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Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

talloulou said:
The country has been existing in a state of relative anarchy since 1991. Holding the "government" accountable is laughable. When the area fell into anarchy the international community's response was to take advantage of the loose restrictions and lack of government and use the coast as a dumping ground for toxic waste.

Bombing the crap out of these people and claiming their government should have controlled them when there's been no government and basic anarchy for 20 years is pretty stupid.

We need to nation build. Which I know, folks hate. We need to support the new government, help it maintain stability so some law and order can begin to reign as well as create new means of existence for the people. Young men who can no longer survive as their ancestors did -fishing- need other options and opportunities. We need to rebuild a Somalia state. Anything short of that will be disastrous and lead to pointless bloodshed.
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Westerners have no business rebuilding an African state, especially an Islamic one haha. We would insist Democracy, and we would see the emergence of an Islamic Theocracy and we would complain.

We believe in State over Religion.
They believe in Religion over State.
 
talloulou said:
Well when the alternative is starving to death in dying fishing villages, relying on foreign aid for food, and feeling angry about why there's no fish and no stable government I say yeah. Their spirit is admirable. They have little options and the fact that they've been successful with this pirate business, creating boomtowns even, is rather awe inspiring. It's not as if these folks haven't appealed to the UN about their over fished waters and toxic dumping in their sees as well as a lack of any government to control what they see as "their" waters and livelihood. They could just sit around powerless with their thumbs up their collective asses relying solely on the foreign food aid. Instead they've gotten pissed, risen up, and raised holy hell on the high seas. So yes, it is a bit hard not to root for them. It is impossible for me to read about these pirates and not have some degree of awe and respect for their refusal to just roll over and play dead. Desperate peoples and desperate times call for desperate measures. Think about it. What are a young Somalian man's options? Fishing is no longer an adequate means of survival and there is virtually nothing else to do. I have little doubt were I in their place I'd either be a pirate or marry one. Piracy is the only avenue which has gotten many of those people not only a means of survival but an actual taste of the high life to boot.
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You did know the last ship was ship carrying African aid right?

The Associated Press: Somali pirates a far cry from buccaneers of old
Attacks in the Gulf of Aden and along Somalia's coast have risen dramatically, from 41 in 2007 to 111 in 2008, according to the International Maritime Bureau. Since January, pirates have staged at least 66 assaults and currently hold more than a dozen ships and more than 200 foreign crew members.

According to the House memo, pirates operating off Somalia earned $30 million in ransom through the seizure of 42 vessels in 2008. Other estimates put the figure at $80 million.

The memo cited one captured pirate as saying pirates only take 30 percent of ransoms — on average $1 million to $2 million per boat.

Twenty percent goes to group bosses, 30 percent is spent on bribing local officials, and 20 percent goes for capital investment like guns, ammunition, fuel, food, cigarettes. (Cuss said pirates were becoming more sophisticated and in the last two months have, for the first time, begun launching nighttime attacks, possibly indicating pirates have obtained night-vision goggles).
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GAROWE, Somalia (Reuters) - Yassin Dheere is a 39-year-old Somali who took to piracy five years ago and has made a fortune from the mushrooming business.

I'm a successful Somali pirate | Top News | Reuters

A hulk of a man, Dheere towered over his bodyguards as he spoke to Reuters in Garowe, capital of the northern Puntland province.

Dressed in expensive-looking traditional robes, he chewed khat leaves and stroked an AK-47 rifle as he told his story, starting with his birth in a notorious pirates' haven on the coast.
On page 3

"If the U.N. gives approval to fight pirates on land, that will only lead to death of innocent Somalis. They cannot differentiate us from ordinary Somalis, we dress alike. Piracy will not stop unless we get a government."
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talloulou said:
What the hell do you want him to say? Should he go on tv and make retarded threats? Should he just offer up some empty meaningless platitudes to appease people? Or should he just start bombing the crap out of these people?

