• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Cheney: US gained information from interrogations

disneydude

disneydude

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Messages
25,528
Reaction score
8,470
Location
Los Angeles
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Cheney: US gained information from interrogations

From the article: "Former Vice President Dick Cheney says the U.S. government gained valuable intelligence from its aggressive interrogations of high-value detainees after the September 2001 terrorist attacks.

The government's methods are described in documents newly released by the Obama administration and have drawn new scrutiny over what might be appropriate treatment — or what might be construed as torture."


What Cheney and his neo-con imperialist cohorts fail to understand is that the ends do not justify the means.

Yes...of course torture sometimes works, however, it doesn't mean that it is right...and more importantly we should never mortgage our morals and standards as a country to fight our enemies by their methods. When we do that, we have already not only lost the battle, but we've lost the war...and any possible victory would be a shallow one at best.
 
I wonder how much true information to false information is gained through torture. Certainly not everything is going to be true, and I dare say that someone being tortured would be very eager to admit to or agree with near anything (besides more torture). I don't think it's entirely accurate, and the fact of the matter is that its practice is not morally acceptable nor does it only get that one bad guy who knows where the bomb is. There are going to be lots of innocents or people without the knowledge who get caught up in it as well. It's best to avoid the whole thing...but then again that's almost my opinion on the Iraq war.
 
Iraq is still unstable and Bin Laden is still free. Obviously the information they gained wasn't game winning.
 
disneydude said:
What Cheney and his neo-con imperialist cohorts fail to understand is that the ends do not justify the means.
Click to expand...


That's really easy for you to say. Of course, you didn't lose any family members on 9/11 and maybe if one of those attacks which had been prevented had been successful and killed some of your family members you'd be singing a different tune.

Yes...of course torture sometimes works, however, it doesn't mean that it is right...and more importantly we should never mortgage our morals and standards as a country to fight our enemies by their methods. When we do that, we have already not only lost the battle, but we've lost the war...and any possible victory would be a shallow one at best.
Click to expand...

Yep, cause the CIA was out there cutting peoples' heads off purely for the propaganda value and intentionally killing thousands of civilians. We've TOTALLY stooped to their level.
 
BulletWounD said:
That's really easy for you to say. Of course, you didn't lose any family members on 9/11 and maybe if one of those attacks which had been prevented had been successful and killed some of your family members you'd be singing a different tune.
Click to expand...

This person had a friend die in one of those attacks. He was on the first plane that went into the World Trade Center. I feel the same way disneydude does. Just FYI.
 
1) Terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva Convention.

2) Terrorists are willing to murder anyone for their evil goals.

3) Torture works.

Given the above, there's no logical or moral reason to be opposed to the torture of terrorists to prevent future acts of terrorism.

Then again, the world is overcrowded with whiny panty-waists who claim a pirate is just an underfed misguided teenager.
 
BulletWounD said:
That's really easy for you to say. Of course, you didn't lose any family members on 9/11 and maybe if one of those attacks which had been prevented had been successful and killed some of your family members you'd be singing a different tune.
Click to expand...

Thats why we don't leave questions of justice and morality to the victims of a crime. For example, if someone killed someone in my family, then if it were up to me, I would probably just take them out and shoot them. However, thats exactly why it would not be left up to me, and thus they would get a fair trial and would be sentenced by the judge and not by me.


Yep, cause the CIA was out there cutting peoples' heads off purely for the propaganda value and intentionally killing thousands of civilians. We've TOTALLY stooped to their level.
Click to expand...

Actions by the CIA over the years have resulted in hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths. Intelligence agencies have long had a history of excess and the violation of human rights. That is why we should always be vigilant in overseeing and governing their activities.

1954

Guatemala — CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup. Arbenz has threatened to nationalize the Rockefeller-owned United Fruit Company, in which CIA Director Allen Dulles also owns stock. Arbenz is replaced with a series of right-wing dictators whose bloodthirsty policies will kill over 100,000 Guatemalans in the next 40 years.

