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Stats please?
Didnt think so.
You're so weird!
I included a link to the Washington Post!
Stats please?
Didnt think so.
Of course, that presumes that anything Dear Leader says is anything other than a pathetic joke....but that's a different subject, now, isn't it?It is recommended for all lecturers especially when the subject is difficult to take a break for a joke... it does not mean they want to make a joke out of the subject.
scourge99 said:The idea of secularism is NOT a Christian concept or espoused by any Christian teachings predating the US that I'm aware of.
celticlord said:Of course, that presumes that anything Dear Leader says is anything other than a pathetic joke....but that's a different subject, now, isn't it?
can ever cause such an idea of yours is totally beyond me.Originally Posted by justone said:It is recommended for all lecturers especially when the subject is difficult to take a break for a joke... it does not mean they want to make a joke out of the subject.
Depends on the quality of the scotch.Are you a mystic?
Iam not missing the point but explaining the claim by showing one cannot reference Christian principles exclusive from theology. A theocracy is formed by referencing a divine being as a basis for it's laws. That is why iraq is a self-defined theocracy because it states point blank in their Constitution islam is the main source of legislation. There is nothing in our Constitution suggesting the same about Christianity. .
Those who get pissed off over the simple fact that just because christians built it (the constitution) doesn't make it 'CHRISTIAN' without any other evidence.
There is nothing to state that the constitution and bill of rights are any evidence of the founders building our constitution based upon christian values.
Spot on Caine.
This nation is founded on Christian principals (and one of them was ‘ don’t put a statement about Christianity in the Constitution’),
Is that why the FF's patterned the government after Rome a Pagan Empire?
Sure… rule of aristocracy, distinguished from plebeians, distinguished from slaves, gladiators fights, imperior-god, statues of Venera and Pontius Pilate, death for insulting its highness, crucifixion of Christ,.. etc… they patterned all the main features.Originally Posted by justone said:1. Can you prove that? Can you submit any evidence or rational behind your awareness? You are proving again that atheism is a system of blind beliefs which have no evidence or rational behind them
2. Can you disprove the given references, documents and historical events which were submitted as a proof that secularism is a Christian concept? You are proving again that atheism is a system of blind beliefs contradicting evidence and rational.
justone said:The fact that there is nothing in the Constitution stating that we are a Christian nation proves exactly that we are a Christian nation.
I don't see how you can make the arguement against anything he is saying, it is pretty clear even if it is the most practiced religion in America does not make America a Christian nation.
Good job Mr. President, best thing you've said yet.
Of course, that presumes that anything Dear Leader says is anything other than a pathetic joke....but that's a different subject, now, isn't it? .
Depends on the quality of the scotch.
ROTFL! How can one even begin to address such logic???? Iam also a Christian so to assume only non-Christians would disagree is pretty scary narcissism.
Disagree with what? And how does it depend on whether you have decided to pretend to be a Christian or an atheist or a Muslim? So far you are submitting the same obama’s argument – ‘look, I am not a Christian, therefore..’
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tian-nation-says-obama-10.html#post1057983898
Originally Posted by justone said:“History repeats itself twice- the first time as a tragedy, the second time as a farce”. Of course, Obama is totally blank of knowing or understanding any historical concept or any concept. He is a total farce. So we have to remove the real historical context from his statement because it has never entered his mind, - then we have to come to the real concept of his words, which is - ‘look I am not a Christian, therefore…’. Sure, Hussein Obama, you aren’t. You are not representing American concepts and beliefs, neither Christians nor secular ones (originated from Christianity). The same statement has been posted by atheists everywhere in the US, including DP, - “look, I am not a Christian, therefore….” .
I am not mentioning that I have not noticed anything in your posts which would give a hint that you possibly may be a Christian: These words of yours are a proof for me that you cannot possibly be a Christian:And i already addressed them: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tian-nation-says-obama-23.html#post1057987858Originally Posted by SkyCore said:If Jesus were to be strolling in America today he'd probably vomit on a regular basis to see how his Sacrifice has been exploited and mangled to support nearly everything he taught against and gave his life for. .
Though it is of a secondary importance.
Moonshine is not scotch, but sour mash.Moonshine quality makes it stink, whatever may be your arguments.
-Our laws derive directly from Judeo-Christian teachings. Several of the ratifying states had official state religions.
It is the 2nd or 3rd time you promise to begin, but keep on idling.Disagree with what? And how does it depend on whether you have decided to pretend to be a Christian or an atheist or a Muslim? So far you are submitting the same obama’s argument – ‘look, I am not a Christian, therefore..’
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tian-nation-says-obama-10.html#post1057983898
I am not mentioning that I have not noticed anything in your posts which would give a hint that you possibly may be a Christian: These words of yours are a proof for me that you cannot possibly be a Christian:
And i already addressed them: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tian-nation-says-obama-23.html#post1057987858
Though it is of a secondary importance.
So iam not a Christian because I pointed out how as a Nation we practice many things that Jesus spoke out against? Pathetic.
Hmmmmm......that's interesting because I go to an evangelical church and I've never one time heard a sermon about abortion. A handful a times (over a dozen years) we have discussed "gay-rights" in terms of ordination standards and denominational business but that's it.
I'm curious how often you actually attend these churches to witness what you're so sure is happening in there.
