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Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

The laughter you hear are the enemies of freedom and peace watching us tear at each other over perceived acts of torture.
Passive interrogation techniques are not analogous to a free pass. It was the new interrogators from Fort Huachuca who developed the critical intelligence which led to the US air strike which killed Abu Musab Zarqawi.

In addition, every AQI and insurgent who admitted having anything at all to do with suicide-bombings was tried and hanged by the Iraqi government.
 
Passive interrogation techniques are not analogous to a free pass. It was the new interrogators from Fort Huachuca who developed the critical intelligence which led to the US air strike which killed Abu Musab Zarqawi.

In addition, every AQI and insurgent who admitted having anything at all to do with suicide-bombings was tried and hanged by the Iraqi government.

But it was the more malevolent techniques which broke Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, probably the most devastating blow to Al-queda proper... Could he have been broken any other way? Maybe, maybe not...
 
You are kidding right? The ONLY message we are currently sending to our enemies is that it is okay to commit terrorist acts on our people and we will not only try to placate you if we catch you, but hand you rights you never had and then attempt to impugn our own Government for any grievance you have.

We are telling our enemies that we are pushovers who don't have the spine to do what it takes and naively think that how we treat you may possibly change your behavior towards us.

The laughter you hear are the enemies of freedom and peace watching us tear at each other over perceived acts of torture. They laugh at us for being soft, weak and for being so damned stupid that we want to prosecute our own people for an act like water boarding desperate murdering terrorists who wouldn't have a second thought about sawing your head from your torso as you screamed for mercy.

Good lord, what level of denial and naïveté' does it take to have such views? I want everyone with the views you share to think about what you believed when the next horrible terrorist event occurs. But it’s okay, you can tell their wives or fathers or children that their moms, dads or kids could die with the knowledge that we didn’t torture anyone and can hold our heads high.

:roll:


The only naivete I see here is your misguided notion that torturing breeds fear and respect, and keeps us safe. Are you simply mouthing Cheney ideology or did you get your foreign policy degree from Jack Bauer University? Torture has caused the deaths of American servicemen, by inspiring and enraging militants, and the policy of torture has made us less safe. If you don't understand that, please observe silence and allow the adults to keep YOU safe.
 
The only naivete I see here is your misguided notion that torturing breeds fear and respect, and keeps us safe. Are you simply mouthing Cheney ideology or did you get your foreign policy degree from Jack Bauer University? Torture has caused the deaths of American servicemen, by inspiring and enraging militants, and the policy of torture has made us less safe. If you don't understand that, please observe silence and allow the adults to keep YOU safe.

I disagree. It seems these techniques may have played a vital role in disassembling Al-Queda... Breaking the unbreakable... I also doubt that the militants had any idea what was happening to these 14 "high value" assets in the most controlled human environment in perhaps the entire world. Of course, now that the Idiot in Chief released the memo...
 
But it was the more malevolent techniques which broke Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, probably the most devastating blow to Al-queda proper... Could he have been broken any other way? Maybe, maybe not...
As far as I can see his "breaking" was of little direct importance to the immediate saving of lives. It was about confirming information and such.
 
As far as I can see his "breaking" was of little direct importance to the immediate saving of lives. It was about confirming information and such.

Right, but he undoubtedly revealed many operatives which lead to many more operatives etc. I'm really not sure we could get an accurate accounting of this and how many lives were saved. The waterboarding is what got him talking and it seems he kept talking.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed said:
Because war, for sure, there will be victims. When I said I'm not happy that three thousand been killed in America. I feel sorry even...Killing is prohibited in all what you call the People of the Book, Jews, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. You know the Ten Commandments very well. The Ten Commandments are shared between all of us. We all are serving one God."

Amen.

War is hell.
 
Right, but he undoubtedly revealed many operatives which lead to many more operatives etc. I'm really not sure we could get an accurate accounting of this and how many lives were saved. The waterboarding is what got him talking and it seems he kept talking.
As far as I can see his "talking" was far from worth the loss of honour and decency it entailed. He revealed a few names but this isn't 24, it simply was not worth it.

It seems to me torture may generally add a little bit of of information, that may or may not be true, for a very high price.
 
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As far as I can see his "breaking" was of little direct importance to the immediate saving of lives. It was about confirming information and such.

Apparently it's not so clear.

Did waterboarding work? - Los Angeles Times

The memos released Thursday provide glimpses of the activities at the so-called black sites, secret U.S. prisons around the world. A 2002 document, for example, describes the rising frustration among CIA operatives with the level of cooperation they were getting from a suspected top Al Qaeda operative named Abu Zubaydah.

"The interrogation team is certain that he has additional information that he refuses to divulge," including potential plots against the United States, a Justice Department official wrote.