1959

Haiti — The U.S. military helps "Papa Doc" Duvalier become dictator of Haiti. He creates his own private police force, the "Tonton Macoutes," who terrorize the population with machetes. They will kill over 100,000 during the Duvalier family reign. The U.S. does not protest their dismal human rights record.

1964

Brazil — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the democratically elected government of Joao Goulart. The junta that replaces it will, in the next two decades, become one of the most bloodthirsty in history. General Castelo Branco will create Latin America’s first death squads, or bands of secret police who hunt down "communists" for torture, interrogation and murder. Often these "communists" are no more than Branco’s political opponents. Later it is revealed that the CIA trains the death squads.

1965

Indonesia — The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Sukarno with a military coup. The CIA has been trying to eliminate Sukarno since 1957, using everything from attempted assassination to sexual intrigue, for nothing more than his declaring neutrality in the Cold War. His successor, General Suharto, will massacre between 500,000 to 1 million civilians accused of being "communist." The CIA supplies the names of countless suspects.

The list goes on and on.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
1) Terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva Convention.

2) Terrorists are willing to murder anyone for their evil goals.

3) Torture works.

Given the above, there's no logical or moral reason to be opposed to the torture of terrorists to prevent future acts of terrorism.

Then again, the world is overcrowded with whiny panty-waists who claim a pirate is just an underfed misguided teenager.
Click to expand...

Your first two points may be accurate, your third point is nonsense, the evidence against it overwhelming. You would have us believe someone who cannot justify torture is a "panty-waist"....well I tell you that a man who tortures or condones torture is a coward, who lacks the intelligence and bravery to confront his enemies. Dick Cheney is a coward, and I am embarrased that he is an American.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Thats why we don't leave questions of justice and morality to the victims of a crime. For example, if someone killed someone in my family, then if it were up to me, I would probably just take them out and shoot them. However, thats exactly why it would not be left up to me, and thus they would get a fair trial and would be sentenced by the judge and not by me.
Click to expand...

So your solution is to let thousands of people die and then give them a fair trial where no amount of punishment can make up for the damage they have caused?
 
BulletWounD said:
So your solution is to let thousands of people die and then give them a fair trial where no amount of punishment can make up for the damage they have caused?
Click to expand...

My solution is simply that if something is universally regarded as torture, and if we have in our history actually prosecuted others for engaging in it, then we should not do it.

Why not torture murder suspects? In any given year roughly 8 times as many people are murdered in the United States than were killed on September 11th, 2001. So why not torture murder suspects if we are willing to torture terrorist suspects?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
My solution is simply that if something is universally regarded as torture, and if we have in our history actually prosecuted others for engaging in it, then we should not do it.

Why not torture murder suspects? In any given year roughly 8 times as many people are murdered in the United States than were killed on September 11th, 2001. So why not torture murder suspects if we are willing to torture terrorist suspects?
Click to expand...

These techniques were not used as punishment. They were used to discover other al-queda members to prevent future attacks.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
1) Terrorists aren't covered by the Geneva Convention.

2) Terrorists are willing to murder anyone for their evil goals.

3) Torture works.

Given the above, there's no logical or moral reason to be opposed to the torture of terrorists to prevent future acts of terrorism.
Click to expand...

I think all three of these points are factually true -- but your conclusion doesn't follow from it.
 
GottaHurt said:
The Obama administration needs to step up to the plate and get to the truth. Cheney is right, release the documents showing the results of the interrogation techniques. It's time to put the myth that torture doesn't work to bed.

Obama, CIA chief patch up interrogation-memo rift | Reuters
Click to expand...

The "results" of interrogation were trumpeted years ago in the NYT, a long list of operations "given up" by tortured terrorists. They all turned out to be phony, and the list Cheney wants released is probably phony too, in fact it's probably the same list.

