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CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

Renae

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(CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”
CNSNews.com - CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

I guess this settles the debate on whether or not waterboarding works. Saved lives, caught terrorist. Good thing really.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Actually, this proves it CAN work. It doesn't prove it "does" work, as does suggests it works across the board all the time.

I think MOST reasonable people can accept that intense interrogation, mild torture, or even extreme torture can all yield legitimate results. As I've stated repeatedly, we would not put our own men in the military through things such as waterboarding and other things in preparation for being able to withstand it if captured if there wasn't a chance that they could give out legitimate information.

However, the question comes as follows:

1. Does it yield enough legitimate information on a consistant enough basis that it is worth it.

2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.

3. Are there more effective ways to retrieve said information that is less questionable and has less effect in regards to #2.

4. Does the potential for over reliance on a tactic whose information may yeild a high amount of false positives outweight the benefit of the legitimate information we can recieve.

5. Does the use of such techniques raise the likihood that our soldiers in future wars against groups that previously did not routinely use such techniques or worse will be subject to such techniques due to the expectation that the U.S. will be doing it to theirs?

These are some of the questions I think one must begin to ask themselves once they accept the fact that it IS possible to get legitimate worth while information from not just these kind of techniques but even full out universally held acts of "torture" but also accept the fact that such a process is far from a perfect form of gaining information that does have at least POTENTIAL pitfalls.
4.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

CNSNews? Are you serious?

You cite a reknowned propoganda source and claim it proves your point.

Now THAT is funny.:doh
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

CNSNews? Are you serious?

You cite a reknowned propoganda source and claim it proves your point.

Now THAT is funny.:doh

Having you come on and bash the source instead of the info now thats... expected. Are you related to HDL?

IT was the first source I found backing what cheney was saying... if it turns out bogus, by all means bring out the "truth", otherwise, all you have is... your usual shtick.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Actually, this proves it CAN work. It doesn't prove it "does" work, as does suggests it works across the board all the time.

I think MOST reasonable people can accept that intense interrogation, mild torture, or even extreme torture can all yield legitimate results. As I've stated repeatedly, we would not put our own men in the military through things such as waterboarding and other things in preparation for being able to withstand it if captured if there wasn't a chance that they could give out legitimate information.
According to the article, the restrictions on such use were very well defined.

However, the question comes as follows:

1. Does it yield enough legitimate information on a consistant enough basis that it is worth it.

Counter, what happens when we do not use such and learn later a preventable attack was carried out... do the families of the dead get to sue because we didn't do everything we could to prevent it?

2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.
And what countries are we expecting to cheer us on for not doing such? France.. the same country that did, and does business with Iran?

3. Are there more effective ways to retrieve said information that is less questionable and has less effect in regards to #2.
If you know of any send them to the WH.

4. Does the potential for over reliance on a tactic whose information may yeild a high amount of false positives outweight the benefit of the legitimate information we can recieve.
I'd break the knee caps of any terrorist that had possible information to save lives and sleep well at night. I'd have nightmares if I learned I didn't act and people died.

5. Does the use of such techniques raise the likihood that our soldiers in future wars against groups that previously did not routinely use such techniques or worse will be subject to such techniques due to the expectation that the U.S. will be doing it to theirs?
This is a false argument. We treated Vietnamese POW's well, our boys were tortured.

These are some of the questions I think one must begin to ask themselves once they accept the fact that it IS possible to get legitimate worth while information from not just these kind of techniques but even full out universally held acts of "torture" but also accept the fact that such a process is far from a perfect form of gaining information that does have at least POTENTIAL pitfalls.
4.
The real question to ask is, could you sleep at night knowing that terrorist in custody knew about that bomb and we didn't get the information in time.

I couldn't.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

1. Does it yield enough legitimate information on a consistant enough basis that it is worth it.

Why is consistency a valid consideration? If we avert one major terrorist attack because of these methods - thus saving thousands or even millions of lives - then consistency is not important.

2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.

If it averts one major terrorist attack then it's worth all the pissed off foreigners in the world. I'm not concerned with how others perceive us.

