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Reports: 4 shot, hostages taken in Binghamton, NY

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
ok if you and skycore say so... :ssst:


http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ges-taken-binghamton-ny-7.html#post1057981365
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I was never speaking about the
"People let themselves get shot"

line. I was talking about how you said:


"You also build a strawman, I never said that people choosing not to have a gun are meak. Get back to me when you want to be honest in our discussion."


You never said that? Well, you did say:



(Posted by RH)
"Here 14 people let themselves get shot, not only was no one armed, but words like "cower" and "hid" are the words used here. it dismays me to know end that we teach ourselves to be meek when the wolf comes for the slaughter.... "


So you point out nobody was armed then state it's because we teach ourselves to be meek when the wolf comes, then have the audacity to claim you never said that? If anyone around here is using a strawman it's you because I never had a single comment about your "they let themselves get shot" garbage.
 
SkyCore said:
I was never speaking about the
"People let themselves get shot"

line. I was talking about how you said:


"You also build a strawman, I never said that people choosing not to have a gun are meak. Get back to me when you want to be honest in our discussion."


You never said that? Well, you did say:



(Posted by RH)
"Here 14 people let themselves get shot, not only was no one armed, but words like "cower" and "hid" are the words used here. it dismays me to know end that we teach ourselves to be meek when the wolf comes for the slaughter.... "


So you point out nobody was armed then state it's because we teach ourselves to be meek when the wolf comes, then have the audacity to claim you never said that? If anyone around here is using a strawman it's you because I never had a single comment about your "they let themselves get shot" garbage.
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so are you always this obtuse? You and captain can keep taking my statement out of context and use it to bait and troll me all you want, ignoring my clear explainaitions, you are not here for honest debate.


In case you still want to pretend I have never explained my postion:


watch this story about how sheep (in the sense of my other link) like you sat there "put there head down" and let themselves be shot, and listen to this sheepdog and her story.

YouTube - Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment!
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
so are you always this obtuse? You and captain can keep taking my statement out of context and use it to bait and troll me all you want, ignoring my clear explainaitions, you are not here for honest debate.


In case you still want to pretend I have never explained my postion:


watch this story about how sheep (in the sense of my other link) like you sat there "put there head down" and let themselves be shot, and listen to this sheepdog and her story.

YouTube - Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment!
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Well I guess it's easier to accuse others of being obtuse and lying. It's just mindblowing you defined the unarmed victims as being meek because they weren't armed then deny saying that when called on it. We have our own personal Bill Clinton saying the equivalent of "I did not have sexual relations with Ms Lewinsky"

I'm embarrassed for people when they do this stuff.
 
So now you're saying it's not enough that you have a constitutional right to own firearms, you're saying that everyone should carry guns, and that way there would be no more violence.

It reminds me of an incident that I had on a road in Florida outside a ghost town named Fort Lonesome. I was on a long straight road when I came up behind a pickup truck. I passed the pickup truck and came to a stop light about a mile farther on. I was stopped at the light when the pickup truck pulled up behind me and a big guy with no shirt jumped out of the truck and came up to my window. He didn't like being passed. He wanted me to get out of the car.

You're saying people like him should be carrying guns. You're saying I should have had a gun, so I could have killed him right through my window. I don't think you've thought this through. If you want to collect guns fine, nobody's going to take them away from you. The second amendment protects your right to own firearms. But don't go telling the rest of us that everyone should be carrying guns, to shoot their way out of confrontations. You have already demonstrated your irresponsibility by refusing to acknowledge the societal hazards of gun ownership. Don't compound it now by trying to bring back the Wild West.

If you are really the mature firearms enthusiasts that you claim to be, why don't you put some thought into how we keep a certified nut job like this Vietnamese man from gathering and using an arsenal of weapons? That would be really useful.
 
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SkyCore said:
Well I guess it's easier to accuse others of being obtuse and lying. It's just mindblowing you defined the unarmed victims as being meek because they weren't armed then deny saying that when called on it. We have our own personal Bill Clinton saying the equivalent of "I did not have sexual relations with Ms Lewinsky"

I'm embarrassed for people when they do this stuff.
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this makes you a prevaricator. Please. Stop lying, you're embarrassing yourself.


