• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obama Rules Out Charging C.I.A. Agents in Interrogations

Wessexman said:
They are not tortured by Americans though or the American gov't. One must not stoop to the base level of an enemy, it is still a stain on one's honour.
Click to expand...

Again, I don't think this qualifies as torture.

I very much doubt that. The CIA are hardly the most reliable and trustworthy of organisations. Remember the WMD?
Click to expand...

The CIA didn't lie to the the Bush administration about Iraq. That was the result of misinterpretation, deliberate or not, of intelligence data and an over-reaction prompted by 9/11.

Torture is rarely required or easily useable, these 24 situations are rare if not basically non-existent in the real world. It is a stain on the honour of these individuals and on the nations involved to stoop to such levels.
Click to expand...

A May 30, 2005, memo says that before the harsher methods were used on top al-Qaida detainee Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, he refused to answer questions about pending plots against the United States.
"Soon, you will know," he told them, according to the memo.
It says the interrogations later extracted details of a plot called the "second wave" to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into a building in Los Angeles.
Click to expand...

Obama: No charges for harsh CIA interrogation

And by the way, the reason nobody's prosecuting the Bush administration or CIA officials isn't to protect them, it's because they know they will lose.
 
BulletWounD said:
Again, I don't think this qualifies as torture.
Click to expand...
I believe it is the same thing as Chinese water torture, it certainly counts.

The CIA didn't lie to the the Bush administration about Iraq. That was the result of misinterpretation, deliberate or not, of intelligence data and an over-reaction prompted by 9/11.
Click to expand...
The CIA did not lie perhaps which makes it worse, they just ****ed up.


And by the way, the reason nobody's prosecuting the Bush administration or CIA officials isn't to protect them, it's because they know they will lose.
Click to expand...
I doubt that but I'm not sure prosecutions are necessary, just a change in tactics and a return to honour. That is what I want for Britain.
 
Wessexman said:
I believe it is the same thing as Chinese water torture, it certainly counts.
Click to expand...

I didn't see anything about Chinese water torture in there and the methods were designed to extract information not drive people insane which would be counter-productive.

The CIA did not lie perhaps which makes it worse, they just ****ed up.
Click to expand...

A Spy Speaks Out - CBS News

I doubt that but I'm not sure prosecutions are necessary, just a change in tactics and a return to honour. That is what I want for Britain.
Click to expand...

Understandable.
 
Last edited:
BulletWounD said:
I didn't see anything about Chinese water torture in there and the methods were designed to extract information not drive people insane which would be counter-productive.
Click to expand...
I may be wrong but I think waterboarding is Chinese water torture.

A Spy Speaks Out - CBS News
Click to expand...
I don't doubt the truth of a lot of that, but I doubt also doubt the CIA can be completely absolved of blame.
 
Last edited:
Wessexman said:
I may be wrong but I think waterboarding is Chinese water torture.
Click to expand...

Nope. "Chinese water torture" is a mythical form of torture which has never really been used.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture]Chinese water torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

If you want to see what they really used in ancient China, see this:

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_slicing]Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Wessexman said:
I would never countenance torture because it would be stooping to the level of your enemy and would, in my opinion, sour any victory. It also sets a dangerous precedent.
Click to expand...

One could only wish our enemies would stoop to OUR level and only use water boarding. Unfortunately they are not so inclined and prefer REAL torture like sawing the heads off their victims. Or attaching electric wires to their genitals and electrifying them. One only need remember how Nazi’s treated their prisoners, how the Chinese treated our troops in Korea, how the North Koreans and Viet Cong treated our troops and how the terrorists always treat theirs.

Yes, one has to be living in a parallel universe to think that OUR actions will somehow cause the enemy to mirror them; one could only hope they would indeed treat our soldiers and citizens in the same way, trying to ensure they are well taken care of, trying to ensure they have constitutional rights and if tortured, their own Governments would try to try their leaders for war crimes.

The notion that we have now somehow lowered the bar requires the willing suspension of disbelief or profound historical ignorance.

I need to get HIP waders on when we discuss this crapola, it’s getting DEEP in here.
 
Truth Detector said:
One could only wish our enemies would stoop to OUR level and only use water boarding. Unfortunately they are not so inclined and prefer REAL torture like sawing the heads off their victims. Or attaching electric wires to their genitals and electrifying them. One only need remember how Nazi’s treated their prisoners, how the Chinese treated our troops in Korea, how the North Koreans and Viet Cong treated our troops and how the terrorists always treat theirs.

