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US Navy surrounds pirates as French commandos storm in

Kandahar said:
In other words, you're more interested in killing the pirates than in actually rescuing the hostage.
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Actually, I'm more interested in making sure no future hostages get taken. Your way is to save one life today by sacrificing ten lives tomorrow--that's not math I find particularly appealing.

Kandahar said:
And what about the 99.9% of the pirates who don't frequent that particular part of the coast and/or don't see the bodies before the locals remove them?
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Well, I'm sure in that case the pirates will happily offer up more of themselves for crucifixion....in time word will get around. If you like we can have a camera crew photograph the crucifixions and drop leaflets with the picture and the same "thou shalt not steal" message.
 
celticlord said:
Actually, I'm more interested in making sure no future hostages get taken. Your way is to save one life today by sacrificing ten lives tomorrow--that's not math I find particularly appealing.
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This presumes that blowing up this little lifeboat will have the slightest deterrent effect on other pirates.

celticlord said:
Well, I'm sure in that case the pirates will happily offer up more of themselves for crucifixion....in time word will get around. If you like we can have a camera crew photograph the crucifixions and drop leaflets with the picture and the same "thou shalt not steal" message.
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So just to clarify, do you propose blowing up any and all ships/crews that are taken by pirates? Or just Americans?
 
GarzaUK said:
You Americans and your stereotypes lol. I suppose everyone in Britain have bad teeth as well?
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That's like saying 1 in 3 Americans are obese....o **** that's true:)

Paul
 
Kandahar said:
Well, the idea would be to stop the pirates BEFORE they take someone hostage. Stopping and arresting/killing pirates will eliminate pirates from the sea.
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Sounds rather like the Bush Doctrine of preemptive warfare. I like that!

:2wave:
 
Kandahar said:
This presumes that blowing up this little lifeboat will have the slightest deterrent effect on other pirates.
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No, it presumes that pirate corpses prominently displayed on the Somali coast will have a deterrent, or that pirates being fed to sharks will have a deterrent.

Kandahar said:
So just to clarify, do you propose blowing up any and all ships/crews that are taken by pirates? Or just Americans?
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I propose having SEAL Team 6, British SAS, a few companies of US and British Royal Marines, plus any other elite military units one can add to the list, develop and train in melee tactics to retake ships, with the understanding taking pirates prisoner is not part of the mission parameters, and then, when ships are taken, have them retaken swiftly, with any pirates who surrender taken ashore and promptly nailed to a cross and left to die.

I'm sure shipping companies would happily help defray the cost of such an effort.

Alternatively, some entrepreneurial types could take some old rustbucket cargo ships and start hosting pirate hunting cruises for big game hunters bored with shooting at lions, tigers, and bears (oh my!).
 
celticlord said:
Well, by that logic, why isn't Somalia's "government" stopping the pirates? Their failure to act is forcing other nations to act instead.

In legalese, the term would likely be something similar to "exigent circumstance"--somebody has to do something. If the Somalis get offended by it....too damn bad.
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The Somali Government is on a bridge of weakness.
It's position is very delicate. If i was the President, i would not sacrifice my life just to make it look like we are doing something
 
Laila said:
The Somali Government is on a bridge of weakness.
It's position is very delicate. If i was the President, i would not sacrifice my life just to make it look like we are doing something
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No offense, but if you were not willing to sacrifice your life fighting against those who wish to harm others.. then I'd rather you not be President.
 
Laila said:
The Somali Government is on a bridge of weakness.
It's position is very delicate. If i was the President, i would not sacrifice my life just to make it look like we are doing something
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If I was President, I would not sacrifice my life either.

I would, however, most happily sacrifice the lives of more than a few Somali pirates/terrorists/extremists/scum.
 
Arch Enemy said:
No offense, but if you were not willing to sacrifice your life fighting against those who wish to harm others.. then I'd rather you not be President.
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I want to be President of Somalia/Somaliland.
I reckon i'd be brilliant one.
 
celticlord said:
If I was President, I would not sacrifice my life either.

I would, however, most happily sacrifice the lives of more than a few Somali pirates/terrorists/extremists/scum.
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True.
I'd be up for that
 
I think Israel has some experience with rescuing hostages in Africa. Who knows if Obama sucks up to them enough maybe they will do it for us.
 
partier9 said:
I think Israel has some experience with rescuing hostages in Africa. Who knows if Obama sucks up to them enough maybe they will do it for us.
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Hmmm.....here's an idea: Tell the Israelis we'll let them bomb Iran's nuclear reactors if they'll pitch in against the Somali pirates.

A win-win solution, I would say.
 
celticlord said:
Hardly. The pirates are surrounded and in a lifeboat.

Send in a SEAL team to put a very small limpet mine on the bottom of the boat, blow the bottom out, pick up the captain, leave the pirates for the sharks.
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Life is a little bit more complicated then a ****ty 1990s movie.

navyseals1.jpg
 
Grateful Heart said:
Sounds rather like the Bush Doctrine of preemptive warfare. I like that!

:2wave:
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Yeah....only thing is that if we stick to this analogy.... Bush would have probably walked into Jamaica, Queens looking for black guys on skidos.
 
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Hatuey said:
Life is a little bit more complicated then a ****ty 1990s movie.
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Actually, that sort of operation would be in keeping with tactics used by the Naval Special Warfare Development Group (aka, "SEAL Team Six").

Even civilian SWAT teams use explosive and incendiary devices to stun and incapacitate criminals holding hostages.

A boat which is suddenly sinking would be a huge distraction to all on board--exactly the sort of distraction that would allow Captain Phillips an opportunity to dive overboard again, only this time with US Navy personnel close at hand to get him to safety, or, alternatively, allow him to be pulled off the lifeboat.