I have clarified my statement so that even the simplest of people can grasp my concept at least 3 separate times. Why do you refuse to adress this?
 
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WillRockwell said:
So now you're saying it's not enough that you have a constitutional right to own firearms, you're saying that everyone should carry guns, and that way there would be no more violence.
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This is a lie. Are you jumping on the Sky-Captain bandwagon of lies? :rofl

It reminds me of an incident that I had on a road in Florida outside a ghost town named Fort Lonesome. I was on a long straight road when I came up behind a pickup truck. I passed the pickup truck and came to a stop light about a mile farther on. I was stopped at the light when the pickup truck pulled up behind me and a big guy with no shirt jumped out of the truck and came up to my window. He didn't like being passed. He wanted me to get out of the car.

You're saying people like him should be carrying guns. You're saying I should have had a gun, so I could have killed him right through my window. I don't think you've thought this through. If you want to collect guns fine, nobody's going to take them away from you. The second amendment protects your right to own firearms. But don't go telling the rest of us that everyone should be carrying guns, to shoot their way out of confrontations. You have already demonstrated your irresponsibility by refusing to acknowledge the societal hazards of gun ownership. Don't compound it now by trying to bring back the Wild West.
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This is about the dumbest bs story I have heard yet. I bet he was wearing a wife beater too..... :lol:


If you are really the mature firearms enthusiasts that you claim to be, why don't you put some thought into how we keep a certified nut job like this Vietnamese man from gathering and using an arsenal of weapons? That would be really useful.
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Guns in Prison Show Futility of a Ban on Arms - The New York Times


You can't stop kill crazy madmen from applying thier trade. You can only endeavour to prepare for it.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
This is a lie. Are you jumping on the Sky-Captain bandwagon of lies? :rofl

You can't stop kill crazy madmen from applying thier trade. You can only endeavour to prepare for it.
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You call me a liar for suggesting you believe everyone should carry, then you say everyone should carry to prepare for crazy madmen. Excuse me for mistaking you for a hypocrite.
 
WillRockwell said:
You call me a liar for suggesting you believe everyone should carry, then you say everyone should carry to prepare for crazy madmen. Excuse me for mistaking you for a hypocrite.
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So now you are simply "suggesting".... My point is eiher you are lying, or you are not smart enough to read my point, or that you are jumping on the bait wagon.


Which is it?

Have you read or even considered my other three points that go into my statement?


Start with the one where I state it is about a mindset, not the tool or even having said tool.


This is now 4 times I have tried to make it easy., Please don't disapoint.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
this makes you a prevaricator. Please. Stop lying, you're embarrassing yourself.


I have clarified my statement so that even the simplest of people can grasp my concept at least 3 separate times. Why do you refuse to adress this?
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I've never asked for clarification but simply pointed out how you defined the victims as being meek for being unarmed. What's happening now isn't "clarification," it's called Millenium Falcon light speed backpedaling. But I don't think that's the most disturbing commentary, it's this one:


(Posted by RH)
"The gun is a tool, what is a shame gun or no gun is our society laying down to the wolf. how does 14 people get shot by 1 guy with 2 handguns? did anyone even attempt to fight back? the articles talk about hiding and cowering......"

A murderer strolls into a building and starts whacking people and you have the audacity to blame them for trying to dodge bullets? That's simply sick and degenerate.
 
WillRockwell said:
You call me a liar for suggesting you believe everyone should carry, then you say everyone should carry to prepare for crazy madmen. Excuse me for mistaking you for a hypocrite.
Click to expand...


From what I can tell the bulk of responses are simply false accusations. Responding to what posts say somehow fall into the categories of baiting, trolling, and lying. This is the Mud Method. If you throw enough on everyone else you can't see them thus you live in a world secure from accountability and the blessings of of an illusory infallibility.
 