Yes, one has to be living in a parallel universe to think that OUR actions will somehow cause the enemy to mirror them; one could only hope they would indeed treat our soldiers and citizens in the same way, trying to ensure they are well taken care of, trying to ensure they have constitutional rights and if tortured, their own Governments would try to try their leaders for war crimes.

The notion that we have now somehow lowered the bar requires the willing suspension of disbelief or profound historical ignorance.

I need to get HIP waders on when we discuss this crapola, it’s getting DEEP in here.
Click to expand...
Who said you lowered the bar? I have no doubt AG etc were using worse methods before you did. I'm however talking about the honour and chivalry of America and other Western nations which something very different. Two wrongs don't make a right as the old saying accurately puts it.

Acting always honourably and chivalrously cannot hurt in sending a message to your enemies but most importantly it maintains the freedom and dignity of our nations and makes victory that much sweeter.
 
BulletWounD said:
The world of intelligence gathering is not all roses you know. In Russia they'd shove a soldering iron up your butt and turn it on. In China they'd beat you with electric batons.

If you knew that a guy was a terrorist with information on an imminent terrorist attack and you only have 48 hours to get it out of him before the attack goes forward, what are you going to do? Give him a box of chocolates?

Waterboarding isn't exactly "humane" but neither is killing 3000 people. It could have been a lot worse. War is hell.
Click to expand...

I agree with you and I'm not saying that war is roses and no one gets tortured or interrogated. What I'm saying is that the U.S. should stop projecting this image of decency to the world when it engages in wartime tactics that are not decent. I inherently understand the realities of living in an anarchy of states in the world, so I'm not surprised or shocked that torture happens.

All I'm rebelling against is the propaganda that the U.S. is such a peacekeeping force, representing the law, justice, liberty, etc. It generally only gets involved in campaigns that serve its interests, and the rules against torture that it claims to uphold are easily discarded when it suits its interests.

That is all. If you're a wolf, just admit you're a wolf. Don't pretend to be anything else.
 
Orius said:
I agree with you and I'm not saying that war is roses and no one gets tortured or interrogated. What I'm saying is that the U.S. should stop projecting this image of decency to the world when it engages in wartime tactics that are not decent. I inherently understand the realities of living in an anarchy of states in the world, so I'm not surprised or shocked that torture happens.
Click to expand...

I don't think this qualifies as torture. Have you read the memo? It's pretty tame and the psychological and physical well-being of the detainees was monitored by medical professionals.

All I'm rebelling against is the propaganda that the U.S. is such a peacekeeping force, representing the law, justice, liberty, etc. It generally only gets involved in campaigns that serve its interests, and the rules against torture that it claims to uphold are easily discarded when it suits its interests.

That is all. If you're a wolf, just admit you're a wolf. Don't pretend to be anything else.
Click to expand...

I find this pretty insulting. War itself is 180 degrees juxtaposed to our ideals. Yet:

1. Sun Tzu said: The art of war is of vital importance
to the State.

2. It is a matter of life and death, a road either
to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry
which can on no account be neglected.
Click to expand...

And this will not change in the foreseeable future.
 
BulletWounD said:
I don't think this qualifies as torture. Have you read the memo? It's pretty tame and the psychological and physical well-being of the detainees was monitored by medical professionals.



I find this pretty insulting. War itself is 180 degrees juxtaposed to our ideals. Yet:



And this will not change in the foreseeable future.
Click to expand...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-9x-8ys7t0"]YouTube - WWII - The Life of Jews in Theresienstadt Concentration Camp 1/2 (1944)[/ame]

Did you know that a lot of Nazi's defected straight into our government in conclusion of the war?
 
BulletWounD said:
I don't think this qualifies as torture. Have you read the memo? It's pretty tame and the psychological and physical well-being of the detainees was monitored by medical professionals.
Click to expand...
As far as I can see it is is pretty extreme and creates great distress, it was used by Pol Pot's regime for instance. I don't think the presence of doctors necessarily removes a lot of the distressing aspects of it.

These individuals could only put up with mere seconds of it, if I recall correctly.
 
Wessexman said:
As far as I can see it is is pretty extreme and creates great distress, it was used by Pol Pot's regime for instance. I don't think the presence of doctors necessarily removes a lot of the distressing aspects of it.

These individuals could only put up with mere seconds of it, if I recall correctly.
Click to expand...

Read the memos. I seriously doubt Pol Pot, whose regime would suck the brains out of living people's heads and eat them, exercised the same level of care.
 
BulletWounD said:
Why are you comparing a propaganda film produced for public consumption to a Top Secret memo that was never meant to be released?
Click to expand...