The only myth that needs to be put to bed is the myth that torture works. It only works on 24, in the real world the intelligence professionals all say it doesn't work. Not only does it not work, but it generates increased enlistment in terror groups, and I don't think anyone is stupid enough to want that.
 
WillRockwell said:
The "results" of interrogation were trumpeted years ago in the NYT, a long list of operations "given up" by tortured terrorists. They all turned out to be phony, and the list Cheney wants released is probably phony too, in fact it's probably the same list.

The only myth that needs to be put to bed is the myth that torture works. It only works on 24, in the real world the intelligence professionals all say it doesn't work. Not only does it not work, but it generates increased enlistment in terror groups, and I don't think anyone is stupid enough to want that.
Click to expand...

Then there's no harm in releasing the results. You're taking at face value that these memos recently released are accurate, then you'll have no problem embracing the other documents either.

It's win/win for all.
 
GottaHurt said:
The Obama administration needs to step up to the plate and get to the truth. Cheney is right, release the documents showing the results of the interrogation techniques. It's time to put the myth that torture doesn't work to bed.

Obama, CIA chief patch up interrogation-memo rift | Reuters
Click to expand...

I don't know if that will make a difference. It would require torture to have absolutely zero or a negative return for those that support it to accept it's not worth it. If even 1 torturee out of 100 gave a positive lead that resulted in lives being saved then those that support torture will see it well worth the negative efforts. It wouldn't even matter if other people died due to the false leads that were followed.
 
I would definitely condone coersive methods as long as:

1) due process for coercion is established and followed.

2) the incident is well documented and available for public knowledge for prosecution of any misconduct.

3) Life can be saved if the expected information is retrieved.
 
WillRockwell said:
The "results" of interrogation were trumpeted years ago in the NYT, a long list of operations "given up" by tortured terrorists. They all turned out to be phony, and the list Cheney wants released is probably phony too, in fact it's probably the same list.

The only myth that needs to be put to bed is the myth that torture works. It only works on 24, in the real world the intelligence professionals all say it doesn't work. Not only does it not work, but it generates increased enlistment in terror groups, and I don't think anyone is stupid enough to want that.
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in hearing about. Though again, I sort of think all this stuff should really be kept private. But Obama released the memos and is now in apologetic mode as well as reminding us that our troops will behave now and cease acting like barbarians since he's in charge. :roll:

If they got good info and they got documents showing that they were able to use waterboarding as an effective technique of gathering information which caused no bodily harm then I'd find that very interesting.

I call BS on waterboarding leading to "increased enlistment" in terror groups. I think Obama going on tv announcing how sweet and nice we're gonna be and how we're gonna redefine torture to include anything that causes even momentary mental anguish or stress has a far greater chance of increasing enlistment.
 
talloulou said:
I think Obama going on tv announcing how sweet and nice we're gonna be and how we're gonna redefine torture to include anything that causes even momentary mental anguish or stress has a far greater chance of increasing enlistment.
Click to expand...

Do you seriously believe that potential terrorists sit around and decide whether to join a terrorist group based on whether the US is going to torture them if they are caught? "Oh...well since Obama announced he's not going to torture, I'm going to sign up...whew....that's a relief because if the US continued to torture, I was going to have to have second thoughts?....sounds kinda silly right?
 
Release the documents that show the results or shut up.

Simple as that.



No more of this we're going to demonize people for actions we know very little to nothing about coupled with claiming things are a failure based on nothing but our idealistic based opinions.



Put up or shut up Obama.
 
Last edited:
If America's biggest liar, Dick Cheney, actually had any proof of this absurd claim he would have spit them up all over himself. And don't give me that "it's classified" crap. They've mentioned those bogus claims before and they were shot down with... uhhh... facts!

The facts are that they wasted millions of $.$$ chasing down all the BS that their torture produced. And NONE of them ever produced anything. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. To believe otherwise, with no facts to back it up, is to believe that Cheney practices good gun safety. :roll:

Speaking of Dickie's lies:
Cheney said he has formally asked the CIA to declassify the memos.