Personally I hope he comes out and says we need to nation build in Somalia. Continue our efforts in supporting their new government so the government becomes strong enough to start policing their own. In the meantime maintain a heavy naval presence on the horn. That's what he should say, what we should do, but also what folks don't seem to want to hear so he's probably playing his cards right by keeping quiet.
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I've said it before, the President is a symbol. I don't expect him to start dropping bombs, but I do expect as a matter of public persona, the American leader to at least sit his ass in front of a camera for 30 seconds and say targetting American ships will not be tolerated. Period. He needs to lead, dammit. Sometimes all leadership has to be is just speaking to the nation and/or the world with a simple platitude. We're not a nation of p*ssies.

eta: I actually like Hillary Clinton (it took a while, but I like her), but that video of her laughing about pirating is gross. It's not friggen funny at this point.
 
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FOXNews.com - Booming Pirate Economy Transforms Somali Villages - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News

And in an impoverished country where every public institution has crumbled, they have become heroes in the steamy coastal dens they operate from because they are the only real business in town.

"The pirates depend on us, and we benefit from them," said Sahra Sheik Dahir, a shop owner in Haradhere, the nearest village to where a hijacked Saudi Arabian supertanker carrying $100 million in crude was anchored Wednesday.

These boomtowns are all the more shocking in light of Somalia's violence and poverty: Radical Islamists control most of the country's south, meting out lashings and stonings for accused criminals. There has been no effective central government in nearly 20 years, plunging this arid African country into chaos.

Life expectancy is just 46 years; a quarter of children die before they reach 5.

But in northern coastal towns like Haradhere, Eyl and Bossaso, the pirate economy is thriving thanks to the money pouring in from pirate ransoms that have reached $30 million this year alone.
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In Haradhere, residents came out in droves to celebrate as the looming oil ship came into focus this week off the country's lawless coast. Businessmen started gathering cigarettes, food and cold glass bottles of orange soda, setting up small kiosks for the pirates who come to shore to re-supply almost daily.

Dahir said she is so confident in the pirates, she instituted a layaway plan just for them.

"They always take things without paying and we put them into the book of debts," she told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. "Later, when they get the ransom money, they pay us a lot."

For Somalis, the simple fact that pirates offer jobs is enough to gain their esteem, even as hostages languish on ships for months. The population makes sure the pirates are well-stocked in qat, a popular narcotic leaf, and offer support from the ground even as the international community tries to quash them.
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Seems to me like the opinions of non-Pirate Somalis trumps that of anybody here.
 
StandUpChuck said:
I've said it before, the President is a symbol. I don't expect him to start dropping bombs, but I do expect as a matter of public persona, the American leader to at least sit his ass in front of a camera for 30 seconds and say targetting American ships will not be tolerated. Period. He needs to lead, dammit. Sometimes all leadership has to be is just speaking to the nation and/or the world with a simple platitude. We're not a nation of p*ssies.

eta: I actually like Hillary Clinton (it took a while, but I like her), but that video of her laughing about pirating is gross. It's not friggen funny at this point.
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At this rate such a statement would be laughable. They have a US ship now. Say Obama goes on Leno to address the nation and says, "This will NOT be tolerated, " and then the pirates take another ship tomorrow? He will look like a fool. The truth is they have no idea how to deal with this situation because the pirates at this point are mostly young men, many on drugs, who are simply choosing between having nothing and raiding ships for ransom. They exist in a state of lawlessness. Without law and order and some stability in the country there's nothing to do. These young men are willing to risk their lives and will continue to do so until they're given some other option or purpose for existing. We can't attack them on land because they look like every other Somalian. It is impossible to sort them out from the regular Somalians who are not pirates. We can not adequately patrol the horn because the coast is HUGE. We can not just fire away at the pirates on the seas while they hold hostages.

Having Obama go on tv to say, "Stop it, stop it right now," would be looney.
 
StandUpChuck said:
I've said it before, the President is a symbol. I don't expect him to start dropping bombs, but I do expect as a matter of public persona, the American leader to at least sit his ass in front of a camera for 30 seconds and say targetting American ships will not be tolerated. Period. He needs to lead, dammit. Sometimes all leadership has to be is just speaking to the nation and/or the world with a simple platitude. We're not a nation of p*ssies.

eta: I actually like Hillary Clinton (it took a while, but I like her), but that video of her laughing about pirating is gross. It's not friggen funny at this point.
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Pirates put Obama in 21st-century bind - Politics- msnbc.com

Thursday's decision to turn to FBI hostage negotiators showed Obama reaching for all of his limited options in the high-seas hostage drama. Negotiators in the United States were communicating with the pirates through a Navy destroyer that shadowed the small lifeboat where four pirates held American cargo ship captain Richard Phillips.

The president wasn't saying a word about the situation in public, though he dispatched aides to reassure the nation that their government was pressing to free Phillips.
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.....just saying. If he dropped a few boots on the ship we'd see you complaining about Obama being a warmonger.
 
talloulou said:
What the hell do you want him to say? Should he go on tv and make retarded threats? Should he just offer up some empty meaningless platitudes to appease people? Or should he just start bombing the crap out of these people?

Personally I hope he comes out and says we need to nation build in Somalia. Continue our efforts in supporting their new government so the government becomes strong enough to start policing their own. In the meantime maintain a heavy naval presence on the horn. That's what he should say, what we should do, but also what folks don't seem to want to hear so he's probably playing his cards right by keeping quiet.
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He needs to articulate the following:
  1. Targeting/Kidnapping/Assaulting US citizens will not stand.
  2. The rights of ships to freely navigate the waters off Somalia will be respected.
  3. The US will respond to piracy militarily. Diplomacy is not an option.
  4. No ransom will be paid to any pirate for any reason.
  5. Any Somali captured while engaged in an act of piracy will be executed.
  6. Foreign aid to Somalia is suspended until the pirate menace is ended.
 
"If the U.N. gives approval to fight pirates on land, that will only lead to death of innocent Somalis. They cannot differentiate us from ordinary Somalis, we dress alike. Piracy will not stop unless we get a government."
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Absolutely correct.
 
talloulou said:
"If the U.N. gives approval to fight pirates on land, that will only lead to death of innocent Somalis. They cannot differentiate us from ordinary Somalis, we dress alike. Piracy will not stop unless we get a government."
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Absolutely correct.
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Only so far.

Governments are not gifted from without. They are created by a people from within.

If the Somalis want a government, they need to get about forming one. Waiting for someone else to build it for them is stupid, silly, and suicidal.
 
celticlord said:
He needs to articulate the following:
  1. Targeting/Kidnapping/Assaulting US citizens will not stand.
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  1. Except it's happening right now and we've been unsuccessful in doing anything about it. So empty platitude if Obama were to state it.

    [*]The rights of ships to freely navigate the waters off Somalia will be respected.
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    bwahahahahaha

    Or what?

    When will it be respected. At this point it's ridiculously clear that not only is it not respected it's been hindered and we haven't a clue what to do about it.

    [*]The US will respond to piracy militarily. Diplomacy is not an option.
    [*]No ransom will be paid to any pirate for any reason.
    [*]Any Somali captured while engaged in an act of piracy will be executed.
    [*]Foreign aid to Somalia is suspended until the pirate menace is ended.
    Click to expand...

Foreign aid hasn't done squat to help Somalia. The anarchy is what needs to be dealt with. We need to support the new government and help them bring stability to the region. We need to support them in bringing 20 years of anarchy under control and asserting some law and order. The pirates don't give a crap if we withdrawal foreign aid. They are collecting ransoms and doing better now than they ever did with aid! That's the whole point.

As far as militarily I think it would be disastrous for the government to start blowing the pirates along with their hostages out of the water. Then we loose the cargo, the ships, and the hostages.
 
talloulou said:
Except it's happening right now and we've been unsuccessful in doing anything about it. So empty platitude if Obama were to state it.
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Perhaps if he says it...but that says more about the man than the policy.

talloulou said:
bwahahahahaha

Or what?

When will it be respected. At this point it's ridiculously clear that not only is it not respected it's been hindered and we haven't a clue what to do about it.
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Expect military response: Guns, bombs, missiles, napalm, and other fun ways for Somalis to die screaming in agony.

talloulou said:
Foreign aid hasn't done squat to help Somalia. The anarchy is what needs to be dealt with. We need to support the new government and help them bring stability to the region. We need to support them in bringing 20 years of anarchy under control and asserting some law and order. The pirates don't give a crap if we withdrawal foreign aid. They are collecting ransoms and doing better now than they ever did with aid! That's the whole point.
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Also the point for executing pirates. Dead men don't get to keep the money.

talloulou said:
As far as militarily I think it would be disastrous for the government to start blowing the pirates along with their hostages out of the water. Then we loose the cargo, the ships, and the hostages.
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That's why it's a job for the SEAL teams, Delta Force, Marines, and other elite troops; develop melee tactics for retaking a ship and put them to use.
 
celticlord said:
That's why it's a job for the SEAL teams, Delta Force, Marines, and other elite troops; develop melee tactics for retaking a ship and put them to use.
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If that's the direction Obama was considering taking I wouldn't expect to see him on TV discussing it, would you?

