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"We do not consider ourselves a christian nation", says Obama

It is recommended for all lecturers especially when the subject is difficult to take a break for a joke... it does not mean they want to make a joke out of the subject.
Of course, that presumes that anything Dear Leader says is anything other than a pathetic joke....but that's a different subject, now, isn't it?
 
scourge99 said:
The idea of secularism is NOT a Christian concept or espoused by any Christian teachings predating the US that I'm aware of.


1. Can you prove that? Can you submit any evidence or rational behind your awareness? You are proving again that atheism is a system of blind beliefs which have no evidence or rational behind them

2. Can you disprove the given references, documents and historical events which were submitted as a proof that secularism is a Christian concept? You are proving again that atheism is a system of blind beliefs contradicting evidence and rational.
 
celticlord said:
Of course, that presumes that anything Dear Leader says is anything other than a pathetic joke....but that's a different subject, now, isn't it?

Certainly it is. How my statement
Originally Posted by justone said:
It is recommended for all lecturers especially when the subject is difficult to take a break for a joke... it does not mean they want to make a joke out of the subject.
can ever cause such an idea of yours is totally beyond me.
How anything or anybody can make such a presumption or statement is beyond the reality which can be seen, observed or detected by any other senses. Where did get such an idea about existence of such a presumption? Are you a mystic?
 
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Iam not missing the point but explaining the claim by showing one cannot reference Christian principles exclusive from theology. A theocracy is formed by referencing a divine being as a basis for it's laws. That is why iraq is a self-defined theocracy because it states point blank in their Constitution islam is the main source of legislation. There is nothing in our Constitution suggesting the same about Christianity. .
Those who get pissed off over the simple fact that just because christians built it (the constitution) doesn't make it 'CHRISTIAN' without any other evidence.

There is nothing to state that the constitution and bill of rights are any evidence of the founders building our constitution based upon christian values.




Spot on Caine.

Atheists state:
The fact that there is nothing in the Constitution stating that we are a Christian nation proves we are not a Christian nation.

This statement may astonish anyone who has a minimal rational, if it was not a routine confirmation of total irrationality of atheists.

No matter how much this statement lacks any rational, it is thanked for by atheists and repeated by atheists. The main problem of arguing to atheists is that they never get exhausted in making irrational statements. One would never think how it is possible to put so much of absurd in each and every sentence they make. They often prevail by sheer amount of their obtuseness they get never exhausted to throw and pile absurd. One very soon finds himself under a pile of total garbage, total absurd- the only product of an atheistic mind.

The fact that there is nothing in the Constitution stating that we are a Christian nation proves exactly that we are a Christian nation.

If we and the Founders were atheists or Muslims we would have such a statement (that we are atheists or Muslims) put in a document.


If there was such a statement in the Constitution, it would make the Republic to be a Christian Republic,- like the Islamic republic of Pakistan or something. That would be against Christian principals of the Founders. That would be against the whole meaning they were putting in Christianity. That would be a proof that we are not founded on Christian principals. Even if some people and states could suggest that, the Founders could not put such a statement in without breaking the integrity of their Christian beliefs.

Such a statement could be put in by Muslims or by atheists, - but not by Christians. We are all aware about the history of atheists and Muslims fighting each other and Christians to establish Muslim or atheistic theocracy – unification of the government and Islam, or unification of the government and atheism. We all are ware about the struggle of Christians, and first of all Christians of the young America, pioneers against theocracy. We all can see atheistic and Muslim theocracies throughout history and today. We don’t see a Christian theocracy.

This nation is founded on Christian principals (and one of them was ‘ don’t put a statement about Christianity in the Constitution’), - and by Christians, and the overwhelming majority are Christians today. Only atheists driven by the urge to demonstrate their irrationality and immorality would want a Christian to sign under the statement ‘we are not Christian nation’. Only atheists can suggest that a Christian would want to make an atheist to sign under the statement ‘we are a Christian nation”.

It is like arguing the statement “we are not a law obedient and guided nation”. It is clear that criminals are coming to post their approval.