However, a senior intelligence official said Tuesday the CIA has received no such requests from the former vice president. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to disclose it publicly.
Click to expand...
from: Cheney: US gained information from interrogations


I don't know if it's already been posted but, here is what a reputable news organization says about this fairy tale: Detainee's Harsh Treatment Foiled No Plots - washingtonpost.com

The methods succeeded in breaking him, and the stories he told of al-Qaeda terrorism plots sent CIA officers around the globe chasing leads.

In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations.
Click to expand...

Abu Zubaida was not even an official member of al-Qaeda, according to a portrait of the man that emerges from court documents and interviews with current and former intelligence, law enforcement and military sources. Rather, he was a "fixer" for radical Muslim ideologues, and he ended up working directly with al-Qaeda only after Sept. 11 -- and that was because the United States stood ready to invade Afghanistan.
Click to expand...

Abu Zubaida was not even an official member of al-Qaeda, according to a portrait of the man that emerges from court documents and interviews with current and former intelligence, law enforcement and military sources. Rather, he was a "fixer" for radical Muslim ideologues, and he ended up working directly with al-Qaeda only after Sept. 11 -- and that was because the United States stood ready to invade Afghanistan.
Click to expand...

Since 2006, Senate intelligence committee members have pressed the CIA, in classified briefings, to provide examples of specific leads that were obtained from Abu Zubaida through the use of waterboarding and other methods, according to officials familiar with the requests.

The agency provided none, the officials said.
Click to expand...

Thank God that corrupt, criminal and traitorist group of liars are not in power anymore. The healing has begun.
 
ADK_Forever said:
If America's biggest liar, Dick Cheney, actually had any proof of this absurd claim he would have spit them up all over himself. And don't give me that "it's classified" crap. They've mentioned those bogus claims before and they were shot down with... uhhh... facts!

The facts are that they wasted millions of $.$$ chasing down all the BS that their torture produced. And NONE of them ever produced anything. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. To believe otherwise, with no facts to back it up, is to believe that Cheney practices good gun safety. :roll:

Speaking of Dickie's lies:

from: Cheney: US gained information from interrogations


I don't know if it's already been posted but, here is what a reputable news organization says about this fairy tale: Detainee's Harsh Treatment Foiled No Plots - washingtonpost.com









Thank God that corrupt, criminal and traitorist group of liars are not in power anymore. The healing has begun.
Click to expand...

"Dickies lies", "traitorist group", "secret sources" and people "not authorized to speak".

Truth Detectors liberal twin has made his appearance.

Carry on. :rofl
 
Last edited:
ADK_Forever said:
If America's biggest liar, Dick Cheney, actually had any proof of this absurd claim he would have spit them up all over himself. And don't give me that "it's classified" crap. They've mentioned those bogus claims before and they were shot down with... uhhh... facts!

The facts are that they wasted millions of $.$$ chasing down all the BS that their torture produced. And NONE of them ever produced anything. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zero. To believe otherwise, with no facts to back it up, is to believe that Cheney practices good gun safety. :roll:

Speaking of Dickie's lies:

from: Cheney: US gained information from interrogations


I don't know if it's already been posted but, here is what a reputable news organization says about this fairy tale: Detainee's Harsh Treatment Foiled No Plots - washingtonpost.com









Thank God that corrupt, criminal and traitorist group of liars are not in power anymore. The healing has begun.
Click to expand...

So that's one guy whose waterboarding led nowhere. Doesn't speak to others.
 
talloulou said:
So that's one guy whose waterboarding led nowhere. Doesn't speak to others.
Click to expand...

Talloulou, don't you think if they got any concrete evidence out of all that torture they would be flying it on banners from... say, Navy ships?

They got nothing from any of it. Just like their military experts told them they wouldn't... before they even went down that road.

They just wanted to flex their muscles. Neither had the guts to flex anything in the military so, this was their chance to act tough. Even if it was the stupid and ignorant choice. They "wanted" to torture someone, anyone.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom