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Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

I would like to add, the Captain spent several posts dishonestly claiming my point was that people who choose not to carry guns are meek. Specifically this post:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057981162-post61.html

"Anyone who chooses to not have a gun is being or has been taught to be meek."


Even after correcting his error he insisted on fighting me on this point I did not make. Not only have I posted my position clearly several times, I linked an article, a you tube, and other information, that most others got except for skycore, will rockwell, and Captian"Courtesy". He then tried to morph his statement into something else.

This and only this is the issue regarding my pointing out the Captain's blatant dishonesty in this discussion with me. If he wants to continue to obfuscate in order to weasel out of his baiting behavior so be it. I care not. But when he follows through with his threats he made to me in PM regarding calling ME dishonest in other threads (has happened already) because I laughed at his demand for a public apology to him. Lets remember when the **** hits the fan, and everyone is all pissed off. THIS is were the Captain started it.


I will tell him here now publicly. You sir, will get what you give. Please act accordingly.


The discussion and a good description of my true feelings on this topic, to which I was attacked dishonestly over, can be continued at the link below. Lets endeavor to keep this one sane.


http://www.debatepolitics.com/Death-Penalty/46491-guns-sheepdogs-nutcases-victims.html

Refuting all of the dishonesty in the above post would be rather simple, as would showing how, as usual, it was the Reverend who started this. However, this is not appropriate for this thread, so...

Moderator's Warning:
You will cease these kinds of posts, upstairs, Reverend, or there will be further consequences.
 
Sounds like an admission of being paralyzed by fear for life, from one event.

Maybe I'm retarded, but I'm not following you.

Paralyzed by fear? Of course anyone that endures such situations is afraid. But paralyzed by fear from one event?

Is this in connection with me carrying a firearm with me basically anywhere I go?

I was a boyscout, I learned to try and always be prepared. I was put in a situation I wasn't prepared for, but still managed to come out of alive. So I prepared for that situation / anything like that situation again in a responsible manner.. so I don't know where you're heading with this comment.
 
Basic human psychology


Fight or flight. absolutely, the point is, when there was no flight available, these who i am sure had some able bodied people around them froze. maybe it is psychology. so what. Does this mean we can't overcome it? perhaps I am not as defeatist as you.

Tell me do people ever fight back? Do you think there are ANY socilogical conditioning here?

The response is fight, flight, or freeze. And no, we don't overcome it. We respond based on personality and on survival instinct. It is not a choice. It is instinctual based on the most likely chance of survival.

And of course people fight back, depending on the situation. If the best chance of survival is to fight back, often that is what the person will do.

freezing gave the greatest chance


WHAT?!?!?!?... :lol: freezing gave the wolf this day easy targets. this is a gunfight, you have the rest of your life to win a gunfight

A man is there to kill everyone he sees, do you really believe the best solution for survival is to "hold still"? :shock::rofl

Yes. It is a better opportunity than fleeing, when no flight is available, and fighting, when this will draw attention to one. The instinct is to not assume that the man had lots of reload options. This is not instinctual. To freeze is based both on shock and on not drawing attention to one's self.
 
This is a lie. you initially claimed my position was that those who chose not to carry a gun are meek. I explained how you were wrong numerous times numerous ways. this is where you started posting.

I'm not doing this with you, Reverend. I have asked for clarification, and shown where you have erred. Everything you've posted has confirmed my position. Grossman confirms my position.

Instead of continuing to perpetuate this, Reverend, try this. Answer two simple and direct questions:

Do you believe that those who do not chose to carry a gun, and do not carry a gun are meek?

If you do not, please describe them.

In this instance, you made statements where you made similar statements re the article you dismissed in your perpetration of that lie you told about my position and ran with.

No, Reverend, I demonstrated how what I said was different from what Grossman said, and that your accusation was false.



:lol: you know, you could have said that.... but lets review.

I did. It was pretty clear the first time, too.



let me ask you, by your sentence structure, you are stating people fear the "sheepdogs" teeth. not the "wolves in sheeps clothing" if you made an error in grammar let me know. I unlike you will accept that you meant something more than what and how you wrote or something else entirelly, I wont bait you dishonestly with this for the next 4 pages. thanks

No, Reverend, my grammar was just fine. I said both and meant both. Sheep fear wolves that pretend to be sheepdogs, and the teeth that the sheepdogs have. Not the sheepdogs themselves. And, I, unlike you, responded to your request for clarification, clearly, and accepted your comment "perhaps you made an error", courteously, which you did not.
 
