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Pirates seize 10 Italians in U.S.-owned tugboat

danarhea

danarhea

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Pirates have now upped the ante. They have taken another US ship, and are holding a total of 16 crew hostage.

I don't know about anyone else, but to me, this is now an act of war. A few bombs on the nation that is harboring them is a good starter. Let's do that and see if the government cracks down on these vermin. If not, then keep bombing until they do.

The only way to defeat piracy is to make the cost to the nation harboring them much more expensive than the profit the pirates make. This strategy is called "Make pirate organizations another AIG, but with no bailout".

Article is here.
 
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danarhea said:
Pirates have now upped the ante. They have taken another US ship, and are holding a total of 16 crew hostage.

I don't know about anyone else, but to me, this is now an act of war. A few bombs on the nation that is harboring them is a good starter. Let's do that and see if the government cracks down on these vermin. If not, then keep bombing until they do.

The only way to defeat piracy is to make the cost to the nation harboring them much more expensive than the profit the pirates make. This strategy is called "Make pirate organizations another AIG, but with no bailout".

Article is here.
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The government there is not very strong, IIRC. They have little ability to control rampant gun use.

I say that ship crews should be armed.
 
The pirates are mostly Somalian and they have no real stable government which is why they have resorted to piracy.
 
talloulou said:
The pirates are mostly Somalian and they have no real stable government which is why they have resorted to piracy.
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But yet they have the money to buy AK47's and 74's, RPG's, explosives, boats and fuel.....
 
It is an Italian ship so why should the US care ..:roll:... that is if we go by the tanker thread where the usual suspects claimed the flag of the ship matters more than the ownership of the ship..:cool:
 
cherokee said:
But yet they have the money to buy AK47's and 74's, RPG's, explosives, boats and fuel.....
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Yep, because thus far piracy and ransoms have proved entirely successful for a community of fishing villages that were relying on foreign food aid due to spent waters.
 
talloulou said:
Yep, because thus far piracy and ransoms have proved entirely successful for a community of fishing villages that were relying on foreign food aid due to spent waters.
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Are you sure the ransoms are supporting a "community of fishing villages" or just Islamic thugs?
 
PeteEU said:
It is an Italian ship so why should the US care ..:roll:... that is if we go by the tanker thread where the usual suspects claimed the flag of the ship matters more than the ownership of the ship..:cool:
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No - It is a US ship. 10 of the crew of 16 are Italians.
 
cherokee said:
Are you sure the ransoms are supporting a "community of fishing villages" or just Islamic thugs?
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The "Islamic thugs" hunted the pirates on land when they were in power. It is "unislamic" to be a pirate. On top of that, those that have visited the "pirate villages" have found "un-Islamic" things like expensive cars, big mansions and other "western goods" that were pretty much banned under the "Islamic thugs" that ruled the country a few years ago.

So yes the chance that the "Islamic thugs" have resorted to piracy is pretty slim.

But I guess it depends what you mean by Islamic thugs.
 
danarhea said:
No - It is a US ship. 10 of the crew of 16 are Italians.
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It is US owned, but under Italian flag. The tanker was Danish owned and under US flag and the "usual suspects" claimed that hence it was a US ship. By that logic, this ship is Italian.... so why should the US care?
 
I am not trying to play the blame game, but do we know these are Pirates for sure, or could they plausibly be some form of Privateers?

This is where I draw the line. Time for negotiations is over, I want to see the term "pirate" erased from Somalia's dialect, immediately.
 
Arch Enemy said:
I am not trying to play the blame game, but do we know these are Pirates for sure, or could they plausibly be some form of Privateers?

This is where I draw the line. Time for negotiations is over, I want to see the term "pirate" erased from Somalia's dialect, immediately.
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The Somalians for the most part love the pirates. They are heroes. They essentially have brought livelihood to communities that were dying while the world looked on apathetically and took advantage of their lack of a government.
 
talloulou said:
The Somalians for the most part love the pirates. They are heroes. They essentially have brought livelihood to communities that were dying while the world looked on apathetically and took advantage of their lack of a government.
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So I'd say they're Privateers then.
 
Well at this point I can't imagine that the pirates will be successful for much longer. Ships have to be free to travel around the African Horn. So something will be done. I'm sure it will be messy, hurt many innocents, and be an all out PR mess. It's an all around crap situation. I admire their spirit. I don't condone piracy and I know all this will come to a bad end eventually but I admire their spirit and am somewhat sympathetic to their cause and history.
 
Arch Enemy said:
So I'd say they're Privateers then.
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That would make the problem easier to handle. Privateers are pirates who operate with the sanction of a government.

If these pirates are privateers, they are operating with the sanction of the Somali government, such as it is; that said government would endorse and encourage an ongoing threat to international shipping is justification for war, invasion, regime change, and either engaging in some major nation building or partitioning Somalia in whatever way works to establish a peaceful and stable solution.
 
PeteEU said:
The "Islamic thugs" hunted the pirates on land when they were in power. It is "unislamic" to be a pirate. On top of that, those that have visited the "pirate villages" have found "un-Islamic" things like expensive cars, big mansions and other "western goods" that were pretty much banned under the "Islamic thugs" that ruled the country a few years ago.

So yes the chance that the "Islamic thugs" have resorted to piracy is pretty slim.

But I guess it depends what you mean by Islamic thugs.
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I will retract the phrase "Islamic thugs" since I misunderstood the groups involved and couldn't find any direct ties to Islamic militants but to believe the two are not connected is something else.


The Associated Press: Officials: Pirates, terrorists not linked directly
 
talloulou said:
Well at this point I can't imagine that the pirates will be successful for much longer. Ships have to be free to travel around the African Horn. So something will be done. I'm sure it will be messy, hurt many innocents, and be an all out PR mess. It's an all around crap situation. I admire their spirit. I don't condone piracy and I know all this will come to a bad end eventually but I admire their spirit and am somewhat sympathetic to their cause and history.
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Firing RPG's at a ship, holding its crews at gun point for weeks at a time is something to admire?
 
PeteEU said:
It is "unislamic" to be a pirate.
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Some have said it is "un-Islamic" to be a terrorist as well...so it seems there are a few loopholes.
 
talloulou said:
Well at this point I can't imagine that the pirates will be successful for much longer. Ships have to be free to travel around the African Horn. So something will be done. I'm sure it will be messy, hurt many innocents, and be an all out PR mess. It's an all around crap situation. I admire their spirit. I don't condone piracy and I know all this will come to a bad end eventually but I admire their spirit and am somewhat sympathetic to their cause and history.
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Cause? What cause? Since when did money become a cause?

They want to score quick cash. There is nothing noble, noteworthy, or admirable in what they do. They have forfeited any expectation of respect, charity, sympathy, or good will of any kind.
 
cherokee said:
Firing RPG's at a ship, holding its crews at gun point for weeks at a time is something to admire?
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Well when the alternative is starving to death in dying fishing villages, relying on foreign aid for food, and feeling angry about why there's no fish and no stable government I say yeah. Their spirit is admirable. They have little options and the fact that they've been successful with this pirate business, creating boomtowns even, is rather awe inspiring. It's not as if these folks haven't appealed to the UN about their over fished waters and toxic dumping in their sees as well as a lack of any government to control what they see as "their" waters and livelihood. They could just sit around powerless with their thumbs up their collective asses relying solely on the foreign food aid. Instead they've gotten pissed, risen up, and raised holy hell on the high seas. So yes, it is a bit hard not to root for them. It is impossible for me to read about these pirates and not have some degree of awe and respect for their refusal to just roll over and play dead. Desperate peoples and desperate times call for desperate measures. Think about it. What are a young Somalian man's options? Fishing is no longer an adequate means of survival and there is virtually nothing else to do. I have little doubt were I in their place I'd either be a pirate or marry one. Piracy is the only avenue which has gotten many of those people not only a means of survival but an actual taste of the high life to boot.
 
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celticlord said:
That would make the problem easier to handle. Privateers are pirates who operate with the sanction of a government.

If these pirates are privateers, they are operating with the sanction of the Somali government, such as it is; that said government would endorse and encourage an ongoing threat to international shipping is justification for war, invasion, regime change, and either engaging in some major nation building or partitioning Somalia in whatever way works to establish a peaceful and stable solution.
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It may warrant that even if we cannot find evidence of Government sanction.
The reasons for invading Afghanistan were not because the Taliban promoted Al Quedia's attacks in 9/11, but because they did not disallow them.

It appears that we probably will not find evidence of the government condoning the privateers, but allowing them harbor in the country, and free-access.. are grounds for security forces.
 
Is the Obama team still mulling, or is the President of the United States gonna come out and speak out against this barbaric sh*t?
 
StandUpChuck said:
Is the Obama team still mulling, or is the President of the United States gonna come out and speak out against this barbaric sh*t?
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Still mulling....:roll:
 
Arch Enemy said:
It may warrant that even if we cannot find evidence of Government sanction.
The reasons for invading Afghanistan were not because the Taliban promoted Al Quedia's attacks in 9/11, but because they did not disallow them.

It appears that we probably will not find evidence of the government condoning the privateers, but allowing them harbor in the country, and free-access.. are grounds for security forces.
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The country has been existing in a state of relative anarchy since 1991. Holding the "government" accountable is laughable. When the area fell into anarchy the international community's response was to take advantage of the loose restrictions and lack of government and use the coast as a dumping ground for toxic waste.

Bombing the crap out of these people and claiming their government should have controlled them when there's been no government and basic anarchy for 20 years is pretty stupid.

We need to nation build. Which I know, folks hate. We need to support the new government, help it maintain stability so some law and order can begin to reign as well as create new means of existence for the people. Young men who can no longer survive as their ancestors did -fishing- need other options and opportunities. We need to rebuild a Somalia state. Anything short of that will be disastrous and lead to pointless bloodshed.
 
StandUpChuck said:
Is the Obama team still mulling, or is the President of the United States gonna come out and speak out against this barbaric sh*t?
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What the hell do you want him to say? Should he go on tv and make retarded threats? Should he just offer up some empty meaningless platitudes to appease people? Or should he just start bombing the crap out of these people?

Personally I hope he comes out and says we need to nation build in Somalia. Continue our efforts in supporting their new government so the government becomes strong enough to start policing their own. In the meantime maintain a heavy naval presence on the horn. That's what he should say, what we should do, but also what folks don't seem to want to hear so he's probably playing his cards right by keeping quiet.
 
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