Crap purposely put out to make it look good is still crap. You don't think this is a fallback? Something planned to be released long ago if the heat got too bad in an attempt to sugar coat it. That's what is seems like to me.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
So you are saying after ww2 we didn't get a little bit of Nazi leadership?
Click to expand...

I'm asking you for a shred of evidence for your ridiculous claim.

dirtpoorchris said:
Crap purposely put out to make it look good is still crap. You don't think this is a fallback? Something planned to be released long ago if the heat got too bad in an attempt to sugar coat it. That's what is seems like to me.
Click to expand...

This is completely impossible. The CIA's entire purpose in drafting these memos is to put everything into them so that they can cover their ass and put the blame on the OLC if they need to. There is no way on earth that the Obama administration is going to conspire with the Bush administration to cover up this stuff.
 
Since 2006, all CIA and military interrogators have been trained at Fort Huachuca in Arizona. The techniques now used by US personel are all benign and passive.

However, it is not clear whether the CIA has ceased renditions. Thirteen nations have been positively identified as receiving rendered prisoners on behalf of the CIA. Many of these nations (ie. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Syria, Egypt, Kyrzigstan) are notorious for their brutal interrogation methods.
 
Wessexman said:
Acting always honourably and chivalrously cannot hurt in sending a message to your enemies but most importantly it maintains the freedom and dignity of our nations and makes victory that much sweeter.
Click to expand...

You are kidding right? The ONLY message we are currently sending to our enemies is that it is okay to commit terrorist acts on our people and we will not only try to placate you if we catch you, but hand you rights you never had and then attempt to impugn our own Government for any grievance you have.

We are telling our enemies that we are pushovers who don't have the spine to do what it takes and naively think that how we treat you may possibly change your behavior towards us.

The laughter you hear are the enemies of freedom and peace watching us tear at each other over perceived acts of torture. They laugh at us for being soft, weak and for being so damned stupid that we want to prosecute our own people for an act like water boarding desperate murdering terrorists who wouldn't have a second thought about sawing your head from your torso as you screamed for mercy.

Good lord, what level of denial and naïveté' does it take to have such views? I want everyone with the views you share to think about what you believed when the next horrible terrorist event occurs. But it’s okay, you can tell their wives or fathers or children that their moms, dads or kids could die with the knowledge that we didn’t torture anyone and can hold our heads high.

:roll:
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Did you know that a lot of Nazi's defected straight into our government in conclusion of the war?
Click to expand...

Did you know that you’re suffering from a lack of facts? Did you know that many of the scientists we brought into the US to assist in our rocket programs were not Nazis? Did you know that one could actually be a German and NOT be a Nazi? Did you think that we should not bring these scientists in to assist us in a race against the Communists and that we just allow the Communists to take over Europe? Do you think that Communist Russia didn't want to take over Europe? Do you think they didn’t want to influence events in the ME? Did you think they didn’t want to influence South America?

Do you somehow THINK that perhaps your desperate anti-America BS doesn't make a lot of sense? Do you THINK at all?
 
Nothing gives you more confidence then a government more concerned about how your enemies feel about things then the citizens it supposed to protect.
 
Truth Detector said:
You are kidding right? The ONLY message we are currently sending to our enemies is that it is okay to commit terrorist acts on our people and we will not only try to placate you if we catch you, but hand you rights you never had and then attempt to impugn our own Government for any grievance you have.
Click to expand...
Exactly how honourably but firmly dealing with detainees is saying it is okay to commit terrorist acts is beyond me.

We are telling our enemies that we are pushovers who don't have the spine to do what it takes and naively think that how we treat you may possibly change your behavior towards us.
Click to expand...
The fact one does not torture, apart from telling them one is honourable, does not imply you are a pushover at all.

The laughter you hear are the enemies of freedom and peace watching us tear at each other over perceived acts of torture. They laugh at us for being soft, weak and for being so damned stupid that we want to prosecute our own people for an act like water boarding desperate murdering terrorists who wouldn't have a second thought about sawing your head from your torso as you screamed for mercy.
Click to expand...
No the laugheter is these people realising they have made many sink to such low depths and become like them.

Good lord, what level of denial and naïveté' does it take to have such views? I want everyone with the views you share to think about what you believed when the next horrible terrorist event occurs. But it’s okay, you can tell their wives or fathers or children that their moms, dads or kids could die with the knowledge that we didn’t torture anyone and can hold our heads high.
Click to expand...
Except that this isn't 24 and such techniques are of limited use.

I want everyone with views like you to think about what you have become, to think of how low you have sunk and to what depths you have tarnhised any sense of victory and honour and exactly wherre this dark path is going to lead.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom