there are things which can be done to help curtail it. It will never be zero. We will eventually be attacked again, and we'll deal with it when that time comes. But don't sit there and try to pass off what our military men and women go through as some sacrifice for me or my safety. Talk about not respecting the commitment. Nothing I have is at stake in Iraq, never was. What is at stake is ever decreasing liberty caused by ever expansive and intrusive government. All at the hands of big government types who want nothing more than power to the federal government. The worst of which claim some form of conservatism as political ideology. Liars the whole lot.

Emotionalized tripe and nothing more. The only thing more fantastical than your verbal diarrhea here is the notion that Iraq had anything to do with the safety, freedom, or liberty of America. That's nothing more than propaganda, I hope myself never so dumb as to buy into it.

Click to expand...

What irony reading the above prefaced by this garbage:

Ikari said:

Is that what you believe now? So how much are tickets to Truth Detector land? A magical, mystical place of lies and spins. Tea cups can be your main ride...spin, spin, spin.

Click to expand...

One cannot debate someone who so willfully wallows in denial.

The notion that soldiers dying in ANY nation have nothing to do with your security requires a willful ignorance of REALITY I just cannot fathom.

But along with the willful denial of the emotional blather from the anti-war crowd, we also have the willful suspension of disbelief that the actions of Liberal Democrats impugning the previous administration for perceived acts of torture and the specious false claim that we should never have been in Iraq will now make us all safer.

The terrorists are laughing at us now; we have now declared we will do nothing to interrogate suspects other then coddle them; we will never invade another country and if we catch a terrorist, we will now provide them with habeas corpus rights previously reserved for US citizens.

The fantasy is certainly all yours Ikari and those who make similar arguments.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Truth Detector said:

Still having trouble distinguishing between US citizens in our country and picking up terrorist insurgents, called enemies of the state, on foreign soil I see.

How does one have a coherent argument with people who so willfully ignore FACTS and REALITY and then fabricate their own imaginary facts?

Not ONE US Citizen has been picked up, called a terrorist and had enhanced interrogation methods applied to them; you think it is a responsible debate tactic to fabricate imaginary injustices?

Click to expand...

And you don't seem to get that international law applies to everyone not just U.S. citizens. You also don't seem to get that constitutional protections apply to anyone on U.S. soil, not just U.S. citizens. You also don't seem to get that if you allow the government to torture and deny habeas corpus to anyone it deems as "enemies of the state", that it can do that to anyone, citizen or not, so long as they are deemed "enemies of the state".

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:

Let me see:

1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.


1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.


1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)


2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

So that's 5 terrorist attacks on US State soil since the 1920's.

Click to expand...

You may want to expand your horizons and stop the willful denial:

Terrorist Attacks
(within the United States or against Americans abroad)

1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.

1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.

Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.

Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.

June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.

Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.

Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.

April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988 Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993 Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)

Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996 June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998 Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000 Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001 Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002 June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003 May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004 May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.

June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.

Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

2005 Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

2006 Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.

2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.

Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.

Terrorist Attacks — Infoplease.com

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

SouthernDemocrat said:

And you don't seem to get that international law applies to everyone not just U.S. citizens. You also don't seem to get that constitutional protections apply to anyone on U.S. soil, not just U.S. citizens. You also don't seem to get that if you allow the government to torture and deny habeas corpus to anyone it deems as "enemies of the state", that it can do that to anyone, citizen or not, so long as they are deemed "enemies of the state".

Click to expand...

It does? I'm asking seriously.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

celticlord said:

No, but outside of Christianity his moral authority is not a given.

Click to expand...

No, but the stories are still good, and the underlying message is still something I think is worth while.

celticlord said:

Wonderful rhetoric, but doesn't say anything. Torture arguments don't necessarily deny the humanity of terrorists. Some do, but it by no means a prerequisite.

Click to expand...