Interrogators complained that Zubaydah, accused of being a key facilitator for the terrorist network, had become accustomed to the methods used against him, and they sought permission to move to "an increased pressure phase."

Zubaydah eventually was subjected to a battery of interrogation methods, including sleep deprivation, being forced into a cramped box and the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding.

The documents do not provide details on the results of the methods. Bush and U.S. intelligence officials have said that Zubaydah subsequently provided crucial intelligence that allowed the CIA to capture other Al Qaeda operatives -- including self-proclaimed Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed -- and disrupt a number of plots.

Current and former U.S. intelligence officials said the CIA's cables on Zubaydah and other prisoners make a compelling case for restoring the agency's ability to use certain coercive interrogation methods, even if the agency is permanently barred from the most severe techniques, such as waterboarding.
 

Former CIA Director Michael V. Hayden said that releasing the memos "moots the study that the president directed because it will take these techniques off the table because our enemy will know all our approaches." Hayden and others also questioned the purpose of continuing to examine the effectiveness of the CIA program if there is no prospect that even the least severe of the methods could be restored.

Basically, he blew the bluff. He let the cat out of the bag. Now all our enemies and future enemies know that they have nothing to fear.
 
I am sorry but all you people talking about souring our victory by torture and lowering our own morals are idiots. I went through worse treatment by our own goverment in SERE school and I am fine. What it comes down to is this. We have a suspect who we caught in Iraq. We think he knows about the people setting up IEDs that are killing soldiers. Do you want to be the person who does what is necessary to get the name that leads to the stopping of a cell or do you want to be the one who goes to the wifes home to tell her that her husband isnt coming home and she has to raise her kids on her own. I have had to do that and I know what way I would decide.
 
I'm asking you for a shred of evidence for your ridiculous claim.



This is completely impossible. The CIA's entire purpose in drafting these memos is to put everything into them so that they can cover their ass and put the blame on the OLC if they need to. There is no way on earth that the Obama administration is going to conspire with the Bush administration to cover up this stuff.

I dunno. I've searched for too long and found nothing but speculative articles and relentless promotions for books. Most common was The Nazi Hydra In America. I have no idea where I got this idea from then but I could have sworn it seemed like solid info. Guess I was just wrong. Maybe I heard it from a relative or something and put too much trust in it I think.

I apologize.

I think that Bush and Obama are buddy buddy. Do you think Cheney and Bush are truly mad at each other right now or they are just pretending? Or was that just media B.S.
 
I am sorry but all you people talking about souring our victory by torture and lowering our own morals are idiots. I went through worse treatment by our own goverment in SERE school and I am fine. What it comes down to is this. We have a suspect who we caught in Iraq. We think he knows about the people setting up IEDs that are killing soldiers. Do you want to be the person who does what is necessary to get the name that leads to the stopping of a cell or do you want to be the one who goes to the wifes home to tell her that her husband isnt coming home and she has to raise her kids on her own. I have had to do that and I know what way I would decide.

Torture doesn't work. If you were really in the business you would know that.
 
I disagree. It seems these techniques may have played a vital role in disassembling Al-Queda... Breaking the unbreakable... I also doubt that the militants had any idea what was happening to these 14 "high value" assets in the most controlled human environment in perhaps the entire world. Of course, now that the Idiot in Chief released the memo...


The "successful" examples of torture which were prominently publicized by the Bush administration, turned out to be fiction. But many servicemen risked their lives discovering they were fiction. Whatever AlQaeda are, they are not ******s, and they will not give up their comrades just because you set their feet on fire.
 
I love watching people apologize for the torture that went on. First they claimed no torture was happening. Then they claimed that the torture that was happening was not violating international law so it was okay. Now that big organizations are slamming the U.S. government for torturing people the usual apologists are coming forth to now minimize the events that took place in the torture sessions.

Unbelievable. This is exactly why I say that there is no point in believing U.S. propaganda anymore. Its own people have sold out.
 
They can say whatever the hell they want but that wont stop us from severing diplomatic ties with them or worse. I don't know how you can compare "selling guns" to trying to kill thousands of civilians. 9/11 was interpreted as a declaration of war by Al-queda.

Repeat after me: "War is hell."

But look at what is going on in Mexico today. Innocent people are almost getting killed everyday in the drug war. Entire towns have to be taken over by the military because the police is either bought by the drug cartels or not able to fight them. It is also talk about entire states controlled by the drug cartel. The drug cartels have also bought many police officers and government officials in very high places. So just like 9/11 you can talk about a war and a national emergency.

Remember also that not only people high up that was caught in Afghanistan and tortured but also support people like for example chauffeurs to the leadership. The bush regime and CIA probably wouldn’t have any objection to capturing and torturing a gun seller caught in Afganisthan suspected of selling guns and also having massive contact and knowledge about Al queda. So yes having an American tortured in Mexico because he was suspected of selling guns and having contact with the drug cartel, is just the time of grey areas the CIA use of torture can create.
 
What, you mean like TWO babies? Shiiiiiit.... :lol:

In the classical problem, everything is a certainty by a matter of definition. However, if things were changed from certainties to possibilities then things get fuzzier. Actual probabilities become to the fore
 
The answer is OBVIOUS unless you are attempting to be obtuse and avoid REALITY, honesty and intellectual thinking; the infant child is an innocent and has nothing to do with what occurred, the terrorist isn't innocent and was captured trying to kill troops or innocents.
What an absurd game you play, but typical from those who want to avoid substantive intellectually honest debate and instead enter into the never ending circle of absurdity.
LOL!
I really wasn't trying to whoosh anyone.
Sorry that happened.
I wrote clearly enough. But I can't correct the reading.
 
No, I wouldn't. I'm not a Kantian consequentialista and since that situation would never present itself in reality, it's irrelevant.
As opposed the ubiquitous ticking time bomb scenario that's used to justify most any type of behavior?
 
I love watching people apologize for the torture that went on. First they claimed no torture was happening. Then they claimed that the torture that was happening was not violating international law so it was okay. Now that big organizations are slamming the U.S. government for torturing people the usual apologists are coming forth to now minimize the events that took place in the torture sessions.

Unbelievable. This is exactly why I say that there is no point in believing U.S. propaganda anymore. Its own people have sold out.

To which I would reply that this wasn't torture, hence our troops receive resistance training to these techniques in SERE school. I'm also sorry that you are unable to listen to reason and appreciate the unique challenge posed by this decentralized, transnational, religiously/ideologically hardened, terrorist organization.

As it stands, these practices are not illegal under international or domestic law. The CIA works at the edge of the law. It's their job to defend our country. The only way to curb it permanently would be to tighten the law, preferably internationally so that it's reciprocated by our potential adversaries.
 
....or do you want to be the one who goes to the wifes home to tell her that her husband isnt coming home and she has to raise her kids on her own. I have had to do that and I know what way I would decide.

They will go to the wives and children at home and say the following: “we're sorry to inform you that your husband died from a terrorist attack we didn't know about because we are holding ourselves to a standard our enemies refuse to seek.”

“However, we can all hold our heads high because your husband died knowing that we are better than our enemies and although we failed to save his life, we did stick to a higher moral standard in the world and set ourselves up as an example.”

Sound idiotic? You bet it does, and that is the argument Liberals and Leftists throughout the world are making. Our enemies are laughing at us and happy to see Liberals desperately make it will be easier for them to conduct the next attack.

:2wave:
 
Torture doesn't work. If you were really in the business you would know that.

What fascinating denial! Are you in the business? Because from what I have read, the people in the business say that they do indeed work and stopped other potential attacks.

:roll:
 
They will go to the wives and children at home and say the following: “we're sorry to inform you that your husband died from a terrorist attack we didn't know about because we are holding ourselves to a standard our enemies refuse to seek.”

“However, we can all hold our heads high because your husband died knowing that we are better than our enemies and although we failed to save his life, we did stick to a higher moral standard in the world and set ourselves up as an example.”

Sound idiotic? You bet it does, and that is the argument Liberals and Leftists throughout the world are making. Our enemies are laughing at us and happy to see Liberals desperately make it will be easier for them to conduct the next attack.

:2wave:

blah blah blah. Why don't you just engage in debate like a normal person instead of trying to make your point through Socratic Irony?
 
LOL!
I really wasn't trying to whoosh anyone.
Sorry that happened.
I wrote clearly enough. But I can't correct the reading.

I guess it was your vast intellectual prowess which makes your witty prose beyond my simplistic ability to read and comprehend. :cool:
 
I love watching people apologize for the torture that went on. First they claimed no torture was happening. Then they claimed that the torture that was happening was not violating international law so it was okay. Now that big organizations are slamming the U.S. government for torturing people the usual apologists are coming forth to now minimize the events that took place in the torture sessions.

Unbelievable. This is exactly why I say that there is no point in believing U.S. propaganda anymore. Its own people have sold out.

I love watching people make up arguments to support their inane and naive points of view.

The only ones who are apologizing for what went on are the empty headed Liberal loons in the Democrat party that now infest our Government.

The only thing more laughable about this idiotic notion about our torturing terrorists is the equally idiotic notion that coddling them will somehow get them to talk.

I am feeling so much safer now that the secrets are all out for the terrorists and our enemies to see that they will have Constitutional rights and be coddled should they murder more of our citizens.

Carry on. :roll:
 
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