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Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

Goshin said:
This is a little silly.

Do you carry your keyring everywhere you go when you leave home? Why? So you have your keys when you need them, of course.

Similarly, a gun is a tool with a different purpose. You never know when you may need it, so you keep it with you always. Criminals don't call you up on the phone and say "By the way, old chap, I was planning to kill you and rape your wife and daughter, and wanted to schedule a time. Would Tuesday do?"

G.
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Sorry, I dont need a keyring to feel safe andsecure. Your comparison is silly.

A gun is a weapon, not a tool. A screwdriver is a tool.
 
FlyOnTheWall said:
Sorry, I dont need a keyring to feel safe andsecure. Your comparison is silly.

A gun is a weapon, not a tool. A screwdriver is a tool.
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You either missed my point, or deliberately ignored it.

Carrying a gun all the time does not necessarily mean the person has an irrational attachment to it as a "Security blanket".
In most cases, carrying 24/7 means a person has become aware than the world is not a safe place, that criminals may attack anywhere at any time, and that being trained, equipped and ready if that moment comes is a positive benefit for themselves, their dependents, and society.

I call a gun a tool because to me that is what it is. It is a tool for neutralizing threats. I neither love guns nor hate them, in fact there's very little emotional content involved at all. My saws-all is for cutting things. My truck is for hauling things. My guns are for target shooting, hunting, and as a last line of defense against criminals when avoidance/evasion fails.

If you do not wish to go armed, that is your choice and I would not try to force you. Please give me the same courtesy and don't try to disarm me under the color of law.

G.
 
Goshin said:
Fly, I would say that Goobieman was trying to make the distinction between
1. A person with an unreasonable fear of death or harm, vs
2. a person who is not afraid to die, but is in no hurry to die at the hands of a violent criminal or other premature method.
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Glad you could decipher his gibberish....I don't care to try.
 
stevenb said:
So, what exactly is your point? Or are you just trying to twist **** to your own little view?
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The point was clearly seen which is exactly why you changed your original statement.
 
Goshin said:
You either missed my point, or deliberately ignored it.

Carrying a gun all the time does not necessarily mean the person has an irrational attachment to it as a "Security blanket".
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I never said they had an irrational attachment, I said the gun is a crutch. I also mentioned religion, however I did not claim that religious people have an irrational attachment to a supreme being. Please refrain from misrepresenting my words, it weakens your point.

Goshin said:
In most cases, carrying 24/7 means a person has become aware than the world is not a safe place, that criminals may attack anywhere at any time, and that being trained, equipped and ready if that moment comes is a positive benefit for themselves, their dependents, and society.
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I have been in the world for 48 years without carrying a gun, and I have not been attacked by any criminal. Guess I have been lucky.

In most cases, carrying 24/7 means a person is paranoid that evil is out to get him. That person probably has some emotional disorder which was brought on by a traumatic event.

Goshin said:
I call a gun a tool because to me that is what it is. It is a tool for neutralizing threats.
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A caulking gun is a tool, a hand gun is a weapon.

Goshin said:
I neither love guns nor hate them, in fact there's very little emotional content involved at all.
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Great. Same here. I have guns knives and bows. They all have their purposes.

Goshin said:
My saws-all is for cutting things. My truck is for hauling things. My guns are for target shooting, hunting, and as a last line of defense against criminals when avoidance/evasion fails.
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If you were to use the sawzall to attack or defend from another, it would be a weapon. If you use your truck to run over people, that is a weapon. If you use your gun to shoot off a lock, that is a tool. Please try to understand that there is a difference between the words "tool" and "weapon."

Goshin said:
If you do not wish to go armed, that is your choice and I would not try to force you. Please give me the same courtesy and don't try to disarm me under the color of law.

G.
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Straw man. Not once in this thread have I advocated laws to ban weapons.
 
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stevenb said:
I don't know if you've been paying attention lately.. but the world isn't exactly a safe harbor of love and peace these days.

I carry a firearm to protect myself and other's in the real world, where I've lived for most of my life.
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Nobody said the world is a safe harbor so that response doesn't make much sense.
 
Goobieman said:
There's been no tragic event in my life to make me believe I am safer with a gun that without.
Does that mean I am using a gun as a crutch, too?
What do YOU use?
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Since that post wasn't directed at anything you said this makes no sense.
 
Goshin said:
This is a little silly.

Do you carry your keyring everywhere you go when you leave home? Why? So you have your keys when you need them, of course.