Alright, fair enough. I do find the outright engagement in torture to be more of an animalistic act. I believe we should do our best to avoid it, and that many of the scenarios people come up with to defend it are low probability events. The widespread use of torture, which I guess I've seen more arguments for and maybe my arguments are better aligned towards that, comes with many pitfalls and perils. I think it's best not to engage in it. Torture in general is rather barbaric and many times pointless, so I think it's best to acknowledge the humanity of others and have some empathy; I find greater value in that than in "eye for an eye" sort of stuff.

celticlord said:

If we are never going to run out of terrorists, then we already have "perpetual war." Your argument thus devolves to "we just need to accept terrorism."

And that's the fact.

Click to expand...

My argument in fact does base itself in "we just need to accept terrorism". Not quite maybe in the way you are thinking. I'm not saying we can't respond when attacked. Like 9/11, I think Afghanistan was appropriate. I think anything outside of Afghanistan was not appropriate. But we do have to understand that terrorists are always going to be present and instead of making a huge propaganda war against it, it's probably best to deal with these things on an individual basis. In the end, it will happen. We will be attacked by terrorists again in the future at some point, it's inevitable. But I don't think we should let it cause us to lose ourselves. Perpetual war isn't good, it won't lead anywhere great. It's just a significant and steady drain on people, resources, and goods. Deal with this individually, respond where appropriate; but don't throw the baby out with the bath water, that won't get us anywhere.

In the end, we're fighting this because of 3,000 killed in 9/11. But we've already lost over 4,000 of our own troops and who really knows how many Iraqi civilians and innocents who have been caught up in it. At some point, enough is enough. Terrorism can best be dealt with by attacking the propaganda used by the terrorists for recruitment; and all that is firmly rooted in strong anti-West attitudes. Those are caused by the West's incessant intervention in the area and doing as we please. We need to look at the whole of the problem, not just react with the first instinct which comes to mind (which is usually anger, it's one of the most primitive of emotions).

celticlord said:

Again, more high-flying rhetoric without a shred of foundation to support it.

Click to expand...

It's experienced based. It is easier to hate for hate comes naturally. Anger comes first, it over rides logic. Forgiveness is an emotion of logic. To be able to forgive your enemy, to be able to love him, is much greater than hating them. It takes a lot more effort, maybe you should try it out and see.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Truth Detector said:

You may want to expand your horizons and stop the willful denial:

Click to expand...

I said US State soil, you may want to try reading. It's English, it's not tough; you should have learned it already. Your argument is for my safety. Well I'm not in other parts of the world. I live in the United States. My safety is here, thus attacks on US embassies in war zones and hostile countries does nothing towards my safety. Do you even remember your argument against me? You're keeping me safe. US State soil has had 5 terrorist attacks since the 20's. Hardly an epidemic or something I need to worry about.

So how are you keeping me safe now?

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:

It's experienced based. It is easier to hate for hate comes naturally. Anger comes first, it over rides logic. Forgiveness is an emotion of logic. To be able to forgive your enemy, to be able to love him, is much greater than hating them. It takes a lot more effort, maybe you should try it out and see.

Click to expand...

Maybe you should not be so quick to presume that I have not. Or that you actually have forgiven anybody.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:

And you assume I have denial about how we felt after the 9/11 attacks....why?

Click to expand...

I clearly stated "people." If the shoe fits, then by all means wear it; based on your response, perhaps it did fit and compelled you to post another essay in a vacuum of the facts.

Zyphlin said:

Do I want another 9/11 to happen? No. But I would rather take a 9/11 every 10 years and take the chance that it hits me than continuely go down a road where the very founding principle of America, FREEDOM, is stripped farther and farther away in the name of security.

Click to expand...