So far atheists are living in a Christian nation which has provided and supported the secular construction of the government of the Republic, the construction which recognizes the unalienable needs of citizen for spirituality and beliefs, which forbids any denial, judgment or intervention of the government with such needs and expressions of thereof. Atheists want to change this nation and the construction of the government of the Republic, they want to abolish the Christian concept of freedom of the spiritual life and beliefs; they want change. The question is to change to what? Should we start from the teachings of atheism that individuals cannot have spiritual needs and beliefs? Obama’s statement means change. He wants, for a change, to make a Christian of this country to agree and say “we (including myself) are not a Christian nation’’. No, obama, I AM a Christian nation, and you are not a Christian nation; you do not represent me and other Christians of this nation, in the same way as criminals posting the declarations that “we are not a law guided nation’’, - because it is not specifically stated in the criminal law, - do not represent this nation. I officially call for you impeachment, as you don’t represent and do not have abilities to represent this nation. I call law guided citizens to stand up against demands of criminals in the way it is provided by the law of the land.

Obama could say many things which would declare and explain peaceful nature of this nation, including in the statement Christians and everyone else, but he has chosen AGAIN to single out Christians and to demonstrate his hostile and unfriendly attitude towards them.
 
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This nation is founded on Christian principals (and one of them was ‘ don’t put a statement about Christianity in the Constitution’),

Is that why the FF's patterned the government after Rome a Pagan Empire?
 
Nothing he said was incorrect, and actually it is the best thing I've heard from him in a while.

I don't see how you can make the arguement against anything he is saying, it is pretty clear even if it is the most practiced religion in America does not make America a Christian nation.

Good job Mr. President, best thing you've said yet.
 
Is that why the FF's patterned the government after Rome a Pagan Empire?

Originally Posted by justone said:
1. Can you prove that? Can you submit any evidence or rational behind your awareness? You are proving again that atheism is a system of blind beliefs which have no evidence or rational behind them

2. Can you disprove the given references, documents and historical events which were submitted as a proof that secularism is a Christian concept? You are proving again that atheism is a system of blind beliefs contradicting evidence and rational.
Sure… rule of aristocracy, distinguished from plebeians, distinguished from slaves, gladiators fights, imperior-god, statues of Venera and Pontius Pilate, death for insulting its highness, crucifixion of Christ,.. etc… they patterned all the main features.

One can never think what of kind of delirium atheists are capable of producing, until one hears from them, - in schools, colleges, universes, TV programs, until one opens a book from a book store shelf. Only old books on logic and mathematics can protect one from the delirium.
 
justone said:
The fact that there is nothing in the Constitution stating that we are a Christian nation proves exactly that we are a Christian nation.


ROTFL! How can one even begin to address such logic???? Iam also a Christian so to assume only non-Christians would disagree is pretty scary narcissism.
 
I don't see how you can make the arguement against anything he is saying, it is pretty clear even if it is the most practiced religion in America does not make America a Christian nation.

Good job Mr. President, best thing you've said yet.
Of course, that presumes that anything Dear Leader says is anything other than a pathetic joke....but that's a different subject, now, isn't it? .

It seems, celticlord, I was wrong arguing that nobody in right mind would make such a presumption of such a kind.


Or may be it is a spritual thing? Some kind of shamanism, when no facts or arguments are needed but just shakings and jumping and fainting in thou presence. Anything the Dear Leader says

Depends on the quality of the scotch.

Or may be you are also right here, - it does depend. Then we would be dealing with a moonshine quality here. Moonshine quality makes it stink, whatever may be your arguments.
 
ROTFL! How can one even begin to address such logic???? Iam also a Christian so to assume only non-Christians would disagree is pretty scary narcissism.

It is the 2nd or 3rd time you promise to begin, but keep on idling.
Disagree with what? And how does it depend on whether you have decided to pretend to be a Christian or an atheist or a Muslim? So far you are submitting the same obama’s argument – ‘look, I am not a Christian, therefore..’
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tian-nation-says-obama-10.html#post1057983898
Originally Posted by justone said:
“History repeats itself twice- the first time as a tragedy, the second time as a farce”. Of course, Obama is totally blank of knowing or understanding any historical concept or any concept. He is a total farce. So we have to remove the real historical context from his statement because it has never entered his mind, - then we have to come to the real concept of his words, which is - ‘look I am not a Christian, therefore…’. Sure, Hussein Obama, you aren’t. You are not representing American concepts and beliefs, neither Christians nor secular ones (originated from Christianity). The same statement has been posted by atheists everywhere in the US, including DP, - “look, I am not a Christian, therefore….” .