Similarly, a gun is a tool with a different purpose. You never know when you may need it, so you keep it with you always. Criminals don't call you up on the phone and say "By the way, old chap, I was planning to kill you and rape your wife and daughter, and wanted to schedule a time. Would Tuesday do?"

G.
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The logic of extremism necessitates an inability to see the absurdity of comparing keys to guns.
 
Goshin said:
Fly, I would say that Goobieman was trying to make the distinction between
1. A person with an unreasonable fear of death or harm, vs
2. a person who is not afraid to die, but is in no hurry to die at the hands of a violent criminal or other premature method.

Do you step out in front of oncoming traffic? No? Why, you said you aren't afraid to die? Illustrating absurdity with absurdity, you see. I am not afraid to die, but I don't step out in front of oncoming traffic and I do pack a gun. I am in no particular hurry. People who are in a hurry to die are called "suicidal".
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He didn't say he was in a hurry to die so this response doesn't make sense.
 
FlyOnTheWall said:
Sorry, I dont need a keyring to feel safe andsecure. Your comparison is silly.

A gun is a weapon, not a tool. A screwdriver is a tool.
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Yes.

When I was thirteen a neighbor of mine used a tool, what you call a "screwdriver", to skewer the skull of an old lady who wouldn't give him money.

A decade ago a baglady in Venice beach used her handy dandy screwtwisting device to protect her valuable shopping cart from thieves, aka cops. The cops used their tools, because they're big brave specimens of the best cops can be, and shot her.

Guns are a subsets of tools classed also as weapons. As can be seen, the boundaries are blurred.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Yes.

When I was thirteen a neighbor of mine used a tool, what you call a "screwdriver", to skewer the skull of an old lady who wouldn't give him money.

A decade ago a baglady in Venice beach used her handy dandy screwtwisting device to protect her valuable shopping cart from thieves, aka cops. The cops used their tools, because they're big brave specimens of the best cops can be, and shot her.

Guns are a subsets of tools classed also as weapons. As can be seen, the boundaries are blurred.
Click to expand...



Very blurred indeed. The other day I was changing my oil and ask a neighbor if it was better to use a .38 Special or a .44 Magnum to remove the oil plan plug. Then today I needed to take the chemical injector off of a pressure washer and used a 12 gauge shotgun instead of a 9/16 wrench because the two were designed to basically do the same thing. Very blurry lines indeed.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Yes.

When I was thirteen a neighbor of mine used a tool, what you call a "screwdriver", to skewer the skull of an old lady who wouldn't give him money.

A decade ago a baglady in Venice beach used her handy dandy screwtwisting device to protect her valuable shopping cart from thieves, aka cops. The cops used their tools, because they're big brave specimens of the best cops can be, and shot her.

Guns are a subsets of tools classed also as weapons. As can be seen, the boundaries are blurred.
Click to expand...
I already demonstrated how tools and weapons are interchangeable in post 230. My hand can be a weapon or tool depending on the workload.

It was stated that a gun was a tool which was used for neutralizing threats. When one neutralizes a threat with a gun, one is projecting retaliation with bodily harm, and in this case the gun is a weapon.
 
SkyCore said:
Very blurred indeed. The other day I was changing my oil and ask a neighbor if it was better to use a .38 Special or a .44 Magnum to remove the oil plan plug. Then today I needed to take the chemical injector off of a pressure washer and used a 12 gauge shotgun instead of a 9/16 wrench because the two were designed to basically do the same thing. Very blurry lines indeed.
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I heard that guns were very effective in evacuating dried nasal mucus. :lol:
 
FlyOnTheWall said:
I never said they had an irrational attachment, I said the gun is a crutch.
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Is a screwdriver also a crutch? Am I paranoid about vehicle breakdowns if a carry a box of screwdrivers in my truck (I do)? Or am I being realistic about the possibility of a breakdown, and the likelihood that a few tools and some skills could enable me to get back on the road in short order?

Yes, yes, I know a gun is a weapon, not a tool. Well, to me it is a tool: a tool is a device used to solve a problem, when your bare hands won't suffice. I would prefer to discuss substance rather than semantics.

I have been in the world for 48 years without carrying a gun, and I have not been attacked by any criminal. Guess I have been lucky.
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Yes, you have. I'm in my 40's also. I've been attacked; I have family members who have been attacked; I lost a dear friend once to a robbery/murder. I scared off one pair of would-be muggers with a pistol...who probably would not have been impressed if I had told them I was a black belt. You've been very lucky indeed.