And yet this has not happened unless you wallow in paranoia and believe the Liberal talking points that your Government is spying on your every conversation and could just pick you up off the streets and haul you secretly to a gulag like Gitmo. :roll:

Zyphlin said:

However, as old El Rushbo says so often, I reject the premise of your argument. I reject the premise that we HAVE to go over the top and full out to ridiculous levels of security to be able to prevent another 9/11. I believe a near equal amount of protection can be had through less freedom encroaching ways, and I believe that violating the very thing that is used as the reason we need to protect ourselves is counter productive. It is like buying security to keep ones money safe, but spending all of ones money on that security.

Click to expand...

Once again you make the false assertion that we as a nation have somehow gone "over the top." I guess this depends on your version of reality and perceptions and whether you are either a paranoid schizophrenic OR, a Liberal attempting to make specious false claims about our Government for purely partisan political gain. Take your pick dude!

Zyphlin said:

No sir, you're absolutely mistaken. I've not forgot 9/11, nor how we felt at that time, nor do I have a problem with the things we did immediately proceeding. Its the fact that so many of the things that should've gone away over time remain and so many other things have been continued that I have an issue with long after 9/11.

Click to expand...

Oh yes, all those "things;" God forbid we have all those "things" that should have or should not have been done.

Meanwhile, the Liberal elements within our borders march down the path to Government control of every facet of our lives and makes us less safe by publicly proclaiming a new moral high ground to our enemies that suggests that; (1) we will never use any type of enhanced interrogation methods and claim them as ILLEGAL torture. Even suggesting we will prosecute our own for making such judgments; (2) claim we will never force our will on another nation by invading it regardless of circumstances and; (3) will provide terrorists with constitutional rights in the false belief that the world will now respect us and thus reduce acts against our interests.

I'm sorry dude, but in order to have such patently naive beliefs, one has to believe that when one acts like a *****, people will respect them. How does that work on the school playground with bullies?

Carry on. :2wave:

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

From the Original Post said:

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

Click to expand...

I don't believe in torture techniques generally but if he was stupid enough to say such a thing - what did he expect other than to be repeatedly waterboarded until he talked in that climate and with the awful events of 9/11 still raw in the US mind.

I'm still not yet going to support waterboarding in general but thinking in terms of having a possible terrorist saying such a thing to his captors certainly makes the argument against getting that information out of him at any cost harder to justify.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Truth Detector said:

The notion that soldiers dying in ANY nation have nothing to do with your security requires a willful ignorance of REALITY I just cannot fathom.

But along with the willful denial of the emotional blather from the anti-war crowd, we also have the willful suspension of disbelief that the actions of Liberal Democrats impugning the previous administration for perceived acts of torture and the specious false claim that we should never have been in Iraq will now make us all safer.

The terrorists are laughing at us now; we have now declared we will do nothing to interrogate suspects other then coddle them; we will never invade another country and if we catch a terrorist, we will now provide them with habeas corpus rights previously reserved for US citizens.

The fantasy is certainly all yours Ikari and those who make similar arguments.

Click to expand...

-Translation:
"Blah blah blah, I'm a partisan hack"

I get it "Truth" Detector, you can't make logical arguments based in reality. It has to be emotional tripe based off of political propaganda.

You're keeping me safe...yeah right. How? By enacting law which goes against my liberty? By wasting a near trillion of my money to fight occupational wars? By sacrificing over 4,000 American lives for your delusions of grandure? That's keeping me safe?

Terrorists were always an outside threat, always will be. They had little to no impact on my safety. FACT, I am more at risk from drunk drivers than I am from terrorists. FACT, the deadliest of all terrorist attacks on US State soil did not kill as many people as cars do in a year. But you want to make believe that taking out Saddam somehow made me safer? It's pathetic head in sand perception and nothing less. Maybe you have to think this way. Maybe you have to believe that what you're doing is for the better cause. Because to acknowledge how the military has been misused and mishandled in the Iraq war means that the government you defend so much thought nothing of the sacrifice, resolve, and commitment of its soldiers. And so it must be me, the individual out side of the government, who is wrong and not the government itself. Because the government will always honor your commitment. Maybe that's what goes through your head, I don't know for sure. What I do know for sure is that Iraq had 0 to do with my safety. It was certainly used as an excuse by the government to usurp my liberty, but my safety has not been increased.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Zyphlin said:

Actually, this proves it CAN work. It doesn't prove it "does" work, as does suggests it works across the board all the time.

