Despite Berlusconi efforts; Turkey remains cold on Rasmussen in NATO, possible Veto.

kaya'08 · Apr 4, 2009

Ankara made clear Saturday it would not agree to Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen being appointed the next head of NATO at an alliance summit, after Italian prime minister telephoned his Turkish counterpart to discuss the issue. (UPDATED)

"Why should Turkey agree on a candidate today? Yesterday the (Turkish) prime minister spoke about it and we are sticking with that idea," a senior Turkish government official told Reuters after Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi telephoned his Turkish counterpart Tayyip Erdogan to convince him to accept Europe's candidate for the next head of the military alliance.

Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who has privately announced his candidacy for the top civilian post at NATO, is the front-runner to replace Dutch diplomat Jaap de Hoop Scheffer.

Turkey says the Dane's unwillingness to suspend broadcasts from a Denmark-based TV station linked to the terror organization PKK, and his stance during the 2006 crisis over a Danish newspapers publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, cast doubts over his ability to lead the alliance.

Berlusconi threw out the protocol rule book earlier on Saturday, missing NATO ceremonies and failing to greet his hosts because he was so engrossed in a phone call with Erdogan in a last-minute bid to try to persuade him to overcome Turkey’s resistance to Rasmussen’s candidacy.

"From the moment Prime Minister Berlusconi woke up this morning he has been in direct contact with Prime Minister Erdogan, trying to find a solution to this problem," a source close to the Italian leader told Reuters.

But his lengthy intervention failed to achieve a breakthrough.

Obama talks with Gul and Rasmussen

In the French city of Strasbourg, where the 28 NATO leaders were holding the second day of a summit, U.S. President Barack Obama also had private talks with his Turkish counterpart Abdullah Gul and Rasmussen, sources told Anatolian Agency.

The Turkish official in Ankara accused German Chancellor Angela Merkel, co-host of the summit, of pressuring leaders to agree now when a decision was not necessary before July.

"Why are we being pushed? Let's talk about it and then we can decide. Merkel has been very active on this and has pushed leaders on it, especially at the G20 (summit in London on Thursday)," he told Reuters.

However, he left open the possibility that Ankara could accept Rasmussen at a later date if the Danish leader made amends to the Muslim world for the cartoon crisis.

"Maybe we can change, but it will be up to Rasmussen and other leaders (to convince us)," the official said.

Rasmussen is due in Istanbul next Monday to attend a conference of the Alliance of Civilizations, founded by Turkey and Spain to improve understanding between the West and the Muslim world.

I think the problem here is, because Rasmussen is so disliked paticularly among majority muslim states, this effectively paralyses any chances of him bringing peace in Afghanistan and other areas that NATO operate in, which makes sense. He also allowed the broadcast of a pro-terrorist channel for the PKK which was releasing violent propaganda, which pissed Turkey off, especially because it is so active in Iraq stemming the PKK in the north beside America. Allowing the broadcast of a violent pro-terrorist propaganda channel also undermines NATO's entire objective in Afghanistan and Iraq; bringing an end to terrorism. Can Rasmussen really lead NATO, and will he contribute to peace?

PeteEU · Apr 4, 2009

Re: Despite Berlusconi efforts; Turkey remains cold on Rasmussen in NATO, possible Ve

kaya'08 said:
I think the problem here is, because Rasmussen is so disliked paticularly among majority muslim states, this effectively paralyses any chances of him bringing peace in Afghanistan and other areas that NATO operate in, which makes sense.

Not true. The Turkish leader dislikes him personally and that is why in part Turkey has been "pissed" on his nomination and now his appointment since he got the job. The Turkish leader is a radical Muslim in sheep's clothing and it has showen its ugly head yet again. As long as he is in power (which might not be for long) then Turkey will be in the "political" void. However they had the veto power and did not use it.

What the Turks and especially their leader do not understand (that goes for a large part of the Muslim world) is that in Denmark the government has no power to tell the media what to say and not to say. There is a very heavily guarded and water tight barrier between the two. Where as in Turkey it is very common for the government to meddle in the editorial line of the media as it is in most of the Muslim world.

He also allowed the broadcast of a pro-terrorist channel for the PKK which was releasing violent propaganda, which pissed Turkey off, especially because it is so active in Iraq stemming the PKK in the north beside America.

It is called freedom of speech. As it stands now there are no credible links between the channel and any terrorist activities and as long as there are none, then it will continue to broadcast. The same goes for the radical Christian channels, the neo Nazi channel and so on. I dont like them but I accept that they, in a democratic society where the principle of free speech is highly guard, that they are in their right to spew their bs as long as it does not break any laws. And dont think that the Danish security forces are not watching the channel

they are and would love to shut the thing down but legally they cant.

Allowing the broadcast of a violent pro-terrorist propaganda channel also undermines NATO's entire objective in Afghanistan and Iraq; bringing an end to terrorism.