SkyCore said:
I've never asked for clarification but simply pointed out how you defined the victims as being meek for being unarmed. What's happening now isn't "clarification," it's called Millenium Falcon light speed backpedaling. But I don't think that's the most disturbing commentary, it's this one:


(Posted by RH)
"The gun is a tool, what is a shame gun or no gun is our society laying down to the wolf. how does 14 people get shot by 1 guy with 2 handguns? did anyone even attempt to fight back? the articles talk about hiding and cowering......"

A murderer strolls into a building and starts whacking people and you have the audacity to blame them for trying to dodge bullets? That's simply sick and degenerate.
Click to expand...




Thanks for admitting to your trolling.


You are pathetic. You lie about my position then claim a position of morality. Your honesty and integrity are noted.
 
SkyCore said:
From what I can tell the bulk of responses are simply false accusations. Responding to what posts say somehow fall into the categories of baiting, trolling, and lying. This is the Mud Method. If you throw enough on everyone else you can't see them thus you live in a world secure from accountability and the blessings of of an illusory infallibility.
Click to expand...



You among the other two, claimed a position that I corrected you all on 4 times. By ignoring those corrections to attack me is indeed baiting and trolling.


What is your fear of honest debate?
 
By what I read, you most certainly are drawing a connection between the dead victims not having any guns and being meek. You claim the killer is a wolf who killed people who have conditioned themselves to be meek. One should realize their own intellectual dishonesty before accusing others of theirs....

Most people in America are disarmed when they are out living their average everyday lives, and there will always be a few wolves in waiting for the right moment to attack their prey. To call these few meek is to call all unarmed citizens as the meek.





Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Given the prohibitionist nature of NY, there is no doubt in my mind that the people were disarmed. They were lambs to this wolves slaughter. This much we can assume.


It is a sad reminder that police are historians, and that we are forced to be victims by the hypocrites we vote into power.
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Reverend_Hellh0und said:
How is this related to my commentary? people passed judgment on the burger king guy. Here 14 people let themselves get shot, not only was no one armed, but words like "cower" and "hid" are the words used here. it dismays me to know end that we teach ourselves to be meek when the wolf comes for the slaughter....

Like the VT tech thing, we have neutered the people and prepared them for the slaughter......







Yes you are so wonderful you want to think of the poor people first. you already said that. Are you suggesting I don't?
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Reverend_Hellh0und said:
So you admit to baiting me. noted.


You also build a strawman, I never said that people choosing not to have a gun are meak.


Get back to me when you want to be honest in our discussion.
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FlyOnTheWall said:
By what I read, you most certainly are drawing a connection between the dead victims not having any guns and being meek. You claim the killer is a wolf who killed people who have conditioned themselves to be meek. One should realize their own intellectual dishonesty before accusing others of theirs....

Most people in America are disarmed when they are out living their average everyday lives, and there will always be a few wolves in waiting for the right moment to attack their prey. To call these few meek is to call all unarmed citizens as the meek.
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Another one. Did you take my position as a whole?


Nope.


Show me in what you quoted where I stated one who chooses not to have a gun is meek.


My position is, and I will quote from an essay I linked:


"The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. "


On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman



We teach our society to be meek in the face of the wolf. To wait for the coming slaughter. .What other way can you explain 14 peole being shot and killed by one man and two pistols?


The gun is irrellevant.


5th time I explained my position.
 
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Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Another one. Did you take my position as a whole?


Nope.


Show me in what you quoted where I stated one who chooses not to have a gun is meek.


We teach our society to be meek in the face of the wolf. To wait for the coming slaughter. .What other way can you explain 14 peole being shot and killed by one man and two pistols?


The gun is irrellevant.


5th time I explained my position.
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I have read your posts, and your position appears to be you are struggling to understand why so many people choose to hide from a gunman instead of fighting, and that America as a whole has been conditioned to be meek, or docile. You may be correct, however the flip side of that coin would lead to a more violent nation than what we already have.