3. Are there more effective ways to retrieve said information...

This is a valid question, but only in isolation. Your qualifier...

that is less questionable and has less effect in regards to #2.

...is immaterial to the legitimacy of anything we do.

4. Does the potential for over reliance on a tactic whose information may yeild a high amount of false positives outweight the benefit of the legitimate information we can recieve.

Not if we avert even one major terrorist attack.

5. Does the use of such techniques raise the likihood that our soldiers in future wars against groups that previously did not routinely use such techniques or worse will be subject to such techniques due to the expectation that the U.S. will be doing it to theirs?

Even if it did raise the likelihood of such techniques being used on our troops, it wouldn't matter.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ethereal, would you support the systematic:

1. Deportation
2. Imprisonment
3. Murder

Of any muslim in the U.S. if it prevented just one terrorist attack?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

However, the question comes as follows:

1. Does it yield enough legitimate information on a consistant enough basis that it is worth it.

2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.

3. Are there more effective ways to retrieve said information that is less questionable and has less effect in regards to #2.

4. Does the potential for over reliance on a tactic whose information may yeild a high amount of false positives outweight the benefit of the legitimate information we can recieve.

5. Does the use of such techniques raise the likihood that our soldiers in future wars against groups that previously did not routinely use such techniques or worse will be subject to such techniques due to the expectation that the U.S. will be doing it to theirs?

These are some of the questions I think one must begin to ask themselves once they accept the fact that it IS possible to get legitimate worth while information from not just these kind of techniques but even full out universally held acts of "torture" but also accept the fact that such a process is far from a perfect form of gaining information that does have at least POTENTIAL pitfalls.
4.

And the alternative is? Do nothing? :cool:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ethereal, would you support the systematic:

1. Deportation
2. Imprisonment
3. Murder

Of any muslim in the U.S. if it prevented just one terrorist attack?

Why is murder an option? :shock:
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Until the CIA comes out and says, - we got no actionable intelligence from our interrogation until right after we waterboarded him - the claim is speacious at best. What that article says to me is that they used a LOT of different techniques.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Why is torture an option? :doh

Define torture.

To me, using whatever means necessary to save lives and stopping is not torture.

Beating some one for days for no reason... that's torture.

Being cruel, hurtful... causing pain for no legitimate purpose... that's torture.

Needing to save 1, 10, 1,000 or more lives and having to cause someone discomfort, or yes, even pain. Well, they made the choice to be a part of such events, we need to stop them.

That's the difference between torture, and extracting vital information.

All of you, EACH of you "But we cannot torture" people always leave out the fact the people being subjected to such... are terrorist, that desire to kill your fellow man. Why do you care more for the comfort of such people over the lives of innocent people?

I'll never ever understand that.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Why is murder an option? :shock:

Ethereal's point was, seemingly, the end's justify the means.

As such, I want to see how far that logic goes with him. Torture of inmates that are assumed to have information is okay if it prevents a single terrorist attack for him. Does that apply to deporting an entire religious group? Imprisoning them? Executing them? Where is the line when the ends no longer justify the means to him. That's why its there.

In regards to TD, I don't know exactly. My post was not advocating one way or another. My questions were not advocating one way or another. ANY one of those questions could be used to decide that Full Out traditional torture was okay or not, that this current crop of intensive interrogation/mild torture is okay or not, that intense interrogation is okay or not, and that even imprisonment and questioning is okay or not. NONE of my questions were indicating that the answer was "yes" or "no" either way. It was only stating that, once you accept that Torture CAN produce legitimate results but doesn't ALWAYS produce it and that it DOES create some POTENTIAL negatives, those questions are generally what one must ask themselves to come to a conclusion if its okay.

To people like Ethereal, his posts makes me think even going so far as to go to traditional torture of breaking bones, bamboo shoots, and other things are perfectly okay if it prevents a terrorist attack. Others seems to think that the answers lead them to believe that the damage it does to our moral standing and out integrity as a nation is not worth the small chance in their mind of getting legitimate information that is actionable.