Hopefully if they use such tactics they are successful and don't become the basis for another blockbuster movie.

But yeah, why in the world would you want him going on tv to announce he's going to send in some special forces for melee tactics?
 
celticlord said:
If the Somalis want a government, they need to get about forming one. Waiting for someone else to build it for them is stupid, silly, and suicidal.
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Excuse me?
Somalis had a Government. One they chose for themselves
They had a Islamic Government who controlled the country and had the support of the people.

US and Ethiopia hated it and removed it for no reason other than their own selfish reasons - Allowing pirates to emerge again.
 
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talloulou said:
If that's the direction Obama was considering taking I wouldn't expect to see him on TV discussing it, would you?

Hopefully if they use such tactics they are successful and don't become the basis for another blockbuster movie.

But yeah, why in the world would you want him going on tv to announce he's going to send in some special forces for melee tactics?
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Simple. Give a man something to be alert for and on the lookout against and he won't do a whole lot of things like sleeping.

Knowing the what but not the when is a great way to mess with someone's head.
 
Laila said:
Excuse me?
Somalis had a Government. One they chose for themselves
They had a Islamic Government who controlled the country and had the support of the people.

US and Ethiopia hated it and removed it for no reason other than their own selfish reasons - Allowing pirates to emerge again.
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So let the Somalis build another government. Who knows, maybe this time they'll get it right.
 
celticlord said:
So let the Somalis build another government. Who knows, maybe this time they'll get it right.
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Yeah ... thanks to Ethiopia and US's oh-so wonderful plan, Somalia is under Sharia law when previously under the old Islamic Government, it was not and pirating has increased practically 100%.
Another mission accomplished i see ..... :roll:

Pirating will not stop without a stable Somalia.
 
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celticlord said:
Simple. Give a man something to be alert for and on the lookout against and he won't do a whole lot of things like sleeping.

Knowing the what but not the when is a great way to mess with someone's head.
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Call them what you want, the pirates are about as far from cowardly as one can get. I doubt they will be scared into quitting such a lucrative career by the President going on tv and spouting off his mouth. Now, we and other nations may have success with actions. But speeches where we tell them to stop or else? Pointless. The only effect an Obama speech would have is forcing the US into action before they're ready, before it's been well thought out, before an adequate and intelligent plan has been drafted in order to save face and not look stupid because the Prez of the US told them "or else" and he can't have his bluff called.
 
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talloulou said:
Call them what you want, the pirates are about as far from cowardly as one can get. I doubt they will be scared into quitting such a lucrative career by the President going on tv and spouting off his mouth. Now, we and other nations may have success with actions. But speeches where we tell them to stop or else? Pointless. The only effect an Obama speech would have is forcing the US into action before they're ready, before it's been well thought out, before an adequate and intelligent plan has been drafted in order to save face and not look stupid because the Prez of the US told them "or else" and he can't have his bluff called.
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Ah....I see your error now.

Of course Dear Leader won't prevail merely by stating these things. He needs to state these things, and then he needs to back them up by force of arms. It is not a threat he needs to make, but a promise--only this one he needs to actually keep (hmmm....yeah, I do see the difficulty of Dear Leader being able to actually execute this policy).

No, pirates will not be scared off by mere words. Mere casualties, preferably of a gruesome and gory variety, on the other hand, are likely to be somewhat more persuasive.

The only thing that will stop pirates is force of arms. To pretend anything else will work is foolish and counter-productive.
 
celticlord said:
The only thing that will stop pirates is force of arms.
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No.
A strong Government with the support of the public can stop piracy.

A few bombs will not. Life is cheap in a country which has been in anarchy for over 24 years
 
Laila said:
Excuse me?
Somalis had a Government. One they chose for themselves
They had a Islamic Government who controlled the country and had the support of the people.