Right, while I am wrong fighting for my life if we ever find ourselves together, you just "hold still"..... :lol:


There is no survival in your "psychology" argument, there is only slaughter.

The freeze response is instinctual. If the situation was one where fighting or fleeing would more likely result in your death, you too would freeze. This is not a conscious decision. It is a survival instinct. Whether one is actually killed is irrelevant. One does not react to an outcome, since that outcome has not occurred, yet.
 
I've already had my trial by fire, not in a massacre such as the one we're talking about.. but in a similar situation.

I know how I will act, I care not how others act.

I will do what it takes to survive, or help others survive.

I'm not a flee'er or a freeze'er.

My experience was the primary reason for my getting, and carrying a ccw firearm at all times... irregardless of where I am.

You are what you are depending on your instinctual response to each situation. Having a gun will change that situation, as will not having one.
 
I'm not doing this with you, Reverend. I have asked for clarification, and shown where you have erred. Everything you've posted has confirmed my position. Grossman confirms my position.

Instead of continuing to perpetuate this, Reverend, try this. Answer two simple and direct questions:

Do you believe that those who do not chose to carry a gun, and do not carry a gun are meek?


If you do not, please describe them.

Strawman, show me where I ever claimed this.


I am really hesitant to say any more to you given your warnings.



No, Reverend, I demonstrated how what I said was different from what Grossman said, and that your accusation was false.





I did. It was pretty clear the first time, too.





No, Reverend, my grammar was just fine. I said both and meant both. Sheep fear wolves that pretend to be sheepdogs, and the teeth that the sheepdogs have. Not the sheepdogs themselves. And, I, unlike you, responded to your request for clarification, clearly, and accepted your comment "perhaps you made an error", courteously, which you did not.


Again, I am going to not respond to you, since your warnings were very clear.
 
Maybe I'm retarded, but I'm not following you.

Paralyzed by fear? Of course anyone that endures such situations is afraid. But paralyzed by fear from one event?

Is this in connection with me carrying a firearm with me basically anywhere I go?

I was a boyscout, I learned to try and always be prepared. I was put in a situation I wasn't prepared for, but still managed to come out of alive. So I prepared for that situation / anything like that situation again in a responsible manner.. so I don't know where you're heading with this comment.


Why change what was said?

(Stevenb)
My experience was the primary reason for my getting, and carrying a ccw firearm at all times... irregardless of where I am."
 
The gun is a tool, what is a shame gun or no gun is our society laying down to the wolf. how does 14 people get shot by 1 guy with 2 handguns? did anyone even attempt to fight back? the articles talk about hiding and cowering......

This is a shame.

Sorry for going so far back in the thread but you have made this comment twice and I dont see where anybody called you on it. The original posted article stated the people in the basement were hiding and cowering, not the ones being murdered in the classroom. You have taken the writers words, words which we don't even know to be accurate, and have attempted to put them back on the murdered people as if they were running around the room hiding and cowering.

I find this whole discussion quite sad because what you are doing is blaming the victims for not fighting back, when you have no idea what took place in the classroom other than the end result. You keep returning to the "meek" word because it is your only defense in an otherwise defenseless stance. You have built a straw man of weakness based on the fact the victims died. You have spit on the graves of the victims, and that is what is truly disturbing. No sheepdog would attack the victims like you have because sheepdogs need the meek in order to be sheepdogs. You are no sheepdog.
 
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People fall to the level of their training. Maybe 2-14 had no training meaning that freezing is all they had left. People are always being told to not be a hero because it could get more people hurt in these situations.
 
The freeze response is instinctual.


So we know this, that one of the instincual responses is to freeze. Are you suggesting we should accept our lot in life and just freeze and bear our necks to the "Wolf"?


I am advocating a different way, just the way we teach about condoms, sex, drugs, etc, why could we not teach ourselves not to freeze.

If the situation was one where fighting or fleeing would more likely result in your death, you too would freeze. This is not a conscious decision. It is a survival instinct. Whether one is actually killed is irrelevant. One does not react to an outcome, since that outcome has not occurred, yet.



As you describe it it surely is a conscious decision. You made the "more likley" comment, indicating indeed in your scenario, one chose to freeze because they thought it more likley to move would cause death.


You are wrong. A moving target is a much harder object to hit than a stationary one .


Tell those 17 total shot, how they made the "safer" decision.
 
Why change what was said?

(Stevenb)
My experience was the primary reason for my getting, and carrying a ccw firearm at all times... irregardless of where I am."

So, what exactly is your point? Or are you just trying to twist **** to your own little view?
 
So, what exactly is your point? Or are you just trying to twist **** to your own little view?
He twisted nothing. I wanted to make the same comment when I read your post. Apparently something tragic happened in your life that made you believe you were not safe unless you were carrying a gun. Some peeps use religion as a crutch, you use a gun.
 
He twisted nothing. I wanted to make the same comment when I read your post. Apparently something tragic happened in your life that made you believe you were not safe unless you were carrying a gun. Some peeps use religion as a crutch, you use a gun.

I don't know if you've been paying attention lately.. but the world isn't exactly a safe harbor of love and peace these days.

I carry a firearm to protect myself and other's in the real world, where I've lived for most of my life.
 
He twisted nothing. I wanted to make the same comment when I read your post. Apparently something tragic happened in your life that made you believe you were not safe unless you were carrying a gun. Some peeps use religion as a crutch, you use a gun.
There's been no tragic event in my life to make me believe I am safer with a gun that without.
Does that mean I am using a gun as a crutch, too?
What do YOU use?
 
I don't know if you've been paying attention lately.. but the world isn't exactly a safe harbor of love and peace these days.

I carry a firearm to protect myself and other's in the real world, where I've lived for most of my life.

The world is what you make of it

Honestly, these days are not any different from those days. The only thing that has changed is man has become more proficient at killing.

I have been paying attention....

you go GI Joe
 
There's been no tragic event in my life to make me believe I am safer with a gun that without.
Does that mean I am using a gun as a crutch, too?
What do YOU use?

No crutch.

no need, I live my life one day at a time. Also, unlike others, I am not afraid of death or dying.
 
No crutch.
No need, I live my life one day at a time. Also, unlike others, I am not afraid of death or dying.
Hmm.
How does not wanting to die (or be injured or have things taken from you) equate to a fear of death or injury or aving things haven from you?
 
Could you rephrase this so it makes sense?
It does make sense.

You state that you are not afraid of death or dying, and as such do not need some 'crutch' to defend yourself.

Does the desire to not die necessarily come from the fear of dying?
 
It does make sense.

You state that you are not afraid of death or dying, and as such do not need some 'crutch' to defend yourself.

Does the desire to not die necessarily come from the fear of dying?

Hmm.
How does not wanting to die (or be injured or have things taken from you) equate to a fear of death or injury or aving things haven from you?
The bolded part makes absolutely no sense. I refuse to comment on a post where a part of it is gibberish.
 
There's been no tragic event in my life to make me believe I am safer with a gun that without.
Does that mean I am using a gun as a crutch, too?
I don't know. I wrote the crutch comment to a person who states he and his weapon go EVERYWHERE together "irregardless" (sic) of of where he is....like Linus and his blanket

Are you and your gun inseparable?
 
I don't know. I wrote the crutch comment to a person who states he and his weapon go EVERYWHERE together "irregardless" (sic) of of where he is....like Linus and his blanket

Are you and your gun inseparable?


This is a little silly.

Do you carry your keyring everywhere you go when you leave home? Why? So you have your keys when you need them, of course.

Similarly, a gun is a tool with a different purpose. You never know when you may need it, so you keep it with you always. Criminals don't call you up on the phone and say "By the way, old chap, I was planning to kill you and rape your wife and daughter, and wanted to schedule a time. Would Tuesday do?"

G.
 
The bolded part makes absolutely no sense. I refuse to comment on a post where a part of it is gibberish.


Fly, I would say that Goobieman was trying to make the distinction between
1. A person with an unreasonable fear of death or harm, vs
2. a person who is not afraid to die, but is in no hurry to die at the hands of a violent criminal or other premature method.

Do you step out in front of oncoming traffic? No? Why, you said you aren't afraid to die? Illustrating absurdity with absurdity, you see. I am not afraid to die, but I don't step out in front of oncoming traffic and I do pack a gun. I am in no particular hurry. People who are in a hurry to die are called "suicidal".
 
The freeze response is instinctual. If the situation was one where fighting or fleeing would more likely result in your death, you too would freeze. This is not a conscious decision. It is a survival instinct. Whether one is actually killed is irrelevant. One does not react to an outcome, since that outcome has not occurred, yet.


Captain, a person's fight/flight/freeze responses can be modified. Military basic training and police academy trainers do it to recruits all the time. Conditioning someone to control their instinctive reactions and channel them into a deliberate and useful plan of action is part of what distinguishes the well-trained from the untrained.

Character, courage, and innate aggression are factors, but these can be modified by training also.

G.
 
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