Some people seem to have a similar view as the famous movie character Col. Jessup, that the military should be left alone from the general populous because they have to do dirty and disgusting and dishonorable things in the name of security and trying to hold them to some kind of morality standard is dangerous to this country. Others believe that if our military doesn't embody the things we are supposedly fighting for and instead embodies some of the things we're fighting against then we have no moral standing to say our way is right and as such we must defend ourselves from you and spread our views to your people.

In regards to alternatives to things like waterboarding and others, numerous military and intelligence officials have came out and stated after the fact that there are legitimate non-psychological torture ways of still extracting information from people. But frankly, I'm not educated on the subject enough EITHER WAY to truly make a call on that one and I'd imagine, frankly, that FEW people on this site have HONESTLY researched BOTH SIDES enough to answer that in anything but a biased one sided way. However I've heard enough in passing from various sources for me to believe that our intelligence community if given the challenge could find legitimate ways to still extract information without going to some of the lengths we currently go to. That's not to say I have a distinct problem with the vast majority of what we do, but simply speaking to the possibility for alternatives.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Ethereal, would you support the systematic:

1. Deportation
2. Imprisonment
3. Murder

Of any muslim in the U.S. if it prevented just one terrorist attack?

No, I would not sacrifice the entirety of our nation's moral integrity to prevent a terrorist attack. I would, however, sacrifice a measure of our moral integrity to prevent a terrorist attack. Discretion must be inherent to any interrogation or intelligence operation. We cannot simply mutilate a person because there's a ten percent chance they might know of an impending terrorist attack, but I would have no qualms about putting Osama Bin Laden's testicles in a vice if he were aware of such an attack.

The lines have always been blurred; the idea that they are well-defined is a contemporary illusion.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

All of you, EACH of you "But we cannot torture" people always leave out the fact the people being subjected to such... are terrorist, that desire to kill your fellow man. Why do you care more for the comfort of such people over the lives of innocent people?

I'll never ever understand that.

I'm not even one of those "we cannot torture" people...

But can you guarantee that 100% of the time that these things happen they always occur to someone that is legitimately a terrorist....let alone someone that has actually violated ANY law or someone that actually has any information?
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Until the CIA comes out and says, - we got no actionable intelligence from our interrogation until right after we waterboarded him - the claim is speacious at best. What that article says to me is that they used a LOT of different techniques.

No one's interested in swaying the minds of rabid partisans.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Define torture.

To me, using whatever means necessary to save lives and stopping is not torture.
Like ending them? Ending lives to save lives seems futile. All life is important, not just the lives of Americans.

Beating some one for days for no reason... that's torture.

Being cruel, hurtful... causing pain for no legitimate purpose... that's torture.

Needing to save 1, 10, 1,000 or more lives and having to cause someone discomfort, or yes, even pain. Well, they made the choice to be a part of such events, we need to stop them.

That's the difference between torture, and extracting vital information.
So what happens when no vital information is extracted? Then you have beaten someone for days and nothing was gained. But that's okay, because it's only Americans that count, right?

All of you, EACH of you "But we cannot torture" people always leave out the fact the people being subjected to such... are terrorist, that desire to kill your fellow man. Why do you care more for the comfort of such people over the lives of innocent people?

I'll never ever understand that.
I care for the comfort of all people, not just those who were born in my country by chance.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

No, I would not sacrifice the entirety of our nation's moral integrity to prevent a terrorist attack. I would, however, sacrifice a measure of our moral integrity to prevent a terrorist attack. Discretion must be inherent to any interrogation or intelligence operation. We cannot simply mutilate a person because there's a ten percent chance they might know of an impending terrorist attack, but I would have no qualms about putting Osama Bin Laden's testicles in a vice if he were aware of such an attack.

The lines have always been blurred; the idea that they are well-defined is a contemporary illusion.