This argument is a hollow one. Anyone can claim "pro-terrorist propaganda" just because you dont agree with the message. The US uses this exact excuse to slam Al-Jazzera, a channel the US once praised funny enough. I would claim that any of the Israeli channels are propaganda channels, does that mean they should be banned?

As long as the channel in question does not break any laws, then it can do whatever it wants.. that is the principle of freedom of speech and freedom of the press and all that ugly democratic stuff.

Can Rasmussen really lead NATO, and will he contribute to peace?

He can. His job as Danish PM will be nothing like what his job as NATO General Secretary as the priorities are widely different. There are very very different priorities and goals, not to mention he will have to take into consideration every NATO members feelings and problems and not only the Danish view.

Rasmussen is one of the best political minds of his generation in Denmark and has to the bitter resentment of his political foes, been able to keep in power a right wing government in Denmark for 8 years without the help of the "center" of the Danish political scene and that is damn hard. In that time, the opposition has been defeated time and time again and gone through a bunch of leaders.

kaya'08 · Apr 4, 2009

Re: Despite Berlusconi efforts; Turkey remains cold on Rasmussen in NATO, possible Ve

PeteEU said:
Not true. The Turkish leader dislikes him personally and that is why in part Turkey has been "pissed" on his nomination and now his appointment since he got the job. The Turkish leader is a radical Muslim in sheep's clothing and it has showen its ugly head yet again. As long as he is in power (which might not be for long) then Turkey will be in the "political" void. However they had the veto power and did not use it.

Agreed. Tayyip is a muslim twat and has undermimed alot of Turkey's strong relations with allies because he has always put his "muslim interests" first before the benefits of the country, like his bitch fit at Davos against the Jews and his support for muslim countries. I had the unfortunate opportunity to study him. Yes, he has modernized and reformed Turkey in many ways, and yes the countries policies have never been looking more European the way they should be, but at the same time not only has he been undermining Turkeys non-muslim relations, but he has been undermining the countries strict secular rules that are supposed to stop islamists such as himself from ruling the country or creating laws. Thankfull he has done very little that the top court in Turkey hasnt reversed to keep the country strictly secular and non-muslim in politics, but at the same time the fact he rules the country has always kept many on edge. The only people to express concerns about the muslim cartoons are the government, everybody else do not seem to have a problem with it, paticularly opposition parties who are strictly secular personally and in politics.

What the Turks and especially their leader do not understand (that goes for a large part of the Muslim world) is that in Denmark the government has no power to tell the media what to say and not to say. There is a very heavily guarded and water tight barrier between the two. Where as in Turkey it is very common for the government to meddle in the editorial line of the media as it is in most of the Muslim world.

I have to diagree here. Though you are correct to a certain level, the government no longer intervenes with the media or freedom of media because of recent laws protecting that, and government meddeling within the media hasnt happened for over 10 years before the laws where introduced strictly safegaurding reporters. Unfortunately however, this goes to the exception of a recent fine on a media group (the government claims it ownes the country money and has used this to fine the group), however investigations are underway in Turkey to proove these allegations, and if the PM is incorrect on his conclusion, the government themselves could face a fine.

He can. His job as Danish PM will be nothing like what his job as NATO General Secretary as the priorities are widely different. There are very very different priorities and goals, not to mention he will have to take into consideration every NATO members feelings and problems and not only the Danish view.

I hope so. Though i support Rasmussens bid for general secretary, i was merely outlining possible consequences of him ruling NATO, be it good or bad.

PeteEU · Apr 4, 2009

Re: Despite Berlusconi efforts; Turkey remains cold on Rasmussen in NATO, possible Ve

kaya'08 said:
I have to diagree here. Though you are correct to a certain level, the government no longer intervenes with the media or freedom of media because of recent laws protecting that, and government meddeling within the media hasnt happened for over 10 years before the laws where introduced strictly safegaurding reporters. Unfortunately however, this goes to the exception of a recent fine on a media group (the government claims it ownes the country money and has used this to fine the group), however investigations are underway in Turkey to proove these allegations, and if the PM is incorrect on his conclusion, the government themselves could face a fine.

There are many ways a government can "influence" the media, direct and indirect. Just because there are now laws protecting the media, it does not mean that the government does not "influence" the media in one way or another. Like it or not, just having a law against something does not mean that the tradition dies out over night, especially in countries where the pillars of democracy, free speech and freedom of the press as strong as those that are use to the "old ways" and still in some way practice them. Even in Spain today there are forces that are trying to bring back the old Franco ways in every level of society, and quite a few of the old Franco ways are still around.. especially when it comes to local corruption. Of course there are laws against such things and people are finally getting punished for it, but for the last 30 years (even with the laws in place) nothing has happened.

I hope so. Though i support Rasmussens bid for general secretary, i was merely outlining possible consequences of him ruling NATO, be it good or bad.