I am not mentioning that I have not noticed anything in your posts which would give a hint that you possibly may be a Christian: These words of yours are a proof for me that you cannot possibly be a Christian:
Originally Posted by SkyCore said:
If Jesus were to be strolling in America today he'd probably vomit on a regular basis to see how his Sacrifice has been exploited and mangled to support nearly everything he taught against and gave his life for. .
And i already addressed them: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tian-nation-says-obama-23.html#post1057987858
Though it is of a secondary importance.
 
-Our laws derive directly from Judeo-Christian teachings. Several of the ratifying states had official state religions.

Everyone has been making this statement but nobody can back it up.

Saying it 100 times isn't going to make it true.
 
It is the 2nd or 3rd time you promise to begin, but keep on idling.
Disagree with what? And how does it depend on whether you have decided to pretend to be a Christian or an atheist or a Muslim? So far you are submitting the same obama’s argument – ‘look, I am not a Christian, therefore..’
http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tian-nation-says-obama-10.html#post1057983898



I am not mentioning that I have not noticed anything in your posts which would give a hint that you possibly may be a Christian: These words of yours are a proof for me that you cannot possibly be a Christian:
And i already addressed them: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...tian-nation-says-obama-23.html#post1057987858
Though it is of a secondary importance.

So iam not a Christian because I pointed out how as a Nation we practice many things that Jesus spoke out against? Pathetic.
 
Hmmmmm......that's interesting because I go to an evangelical church and I've never one time heard a sermon about abortion. A handful a times (over a dozen years) we have discussed "gay-rights" in terms of ordination standards and denominational business but that's it.

I'm curious how often you actually attend these churches to witness what you're so sure is happening in there.

Oh .... and I've been to "churches" with a leftist ideology (like a U.U. "church") and I've never seen so much blatant politicizing in a church before in my life! Right-wingers would never get away with that. ;) (Perhaps a Catholic church with the abortion issue may rival it but that's about it.)

eta: And you didn't answer my question. Are you a Christian?

Yes...as I've indicated before, I am a Christian...but not "Christian".
 
The founders weren't exactly Christian and there's nothing in the Constitution referencing Christianity so your claim about the founding principles lacks evidence. My point about murder/theft laws is they are secular and not religious based, therefore claiming them as being Christian is intellectually dishonest by omitting the fact those laws wholly exist without Christianity.

No, whether or not these laws existed before Christianity is irrelevant. Firstly, the founders were theists, mostly of a Christian faith. Denying that is intellectually dishonest. Secondly, it is the founders mindset that is relevant, not whether or not the laws existed before Christianity. Therefore, your position, above, fails on both matters.

Wiki is not a reliable source for the issue and the first reason is the root meaning of the term:

theocracy:

1622, "sacerdotal government under divine inspiration" (as that of Israel before the rise of kings), from Gk. theokratia "the rule of God" (Josephus), from theos "god" (of unknown origin, perhaps a non-I.E. word) + kratos "a rule, regime, strength" (see -cracy). Meaning "priestly or religious body wielding political and civil power" is recorded from 1825.

Iraq most certainly fits that criteria because the Koran is their main direct source of legislation as has been shown via Article 2 of their Constitution. But we can go even further and view the evidence from the ground, beginning in 2005:

"But in recent weeks, some civil rights leaders and social conservatives had raised concerns to the White House over language in the proposed constitution calling for Islam to be the official religion of the state. The concern is that a religion is being specifically named. They note that the drafters of the U.S. Constitution did not name Christianity as the official religion of this country, considering religious freedom a basic tenet of democracy."
War Supporters Concerned That 'Theocracy' Will Be Final Word in Iraq Saga


And from 2007, a report from our State Department:

September 15, 2007:

"Religious freedom has sharply deteriorated in Iraq over the past year because of the insurgency and violence targeting people of specific faiths, despite the U.S. military buildup intended to improve security, a State Department report said Friday ...."Many individuals from various religious groups were targeted because of their religious identity or their secular leanings," the report said.It found that members of all religions in Iraq are "victims of harassment, intimidation, kidnapping, and killings" and that "frequent sectarian violence included attacks on places of worship."

Iraq Theocracy, Civil War and Genocide Watch


So how I don't know how in the world it can be claimed my position has been debunked. People can split hairs about narrow definitions of "Theocracy" but the evidence from the ground leaves their position as bald and bumpy as a golf ball.
And nothing above refutes the definition I posted. Your position is debunked because you cannot prove the correlation between the US being based on Christian ideals, and the US being a theocracy, whereas I have shown that the US being founded on Christian ideals does not equal a theocracy, by very definition. Your position has no validity.
 