US and Ethiopia hated it and removed it for no reason other than their own selfish reasons - Allowing pirates to emerge again.
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Are you talking about the Islamic Courts Union? By which democratic election were they chosen by the people? My understanding of their rise was that it was entirely a military operation - no elections at all. Correct me if I am mistaken.
 
Laila said:
Yeah ... thanks to Ethiopia and US's oh-so wonderful plan, Somalia is under Sharia law when previously under the old Islamic Government, it was not and pirating has increased practically 100%.
Another mission accomplished i see ..... :roll:

Pirating will not stop without a stable Somalia.
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Piracy has been going on virtually non-stop for years. Sure, it HAS increased in recent months, but to say that the Islamic Courts UNion or anyone else has put a stop to it is like saying the Taliban put a stop to the opium trade (which it most certainly did not).
 
Reality check!

celticlord said:
He needs to articulate the following:
[*]Targeting/Kidnapping/Assaulting US citizens will not stand.
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In principle this "idea" is in effect. However in practise it can not be enforced in any way. American's have been held as hostages, targeted and kidnapped in many countries for years and the US did nothing under a Republican or Democratic administration. It is simply not practical to "defend" every US citizen travelling abroad in the way you expect it.

[*]The rights of ships to freely navigate the waters off Somalia will be respected.
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It is respected by everyone except the pirates. Back to square one.

[*]The US will respond to piracy militarily. Diplomacy is not an option.
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Respond to what and how? Nuke Somalia? Send in the troops? How realistic is that under the present US military and economic climate? You would need thousands of troops to do anything close to noticeable against these pirates. Like it or not, unless you are willing to kill everyone in villages and surrounding area, then you cant military stop the pirates.

[*]No ransom will be paid to any pirate for any reason.
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Not up to the US government. The US government can not tell private companies of other nations what they can and can not do. However in principle I agree, but it is not realistic under the present circumstances.

[*]Any Somali captured while engaged in an act of piracy will be executed.
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Not only against US law, but international law and human rights. We are not living in the 1700s any more.

[*]Foreign aid to Somalia is suspended until the pirate menace is ended.
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Unrealistic and out of proportions. What would it do? It would force more and more people into acts of piracy to survive. It would piss off the people in the country and drive them into the hands of radical islamists and Al Q. It would weaken the Western backed government and push the country yet again into utter chaos (right now it is semi chaos :) ), where the radical islamists will regain power and turn the country into another "Taliban inspired" Islamic "paradise" backed by Osama Bin Laden and Co.
 
ludahai said:
Piracy has been going on virtually non-stop for years. Sure, it HAS increased in recent months, but to say that the Islamic Courts UNion or anyone else has put a stop to it is like saying the Taliban put a stop to the opium trade (which it most certainly did not).
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Piracy has been going on for centuries. Somalia was not a "hot spot" until 5 or 10 years ago, but the area was used by pirates for many many decades. They came from Yemen and Somalia and even other African countries in the region. Zanzibar use to be a pirate haven after all (yes many centuries ago). Before that, places like of the coast of Nigeria, Java and Philippines were hot spots for decades during the 20th century and are still very active pirate wise.

And the Taliban did keep the opium trade in check and kept the production way down when compared to before them and to now. Granted they kept it down by executing people and driving the fear of god into the population but they did keep it down.
 
PeteEU said:
Piracy has been going on for centuries. Somalia was not a "hot spot" until 5 or 10 years ago, but the area was used by pirates for many many decades. They came from Yemen and Somalia and even other African countries in the region. Zanzibar use to be a pirate haven after all (yes many centuries ago). Before that, places like of the coast of Nigeria, Java and Philippines were hot spots for decades during the 20th century and are still very active pirate wise.
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How is any of this at odds with anything I have said? The Strait of Melaka has been the pirate hotspot for a long time. However, even that chokepoint in global trade is nothing compared to the area between the Mozambique Channel and Gulf of Aden over the past few years.

And the Taliban did keep the opium trade in check and kept the production way down when compared to before them and to now. Granted they kept it down by executing people and driving the fear of god into the population but they did keep it down.
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By stockpiling existing opium supplies and controlling the trade to maximize its own opium profits. Interesting how now the Taleban is using opium to fund itself. True colors?
 
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