I said you were drawing conclusions, which is accurate. I do not understand why you have taken offense to others interpretation of your comments. Apparently you do believe that America is full of meek wimps. You shouldn't have to defend your position unless you really don't believe it.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Thanks for admitting to your trolling.
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Now that is a straight up lie because all I pointed out was accusations of trolling, baiting, and lying are the pattern you use in response to people pointing out what your posts have stated.



You are pathetic. You lie about my position then claim a position of morality. Your honesty and integrity are noted.
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Thank you. I'd probably have to kill myself if someone who made those crazy comments about the victims viewed me as an ally.
 
Goobieman said:
IIRC, you argument to this effect has been thoroughly debunked.
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The only effect I saw there was to chop up a post followed by an unsupported claim. Gun lovers have a strong reputation for that so it isn't surprising.
 
SkyCore said:
Linking that post made no sense because he was specifically addressing RH, not you or anyone else...
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None of this changes the fact that his argument to said effect has been previously debunked.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Are you not clicking the link? it clearly explains the "let themselves be shot" comment.


I can only lead a horse to water. Everyone else except you and skycore get it. your in great company.


Stop being stubborn and admit you know damn well what I meant. :2wave:
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Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Once again. I am most disapointed in your desire to misrepresent, and lie about my position.


Here is the link again

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ges-taken-binghamton-ny-7.html#post1057981365

and here is the explaination from said link....


The gun is a tool, what is a shame gun or no gun is our society laying down to the wolf. how does 14 people get shot by 1 guy with 2 handguns? did anyone even attempt to fight back? the articles talk about hiding and cowering......

This is a shame.



Now will you continue to tag team me with skycore or will you finally drop this shameful dishonest behavior and move on with the discussion?
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Reverend_Hellh0und said:
ok if you and skycore say so... :ssst:


http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ges-taken-binghamton-ny-7.html#post1057981365
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I read the link last night. It does not clarify your position nor answer my question, so don't play these games, Reverend. I'll make it simple for you. Here is your post:

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
How is this related to my commentary? people passed judgment on the burger king guy. Here 14 people let themselves get shot, not only was no one armed, but words like "cower" and "hid" are the words used here. it dismays me to know end that we teach ourselves to be meek when the wolf comes for the slaughter....
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Do you believe that someone who chooses to not carry a gun, lets themselves get shot, and that when we choose to not carry a gun we have been taught and are teaching others to be meek.

Real simple. Let's see if you answer it.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
And for your review Captain, another, explaining how I feel. I hope this ends your dishonesty once and for all here. this is a serious issue to me and your dishonest tactic to bait me with misrepresentations of my point are rather irksome. I expect better from you.



On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
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I will read this later, since I must get back to work. I would appreciate if you would not make ridiculous claims about my honesty. It is not I who has refused to clarify his post.
 
Dave Grossman is not one of my personal favorites; a lot of his work on the 'psychology of killing' is questionable. However, while I think it overly simplistic in some ways, his thesis On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs is a reasonably good way to get people to understand why some of us are the way we are.

I had a relative who didn't understand my position on guns and my concern with self-protection at all. I had her read Grossman's sheepdog analogy and her eyes were opened. Her problem, and the reason I made her uncomfortable, is that to the "sheep", a sheepdog looks a lot like a wolf. That essay helped her understand me better and to close that rift between us. It's worth reading.

We don't all have to be sheepdogs, but it would be nice if those who choose not to be, understood those who feel we have to be. Those of you who choose to go unarmed should not fear those of us who are honest citizens and who do go legally armed...we're not your enemy and wish you no harm; the day might come when you find us to be a valuable friend. We tend to have a strong sense of responsibility to protect others, and we just might be the one who steps between you and a dangerous criminal.

G.
 
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Goshin said:
We tend to have a strong sense of responsibility to protect others, and we just might be the one who steps between you and a dangerous criminal.
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Problem is, your sense of responsibility does not extend to help us figure out how to keep guns out of the hands of mass murderers, so instead of saving us from dangerous criminals you are enabling and encouraging them.
 
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