Oh .... and I've been to "churches" with a leftist ideology (like a U.U. "church") and I've never seen so much blatant politicizing in a church before in my life! Right-wingers would never get away with that. (Perhaps a Catholic church with the abortion issue may rival it but that's about it.)
eta: And you didn't answer my question. Are you a Christian?
And the difference is......what?Yes...as I've indicated before, I am a Christian...but not "Christian".
The founders weren't exactly Christian and there's nothing in the Constitution referencing Christianity so your claim about the founding principles lacks evidence. My point about murder/theft laws is they are secular and not religious based, therefore claiming them as being Christian is intellectually dishonest by omitting the fact those laws wholly exist without Christianity.
And nothing above refutes the definition I posted. Your position is debunked because you cannot prove the correlation between the US being based on Christian ideals, and the US being a theocracy, whereas I have shown that the US being founded on Christian ideals does not equal a theocracy, by very definition. Your position has no validity.Wiki is not a reliable source for the issue and the first reason is the root meaning of the term:
theocracy:
1622, "sacerdotal government under divine inspiration" (as that of Israel before the rise of kings), from Gk. theokratia "the rule of God" (Josephus), from theos "god" (of unknown origin, perhaps a non-I.E. word) + kratos "a rule, regime, strength" (see -cracy). Meaning "priestly or religious body wielding political and civil power" is recorded from 1825.
Iraq most certainly fits that criteria because the Koran is their main direct source of legislation as has been shown via Article 2 of their Constitution. But we can go even further and view the evidence from the ground, beginning in 2005:
"But in recent weeks, some civil rights leaders and social conservatives had raised concerns to the White House over language in the proposed constitution calling for Islam to be the official religion of the state. The concern is that a religion is being specifically named. They note that the drafters of the U.S. Constitution did not name Christianity as the official religion of this country, considering religious freedom a basic tenet of democracy."
War Supporters Concerned That 'Theocracy' Will Be Final Word in Iraq Saga
And from 2007, a report from our State Department:
September 15, 2007:
"Religious freedom has sharply deteriorated in Iraq over the past year because of the insurgency and violence targeting people of specific faiths, despite the U.S. military buildup intended to improve security, a State Department report said Friday ...."Many individuals from various religious groups were targeted because of their religious identity or their secular leanings," the report said.It found that members of all religions in Iraq are "victims of harassment, intimidation, kidnapping, and killings" and that "frequent sectarian violence included attacks on places of worship."
Iraq Theocracy, Civil War and Genocide Watch
So how I don't know how in the world it can be claimed my position has been debunked. People can split hairs about narrow definitions of "Theocracy" but the evidence from the ground leaves their position as bald and bumpy as a golf ball.
(Was distracted during first reply so quoted this again to finish.)
I'm having trouble keeping up with your claims. In post 146 you quoted BW who said we live under a secular structure but are a Christian nation. Your response was to start off with "No." followed by saying we were founded on Christian principles but we are not a Christian nation. Later, in post 169 you mis-quote obama by a long shot then claim we are a Christian nation by a landslide. So in addition to what appears confusing (unless I quoted the wrong poster) about that you move your claim of being "founded on Christian principles" to simply saying our nation was influenced by Christian theology. I see those two as completely different and agree with the latter.
-Almost 90% of Americans consider themselves Christian.
-We celebrate Christmas, while Jewish, Islamic, and BS, made up holidays like Kwanzaa are tolerated as minority holidays.
-We don't allow polygamy...something Islam embraces, but Christianity opposes.
-We were un-mistakably founded by Anglo-Saxon Christians.
-Our laws derive directly from Judeo-Christian teachings. Several of the ratifying states had official state religions.
-The left's alleged poster boy for their "Church and State" myth, Thomas Jefferson, proposed for our national seal an image of Moses parting the Red Sea, under the inscription, "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God."
It goes on and on. The only people who don't acknowledge that this is a Christian nation are people like Obama, who hate it and want to change everything about it.
No, whether or not these laws existed before Christianity is irrelevant. Firstly, the founders were theists, mostly of a Christian faith. Denying that is intellectually dishonest. Secondly, it is the founders mindset that is relevant, not whether or not the laws existed before Christianity. Therefore, your position, above, fails on both matters.
And nothing above refutes the definition I posted. Your position is debunked because you cannot prove the correlation between the US being based on Christian ideals, and the US being a theocracy, whereas I have shown that the US being founded on Christian ideals does not equal a theocracy, by very definition. Your position has no validity.
"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."
Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." -
Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." -
Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." -
Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)
Even somebody who knows only the 10 commandments of Christianity and then the words of the Founding Fathers would come to two one of two conclusions. They were cafeteria Christians who ignored even the most important parts of Christianity(like for example the 1st commandment) or they had split personality disorders. Which Christian 'ideals' are these people are talking about? Freedom of religion? Freedom of speech? Which 'ideals' upon which our country was founded on is 'Christian' in nature? Why would they ignore the very basic tenets of Christianity while writing the constitution? We can debate all we want about what they might have been thinking but at the end of the day they wrote the one piece of information that destroys any assertion that we're a 'Christian nation'(1st amendment) by ignoring the most basic of Christian tenets(1st commandment).
I think it was established that a "Christian Theocracy" is un-Christian in and of itself.
Really? If that was what I was addressing you'd have a point :
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
.....just sayin'. 'Freedom of Religion' is not a Christian principle. So what are these Christian principles that our country was founded on?