In most cases, carrying 24/7 means a person is paranoid that evil is out to get him. That person probably has some emotional disorder which was brought on by a traumatic event.
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I disagree. In some few cases you might be correct, but my experience argues that it is not so for the majority of people who carry daily. See above... there is a difference between making a rational, informed decision based on experience, and simply reacting to emotional trauma.


Great. Same here. I have guns knives and bows. They all have their purposes.
Straw man. Not once in this thread have I advocated laws to ban weapons.
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I am glad to hear it. It was not my intention to present a straw man argument, but rather to throw it out there and see what you said about it. I am pleased that you do not wish to restrict second amendment rights.

G.
 
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FlyOnTheWall said:
I already demonstrated how tools and weapons are interchangeable in post 230. My hand can be a weapon or tool depending on the workload.

It was stated that a gun was a tool which was used for neutralizing threats. When one neutralizes a threat with a gun, one is projecting retaliation with bodily harm, and in this case the gun is a weapon.
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I beg to differ. Defense and retaliation are two seperate issues.

Retaliation is "getting even" after someone has hurt you. The law frowns on this.

Defense is "preventing unlawful harm." In most states the law supports this.

I would rather discuss substance than continuing to bandy semantics however.

G.
 
Goshin said:
I am glad to hear it. It was not my intention to present a straw man argument, but rather to throw it out there and see what you said about it. I am pleased that you do not wish to restrict second amendment rights.

G.
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lol

I never said that I did not wish to restrict second amendment rights, I said "not once in this thread have I advocated laws to ban weapons".

:)
 
FlyOnTheWall said:
lol

I never said that I did not wish to restrict second amendment rights, I said "not once in this thread have I advocated laws to ban weapons".

:)
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Very well then. Perhaps you would like to clarify your position, and we can discuss it.





G.
 
SkyCore said:
Very blurred indeed. The other day I was changing my oil and ask a neighbor if it was better to use a .38 Special or a .44 Magnum to remove the oil plan plug. Then today I needed to take the chemical injector off of a pressure washer and used a 12 gauge shotgun instead of a 9/16 wrench because the two were designed to basically do the same thing. Very blurry lines indeed.
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I find those particular tools to be more use when I discover my wife has taken my truck for an oil change instead of doing it herself. Last time that happened, I had to drill the plug out and re-tap the hole. A .38 would have made a fair hole very quickly and then I would only have had to weld on a new boss.

Next time that happens, I'm going to save a lot of work...

You people really get hung up on the fact that the definition of the word "tool" includes firearms, don't you?

Tools are material objects used to exert greater force than the bare hands can apply themselves. Occasionally the little lady getting dragged off by a possible rapist is very happy to have a little .22 "tool" in her pocket or purse. Yes, I'm talking about a specific incident. She pointed her tool over her shoulder and applied enough force to not only make him let go, but he was never going to grab anyone again.

Another man was backing his car out of his driveway when a thug ripped open his door and tried to pull him out. That man's tool allowed him to remain in the driver's seat...all the way. He told the thug, who wasn't mortally wounded, that if he tried to get up that he'd use his tool again.

Then there was the nice case I read about in good old gun grabbin' Australia, where a little girl, nineteen or so, was attacked by a man with a knife trying to drag her out of her car. She didn't have a tool, so she suffered permanent scarring and the criminal didn't even get hurt.

Tools are handy things...when they're ready to hand. One cannot morally deny law abiding citizens the use of tools that you happen to be afraid of because the merely gives the people who are going to be violent a bigger edge.

It's not the law that makes a 90-lb woman the equal to a 250-lb would-be rapist, it's the one pound of steel and gunpowder and lead in her hands.
 
FlyOnTheWall said:
I already demonstrated how tools and weapons are interchangeable in post 230. My hand can be a weapon or tool depending on the workload.
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No. By definition, your hand cannot be a tool.

It has tool-like aspects, being comprised of identifiable levers and all that, but a natural human hand, of meat and bone, is not a tool...

FlyOnTheWall said:
It was stated that a gun was a tool which was used for neutralizing threats. When one neutralizes a threat with a gun, one is projecting retaliation with bodily harm, and in this case the gun is a weapon.
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A weapon is a class of tools.

Get done with it already.
 