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(Was distracted during first reply so quoted this again to finish.)

I'm having trouble keeping up with your claims. In post 146 you quoted BW who said we live under a secular structure but are a Christian nation. Your response was to start off with "No." followed by saying we were founded on Christian principles but we are not a Christian nation. Later, in post 169 you mis-quote obama by a long shot then claim we are a Christian nation by a landslide. So in addition to what appears confusing (unless I quoted the wrong poster) about that you move your claim of being "founded on Christian principles" to simply saying our nation was influenced by Christian theology. I see those two as completely different and agree with the latter.

You are confusing two different "Captains". I, CaptainCourtesy, made the post at 146, but Captain American made the post at 169. No wonder this sequence seemed confusing. ;)
 
Tomm. in this so called X-ian nation? Mass X-ians will be celebrating another holiday that they stole from the Pagans.
 
-Almost 90% of Americans consider themselves Christian.

-We celebrate Christmas, while Jewish, Islamic, and BS, made up holidays like Kwanzaa are tolerated as minority holidays.

-We don't allow polygamy...something Islam embraces, but Christianity opposes.

-We were un-mistakably founded by Anglo-Saxon Christians.

-Our laws derive directly from Judeo-Christian teachings. Several of the ratifying states had official state religions.

-The left's alleged poster boy for their "Church and State" myth, Thomas Jefferson, proposed for our national seal an image of Moses parting the Red Sea, under the inscription, "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God."

It goes on and on. The only people who don't acknowledge that this is a Christian nation are people like Obama, who hate it and want to change everything about it.

Your final statement in this is the wrong conclusion from the previous ones. All you did was prove that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. That in no way correlates to it being a Christian nation. Sorry. You're wrong.
 
No, whether or not these laws existed before Christianity is irrelevant. Firstly, the founders were theists, mostly of a Christian faith. Denying that is intellectually dishonest. Secondly, it is the founders mindset that is relevant, not whether or not the laws existed before Christianity. Therefore, your position, above, fails on both matters.

And nothing above refutes the definition I posted. Your position is debunked because you cannot prove the correlation between the US being based on Christian ideals, and the US being a theocracy, whereas I have shown that the US being founded on Christian ideals does not equal a theocracy, by very definition. Your position has no validity.
"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble."

Benjamin Franklin (Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)


"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." -

Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." -

Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." -

Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

Even somebody who knows only the 10 commandments of Christianity and then the words of the Founding Fathers would come to two one of two conclusions. They were cafeteria Christians who ignored even the most important parts of Christianity(like for example the 1st commandment) or they had split personality disorders. Which Christian 'ideals' are these people are talking about? Freedom of religion? Freedom of speech? Which 'ideals' upon which our country was founded on is 'Christian' in nature? Why would they ignore the very basic tenets of Christianity while writing the constitution? We can debate all we want about what they might have been thinking but at the end of the day they wrote the one piece of information that destroys any assertion that we're a 'Christian nation'(1st amendment) by ignoring the most basic of Christian tenets(1st commandment).
 
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Even somebody who knows only the 10 commandments of Christianity and then the words of the Founding Fathers would come to two one of two conclusions. They were cafeteria Christians who ignored even the most important parts of Christianity(like for example the 1st commandment) or they had split personality disorders. Which Christian 'ideals' are these people are talking about? Freedom of religion? Freedom of speech? Which 'ideals' upon which our country was founded on is 'Christian' in nature? Why would they ignore the very basic tenets of Christianity while writing the constitution? We can debate all we want about what they might have been thinking but at the end of the day they wrote the one piece of information that destroys any assertion that we're a 'Christian nation'(1st amendment) by ignoring the most basic of Christian tenets(1st commandment).

I think it was established that a "Christian Theocracy" is un-Christian in and of itself. I think the sincerest form of Christian governance (or lack thereof) is [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism"]Christian Anarchism.[/ame]
 
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I think it was established that a "Christian Theocracy" is un-Christian in and of itself.

Really? If that was what I was addressing you'd have a point :

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

.....just sayin'. 'Freedom of Religion' is not a Christian principle. So what are these Christian principles that our country was founded on?
 
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Really? If that was what I was addressing you'd have a point :

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

.....just sayin'. 'Freedom of Religion' is not a Christian principle. So what are these Christian principles that our country was founded on?

Actually, freedom of religion is a Christian principle. Christ and his disciples did not go around converting people by the sword.
 
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