There are consequences with any candidate. Had it been a Turk, then there would have been consequences over that. To name a few.. a Muslim as leader.. ever right winger would go ape****. Had it been an American (which it cant be, but lets just say it can), then there would have been consequences over that. There are no "perfect" candidates out there for everyone, hence you need to put in place a person that has brains and willpower to do the job and hope it works out.

kaya'08 · Apr 4, 2009

Re: Despite Berlusconi efforts; Turkey remains cold on Rasmussen in NATO, possible Ve

There are consequences with any candidate. Had it been a Turk, then there would have been consequences over that. To name a few.. a Muslim as leader.. ever right winger would go ape****. Had it been an American (which it cant be, but lets just say it can), then there would have been consequences over that. There are no "perfect" candidates out there for everyone, hence you need to put in place a person that has brains and willpower to do the job and hope it works out.

Lol yeah and had it been a brit the whole of Europe would have gone ape****, the racist bastards. You can just tell from the amount of votes we get in Eurovision we wouldnt stand a chance in getting the position to lead NATO =D
How comes Americans cant lead it? I didnt realize that.

PeteEU · Apr 5, 2009

Re: Despite Berlusconi efforts; Turkey remains cold on Rasmussen in NATO, possible Ve

kaya'08 said:
Lol yeah and had it been a brit the whole of Europe would have gone ape****, the racist bastards. You can just tell from the amount of votes we get in Eurovision we wouldnt stand a chance in getting the position to lead NATO =D

The Eurovision has more to do with taste. We also dont vote for the Germans, because it sounds horrible

And now with the whole of the slavic world in the contest, we wont see anyone but an Eastern European country win until the system is changed to be more fair.

But when it comes to Turkey, much of the animosity against Turkey by the Europeans is not racist per say (as we hate you based on your skin colour or religon or even your culture) but has deep set roots in how Turks have acted in Europe (not government but the people) and the reaction to that. I can go more into it, but you wont like my answers I fear

and no I aint a racist and in fact I have Turkish and Kurdish friends.. even dated a Kurdish girl once.

How comes Americans cant lead it? I didnt realize that.

because the head of the military aspect of NATO is always an American. That was the original deal of NATO .. Military head = American, Political = non American.

kaya'08 · Apr 5, 2009

Re: Despite Berlusconi efforts; Turkey remains cold on Rasmussen in NATO, possible Ve

But when it comes to Turkey, much of the animosity against Turkey by the Europeans is not racist per say (as we hate you based on your skin colour or religon or even your culture) but has deep set roots in how Turks have acted in Europe (not government but the people) and the reaction to that. I can go more into it, but you wont like my answers I fear and no I aint a racist and in fact I have Turkish and Kurdish friends.. even dated a Kurdish girl once.

Lol im no nationalist i dont mind

Skin colour

Im not that black am i?

because the head of the military aspect of NATO is always an American. That was the original deal of NATO .. Military head = American, Political = non American.

Ah right

But when it comes to Turkey, much of the animosity against Turkey by the Europeans is not racist per say (as we hate you based on your skin colour or religon or even your culture) but has deep set roots in how Turks have acted in Europe (not government but the people) and the reaction to that.

Yeah i hear there right thieving bastards in Germany.

PeteEU · Apr 5, 2009

Re: Despite Berlusconi efforts; Turkey remains cold on Rasmussen in NATO, possible Ve

kaya'08 said:
Lol im no nationalist i dont mind

Skin colour

Im not that black am i?

Yea you are wayyyyy dark.. compared to an albino that is

Yeah i hear there right thieving bastards in Germany.

And most other areas where Turks have settled in Europe in large numbers. And that is exactly part of the problem, the few have given all turks a bad name. But to be fair it is our own faults that our laws were so easily exploited by Turks for so long.

kaya'08 · Apr 5, 2009

Re: Despite Berlusconi efforts; Turkey remains cold on Rasmussen in NATO, possible Ve

PeteEU said:
And most other areas where Turks have settled in Europe in large numbers. And that is exactly part of the problem, the few have given all turks a bad name. But to be fair it is our own faults that our laws were so easily exploited by Turks for so long.

lol what can i say. The problem here is, they havent integrated. Thats partially the governments fault, and the turks aswell. Perhaps if they did become more integrated crime amongst the Turkish society wouldnt be so prevalent in Europe. Its undoubtably a social problem. Unfortunately the ones who come to Europe are from the conservative Eastern provinces of Turkey where Turks tend to be of a darker shade which would explain my colour as my family originated from Western Turkey; the area around Istanbul in a place called Izmir after the bosphorus bridge. They also tend to be very poor and uneducated in those areas of the eastern provinces so they come to Europe as kaniving thieves giving the rest of em a bad name, which is very unfortunate. Its a bit like Russia, think about it this way; Russia's power base is based in Europe and it concentrates all its influence and power there. The east of Russia attached to China however is far poorer and has very little affects outside of its boarders. Turkey is like that; towards the european side, it gets less conservative, more secularist and more developed. The further east you go, on the Syrian, Iranian and Iraqi boarder, thats where all the poor are. Unfortunately the country hasnt yet got to the stage where it can fully develope all the provinces to a respectable standard, however id say a good part of Turkey is already there.