I think MOST reasonable people can accept that intense interrogation, mild torture, or even extreme torture can all yield legitimate results. As I've stated repeatedly, we would not put our own men in the military through things such as waterboarding and other things in preparation for being able to withstand it if captured if there wasn't a chance that they could give out legitimate information.

However, the question comes as follows:

1. Does it yield enough legitimate information on a consistant enough basis that it is worth it.

2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.

3. Are there more effective ways to retrieve said information that is less questionable and has less effect in regards to #2.

4. Does the potential for over reliance on a tactic whose information may yeild a high amount of false positives outweight the benefit of the legitimate information we can recieve.

5. Does the use of such techniques raise the likihood that our soldiers in future wars against groups that previously did not routinely use such techniques or worse will be subject to such techniques due to the expectation that the U.S. will be doing it to theirs?

These are some of the questions I think one must begin to ask themselves once they accept the fact that it IS possible to get legitimate worth while information from not just these kind of techniques but even full out universally held acts of "torture" but also accept the fact that such a process is far from a perfect form of gaining information that does have at least POTENTIAL pitfalls.
4.

Click to expand...

The groups that capture our troops routinely cut off heads. I can't imagine it getting much worse.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Quote:Originally Posted by MrVicchio
You don't live in the real world do you?

You'd rather have people killed, DEAD...

And you cannot name a single RIGHT lost during the Bush years... you actually made me sick

ADK_Forever said:

"WHO" doesn't live in the real world? Got a barf bag? :doh

Click to expand...

The above once again illustrates that once more you cannot name one.

Carry on; denial leads to ignorance, don't do denial. :rofl

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:

I said US State soil, you may want to try reading. It's English, it's not tough; you should have learned it already. Your argument is for my safety. Well I'm not in other parts of the world. I live in the United States. My safety is here, thus attacks on US embassies in war zones and hostile countries does nothing towards my safety. Do you even remember your argument against me? You're keeping me safe. US State soil has had 5 terrorist attacks since the 20's. Hardly an epidemic or something I need to worry about.

So how are you keeping me safe now?

Click to expand...

This type of thinking ignores a couple of key unavoidable facts. First off we're becoming more and more global. Our economies are interlinked quite heavily and our dependence for resources is all quite interlinked. As we become more global the Earth essentially shrinks in so far as ignoring those folks over there goes.

Second, we are the world's superpower.

I understand that many many folks think we should stop involving ourselves in issues around the world, militarily.

However my response to that would be if we ignore things and wait till it is impossible to ignore them any longer before taking action then we're probably setting our men and women in the military up to fight harder more difficult battles later for the comfort of sticking our heads in the sand in the here and now. Allowing things to fester because they are not our immediate direct problem essentially allows them to grow so that when we are called on -and ultimately we will be- we face just that much bigger of a problem.

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ikari said:

There are circumstances where necessary evil must be taken. But I think we should do our best to limit the amount we engage in evil overall. If avoidable, we should avoid it.

Click to expand...

Once again you have to wallow in willful historic ignorance to claim one can "avoid" evil. The answer to evil is to CONFRONT it.

Carry on. :roll:

Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Truth Detector said:

Once again you have to wallow in willful historic ignorance to claim one can "avoid" evil. The answer to evil is to CONFRONT it.

Carry on. :roll:

Click to expand...

Translation:
"blah blah blah, I have nothing to add here, I just wanted to insult you and have taken such an opportunity to do so. My comment contained no grain of intellectual honesty, no purpose towards debate, and very little to no intellect involved. Carry on, I'll go find some other post by you which I can insult and still not add anything to the debate...till then."