So torture is bad, but its okay to do it, if we have a legitimate good chance to get information from the person? How good of a chance should it be? Should there be any kind of accountable party that determines if its such? Should there be reprucussions if its found that the chance was far less than the people doing it claimed in some sort of substantial way? Should there be varying levels of torture allowed for varying chances? IE if its a 50% chance he has information its okay to waterboard but if its 90% chance he has information its okay to mutilate.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Am I the only one that sees the irony in many of those that scream fascism, tyranny, and socialism with every bailout, environmental protection, or social safety-net, are also some of the biggest defenders of government sanctioned torture, denial of habeas corpus, and warrantless wiretaps?

You don't trust the government to bail out a bank, but you trust them with torture? You don't trust the government to administer say, unemployment extensions, but you trust them with selectively denying habeas corpus?

You guys that defend this crap are the very enablers of tyranny and you don't even know it.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

2. Does the damage to our integrety as a nation and world standing outweight the potential gains of using such techniques in light of #1.

You know, the more I've thought about this issue the more I become convinced that had a President Obama been president during a major terrorist attack and had it been a Democratic administration interrogating these captured al qaeda suspects... the world community would never blink an eye about any of this.

No doubt in my mind. This whole 'torture' issue has been and always was a Bush bashing hate-fest. Nothing more.

:doh
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

You know, the more I've thought about this issue the more I become convinced that had a President Obama been president during a major terrorist attack and had it been a Democratic administration interrogating these captured al qaeda suspects... the world community would never blink an eye about any of this.

No doubt in my mind. This whole 'torture' issue has been and always was a Bush bashing hate-fest. Nothing more.

:doh
Well thanks for your unsubstantiated opinion presented as fact.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

So torture is bad, but its okay to do it, if we have a legitimate good chance to get information from the person?

We must first agree on what constitutes "torture". If someone is aware of an impending terrorist attack and we use pain and even the threat of death to extract information from them, I do not consider it torture. I consider it a legitimate interrogation method employed to extract information relevant to our national security.

How good of a chance should it be? Should there be any kind of accountable party that determines if its such? Should there be reprucussions if its found that the chance was far less than the people doing it claimed in some sort of substantial way? Should there be varying levels of torture allowed for varying chances? IE if its a 50% chance he has information its okay to waterboard but if its 90% chance he has information its okay to mutilate.

These are all valid considerations. Like I said, discretion must be inherent to any interrogation or intelligence operation. We cannot simply go around mutilating individuals willy-nilly in the hopes we will randomly extract relevant information from one of them. However, if we possess virtually indisputable evidence that someone possesses information concerning an impending terrorist attack I believe "torture" must be an option.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

Am I the only one that sees the irony in many of those that scream fascism, tyranny, and socialism with every bailout, environmental protection, or social safety-net, are also some of the biggest defenders of government sanctioned torture, denial of habeas corpus, and warrantless wiretaps?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in people who always seem to be more worried about the rights of terrorists, criminals, illegal aliens, and drug-addicts than they are about the rights of hard-working tax-paying citizens?

;)
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

All of you, EACH of you "But we cannot torture" people always leave out the fact the people being subjected to such... are terrorist, that desire to kill your fellow man. Why do you care more for the comfort of such people over the lives of innocent people?

I'll never ever understand that.

Because in the end, human is human. Terrorist or no, they are still human. I think we should work hard to limit torture as much as possible. There are too many different things which can get involved if we take it as standard operating procedure. And how good is the information? I'm sure from time to time you're bound to get something; does that ok the use of torture? Even if it catches some innocents in with it? The entire "there's a bomb going to explode, only torturing this terrorist will get you the information you need" scenario is ridiculously rare. And what's to say you have the right guy, or the information will be correct? It's too inconsistent, too many things can be exploited and abused. It's best to do our best to avoid it.

Terrorists may do despicable acts, but that doesn't mean we have to reciprocate. We're better than they are, we can show mercy even to those whom wish us harm.
 
Re: CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style A

I'm not even one of those "we cannot torture" people...

But can you guarantee that 100% of the time that these things happen they always occur to someone that is legitimately a terrorist....let alone someone that has actually violated ANY law or someone that actually has any information?

Can we afford not to?

twin-towers.jpg
 
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