The complete logistics of such an exercise are indeed far more complicated than what I have described here. That does not make the tactical concept unsound.
 
From this article: BBC NEWS | Africa | US 'in talks' with Somali pirates

A US military official said that early on Saturday the four pirates in the lifeboat, who are believed to be armed with pistols and AK-47 assault rifles, fired a few shots at a small navy vessel which had approached, possibly to conduct reconnaissance.

No one was hurt and the navy vessel turned away, the official said, speaking to the Associated Press on condition of anonymity.

No fire was returned, the official added, and he denied that the navy craft had been attempting a rescue attempt.
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seems like a botched rescue attempt.

I think the pirates are keeping their distance.

and

Another vessel, sailing under the Turkish flag, escaped when its crew used water hoses to repel the pirates who had fired a rocket-propelled grenade into the captain's cabin.

A piracy expert said the hijackings did not appear to be related to the attack on the Alabama Maersk.

"This is just the Somali pirate machine in full flow," Graeme Gibbon-Brooks, founder of Dryad Maritime Intelligence Ltd, told AP.
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Note to Self: Piracy "experts" are complete morons.
 
obvious Child said:
As I understand it, those were land operations. Sea based operations are quite a different animal.
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Not entirely. The challenge of securing a ship is similar to securing a building on land once the rescuing force is actually on board, with the same concerns: free fire zones, ability to preserve hostage lives, et cetera.

In the case of Captain Richard Phillips and his captors, the challenge is that the craft itself is so small. There is no opportunity for a stealth insertion onto the craft, nor is there any getting around the fact that the pirates are literally right next to Captain Phillips. Any strike has to be of a sudden and disruptive nature, so that the the pirates will not have a chance to react before Captain Phillips has been extracted.

Additionally, the lifeboat the pirates are on is designed to hold 20-30 people with sufficient rations on board for up to I believe two weeks. While "small" compared to other ocean going vessels, this craft is no small rowboat.

This gives the parameters of a successful rescue operation:
  1. The operation must initiate with a sudden and overwhelming disruption that will "freeze" the pirates.
  2. The disruptive event must not completely destroy the lifeboat, as that would most likely kill Captain Phillips as well
  3. Captain Phillips needs to be quickly removed from the lifeboat--i.e., someone needs to literally pull him off the boat and get him away from the pirates.

A small charge attached to the keel of the boat, designed to have enough explosive force to blow a hole in the hull without destroying the entire craft, would almost certainly have the desired disruptive effect. Captain Phillips would have to be identified and targeted ahead of time, with one or two personnel designated to literally pull him off the boat, or, if that's not possible, board the craft, grab the good Captain, and get off the craft ASAP.

Once Captain Phillips had been removed, use a larger explosive charge to blow the boat to matchsticks, or just spray some 9mm small arms fire all over the vessel to put an end to the pirates. No real need to take them prisoner.
 
Laila said:
They are not terrorists, they are pirates. Get it right please.

What game? Jeez. It's not Al Qaeda you know.

What lessons? Let me make this very clear because some do not seem to understand the main problem.
There is nothing Americans can do to Somalis that Somalis have not already done to themselves.
For a country where anarchy and death has been a norm, it is not a deterrant.
Especially seeing pirates face hangings, stonings and whippings. What can US do to scare them? Very little.


Welll .... just came back from a holiday in Somaliland and i heard of no pirating until i stepped foot back in UK. Our media must suck.
Well, whatever "ass kicking" the US Army wants to do. Keep it kindly away from North of Somalia. I like my country tyvm and would like to go back to how i left it o_O
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Somaliland - the unsung success story of the Horn of Africa.
 
Laila said:
Isn't the more pressing problem - Is it legal for any army to enter the territorial waters of another without prior permission from the governing body of a country? [Somalia has a recognised President remember]
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Territorial waters only extend out 12 miles. These hijackings (and it isn't only the French and Americans that are being hijacked - ships from Yemen, Italy, and Taiwan have been hijacked in the past week alone) are generally happening much further out.

The Taiwanese fishing boat that has been in the news here was near the Seychelles when it was taken.
 
Laila said:
The Somali Government is on a bridge of weakness.
It's position is very delicate. If i was the President, i would not sacrifice my life just to make it look like we are doing something
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Does the Somali government have any real control outside of Mogadishu? Somalia's situation today is not that unlike China's in the late 1910s and early 1920s. Warlords in control of the country and a "recognized" government in control of little more than the capital.
 
faminedynasty said:
I like to make fun of the French as much as anyone, but the truth is they really do have some extremely badass commandos. It's probably the result of all those young men growing up over there hearing how much we make fun of them and getting mad.
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The French GIGN have always been bad to the bone. They are good at what they do and they did a good job today.

I think an allied Naval force on patrol along the horn of Africa. We can use this force to deter piracy.

SEALS/GIGN/SAS members can be assigned to apprehend or kill pirates in that area.

Eventually, enough of them will be caught or killed and this fact will make pirates think twice about bording ships in that part of the world.
 
Why aren't the merchant ships arming themselves?

The pirates can't do much shooting once they are too close. Once they are along side, they don't dare fire the RPG's, and the only direction they can fire an AK47 is straight up. A few shotgun slugs thru their boat hull will give them something else to think about... like a sinking boat..
 
UtahBill said:
Why aren't the merchant ships arming themselves?

The pirates can't do much shooting once they are too close. Once they are along side, they don't dare fire the RPG's, and the only direction they can fire an AK47 is straight up. A few shotgun slugs thru their boat hull will give them something else to think about... like a sinking boat..
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In some cases, they are carrying highly explosive or flammable cargo (like oil)...it wouldn't be good to have gunfire around that. But in the cases where they aren't, I think a lot of the ships do carry weapons.
 
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