Established fact: virtually every state that has enacted shall-issue (easy to get) concealed-carry permit laws has experienced a drop in violent crime. All citizens of the state benefit from this, as criminals do not know who is armed and who isn't.

Established fact: the Second Amendment recognized the natural right to keep and bear arms as an individual right.

Established fact: guns in the hands of private citizens are used to prevent crime far more often than any guns (lawfully or unlawfully obtained) are used to commit crime. The most conservative, low-ball figures quoted in gov't studies are 60,000 to 90,000 defensive uses per year; some pro-gun orgs claim evidence for over a million defensive uses per year. In around 99% of these incidents, no shots are fired; the criminal flees or surrenders when confronted by an armed citizen.

Established fact: the violent crime rate among lawful permit holders is so low as to be virtually zero.

Established fact: Cities with draconian anti-gun laws also have extremely high violent crime rates. Criminals like disarmed victims.



G.
 
Scarecrow Akhbar said:
It's not the law that makes a 90-lb woman the equal to a 250-lb would-be rapist, it's the one pound of steel and gunpowder and lead in her hands.
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The gun control nazis have yet to understand the simple truth in the saying "God created men. Sam Colt made them equal."
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
So we know this, that one of the instincual responses is to freeze. Are you suggesting we should accept our lot in life and just freeze and bear our necks to the "Wolf"?
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I am suggesting that this is beyond conscious thought and is instinctual, based on personality and situation.


I am advocating a different way, just the way we teach about condoms, sex, drugs, etc, why could we not teach ourselves not to freeze.
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The three "F's" response is instinctual. One cannot teach instinct. One can modify it based on the situation. One who freezes, for example, may not always freeze. It depends on their situation.

As you describe it it surely is a conscious decision. You made the "more likley" comment, indicating indeed in your scenario, one chose to freeze because they thought it more likley to move would cause death.
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No, Reverend. Instinctively, it would be more likely to freeze because of the situation. Thought does not come into play. Instinct based on personality and the scenario, does.


You are wrong. A moving target is a much harder object to hit than a stationary one .
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A moving target in an enclosed area draws attention to that target.


Tell those 17 total shot, how they made the "safer" decision.
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Instinctively, it may have been the best of a no-win situation.
 
Goshin said:
Captain, a person's fight/flight/freeze responses can be modified. Military basic training and police academy trainers do it to recruits all the time. Conditioning someone to control their instinctive reactions and channel them into a deliberate and useful plan of action is part of what distinguishes the well-trained from the untrained.

Character, courage, and innate aggression are factors, but these can be modified by training also.

G.
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This does not change the instinct. It modifies the situation which changes the response based on this modification. Even you said, "Conditioning someone to control their instinctive reactions" alters the situation, but does not change the instinct. The instinct is still in tact, but a different response occurs because, the training has altered the situation.
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
I am suggesting that this is beyond conscious thought and is instinctual, based on personality and situation.




The three "F's" response is instinctual. One cannot teach instinct. One can modify it based on the situation. One who freezes, for example, may not always freeze. It depends on their situation.
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This completley muddles your point. obfuscation? What is your point here? I already suggested this.


No, Reverend. Instinctively, it would be more likely to freeze because of the situation. Thought does not come into play. Instinct based on personality and the scenario, does.
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So again, I ask, are these peoples victims of thier instinct? and there is no hope of society to break this? or do you see no problem with people "freezing"






A moving target in an enclosed area draws attention to that target.
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how about you stick to the psychology side, and I will concentrate on the tactics side.

Sure it may draw more attention, but standing there made these people more deader.


it is shocking to see people actually advocating capitulation and freezing.


Instinctively, it may have been the best of a no-win situation.
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The best? really? I pity you. you have "given up" and the wolf is no where is sight....

"instinctivly" the best thing to do, is to win this gunfight by all means neccessary...


please tell me, how was it the "best" for lets say 10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17 to sit there and wait to be shot? they just saw what 1-9 got... how was this the "best of a no-win situation".......


This mindset is so pitiful.....
 
CaptainCourtesy said:
This does not change the instinct. It modifies the situation which changes the response based on this modification. Even you said, "Conditioning someone to control their instinctive reactions" alters the situation, but does not change the instinct. The instinct is still in tact, but a different response occurs because, the training has altered the situation.
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So wait, if thier "instinct" is to freeze, but they trained someone not to freeze, then how does them no longer freezing not change the instinct?


:lol:
 
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