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Pope condemns sexual violence against women

Felicity said:
You want to separate soul and body to try to make your point--and I already said repeatedly, the two are incomplete without the other. The nature of woman is receptive, and the nature of man is generative--but for the human race to be complete, we need both. What man has that woman does not have for the position of Pope is the calling. Men, and only men, are called to the priesthood. And only 266 men in the whole world have been called to be Pope. Does that mean all the other men in history have been discriminated against? :lol:
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Wow, you really danced around this one. Circular reasoning at it's finest. Men are the only ones that recieve the calling. Why, because they are men.

The nature of women is receptive? A man must have written this. Is it because of the innie genetalia. I would think being receptive would be good for receiving the word of God. Why would a Pope need to generate anything?

And to answer your question at the end, I would say no, not all men have been discriminated against. Before John Paul II, it was 455 years since a non-Italian was pope. Before Benedict XVI, there hadn't been a German Pope in almost a 1,000 years. And Miltiades seems to be the only pope that had enough skin pigment to be considered a minority. That was almost 1,700 years ago.

Italian men haven't been discriminated against. :lol:
 
talloulou said:
If a woman claims she has been called by God, who are men of the church to question her? Since these callings can't be "authenticated" in any way they're moot.
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Women ARE called by God to do many things within the Church. Being a priest is NOT one of them.

All of the women who feel they've been called would disagree with you.
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Are they truly being called by God to be priests, or are they misinterpreting God's call to be somewhere else OR are they substituting their own desires and misinterpreting it as God's call?

[/quote]No, as it's clear there was no gender discrimination. In the case of the church refusing to employ a female priestess on the basis of her vagina there could be no clearer more straightforward example of gender discrimination.[/QUOTE]

Fine, there is gender discrimination in being a priest. However, there are plenty of roles for women in the Church. The Church is following the example of Christ and the guidence of the Holy Spirit. If you don't like it, TOUGH! Then don't be Catholic. Your choice. No one is holding a gun to your head.
 
JPII summed up the power that women hold in becomeing who they are in this portion of his apostolic letter MULIERIS DIGNITATEM. I agree totally with his view.

Mulieris Dignitatem, John Paul II, 15 August 1988 - Apostolic Letter
The personal resources of femininity are certainly no less than the resources of masculinity: they are merely different. Hence a woman, as well as a man, must understand her "fulfilment" as a person, her dignity and vocation, on the basis of these resources, according to the richness of the femininity which she received on the day of creation and which she inherits as an expression of the "image and likeness of God" that is specifically hers. The inheritance of sin suggested by the words of the Bible - "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you" - can be conquered only by following this path. The overcoming of this evil inheritance is, generation after generation, the task of every human being, whether woman or man. For whenever man is responsible for offending a woman's personal dignity and vocation, he acts contrary to his own personal dignity and his own vocation.
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talloulou said:
How do you know she's mistaken? As society has evolved and allowed women to do more so may have God. Maybe in biblical times God acted in a certain way that he might not act today. There's no way church men "know" a woman has not received the calling unless they are claiming an actual angel was sent to them and told them to bar women from the door.
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The Church relies not only on the evidence of the Scriptures, but also the guidence of the Holy Spirit. The combination of the two tells the Church that the priesthood is only reserved for a small, select group of men. If I feel I am called to the priesthood (or deaconate - as I am married), as Felicity has pointed out, I would go through an extensive period of discernment and then formation (four years for the permanent deaconate) before Holy Orders are given. At any time during that period, the Church may exclude the candidate or the candidate himself may determine that the calling wasn't genuine.


Nor is it run by God as is easily evidenced by the atrocities that have taken place in church. It is run by men. It is men keeping women out, not God.
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The Church is run by people, and as such, is inherently flawed. However, we trust the Holy Spirit to guide us in matters of Faith.

If it takes a discernment process to evaluate whether or not a man's calling was real I see no reason to not offer the same discernment process to women.
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Because the Church, though its interpretation of the Scriptures and the intent of the Holy Spirit, has already determined that this is not God's intent. The Church is NOT closed to women. There are plenty of vitally important roles in the Church that women can and DO perform. However, the priesthood is NOT among them.
 
EgoffTib said:
It should not matter if people criticize the Pope. The Pope is a man. Man is fallible. He will make decisions that some disagree with and there's nothing wrong with a little bit of dissension.
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Sure, but there are some people on here (not you) who have a knee-jerk reaction of criticizing the Church that is born of bigotry.
 
ludahai said:
Fine, there is gender discrimination in being a priest. However, there are plenty of roles for women in the Church. The Church is following the example of Christ and the guidence of the Holy Spirit. If you don't like it, TOUGH! Then don't be Catholic. Your choice. No one is holding a gun to your head.
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Not since the Inquisition anyway.
 
Felicity said:
What is laughable is spouting absurd accusations from a position of ignorance. The teaching of the Church is that man and woman are equal in dignity, though different in their nature. Your "knowing" is blind bigotry.
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Is that another way of saying I just don't understand the reasoning behind the discrimination?

I can live with that. I don't tolerate discrimination; even if it's daftly asserted it comes from above.
 
ludahai said:
Women ARE called by God to do many things within the Church. Being a priest is NOT one of them.
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That's discrimination.

Are they truly being called by God to be priests, or are they misinterpreting God's call to be somewhere else OR are they substituting their own desires and misinterpreting it as God's call?
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Same could be asked of many men within the church's hierarchy.

Fine, there is gender discrimination in being a priest. However, there are plenty of roles for women in the Church. The Church is following the example of Christ and the guidence of the Holy Spirit. If you don't like it, TOUGH! Then don't be Catholic. Your choice. No one is holding a gun to your head.
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Sure. But I'm free to comment on it all I like.
 
Felicity said:
JPII summed up the power that women hold in becomeing who they are in this portion of his apostolic letter MULIERIS DIGNITATEM. I agree totally with his view.

Mulieris Dignitatem, John Paul II, 15 August 1988 - Apostolic Letter
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What exactly does this mean:

The inheritance of sin suggested by the words of the Bible - "Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you"
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What is the sin, her desire for her husband or his ruling over her?

Doesn't one gender ruling the other automatically denote superiority?
 
talloulou said:
Is that another way of saying I just don't understand the reasoning behind the discrimination?

I can live with that. I don't tolerate discrimination; even if it's daftly asserted it comes from above.
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Are you not "discriminating" in your view of the Church--and is it not "daft" to hold an opinion on something you are unwilling to investigate to try to understand the reasoning?

It must be difficult to be unable to tolerate your own discrimination, and yet continue to spout ignorant and false claims against an entire religion.
 
Felicity said:
JPII summed up the power that women hold in becomeing who they are in this portion of his apostolic letter MULIERIS DIGNITATEM. I agree totally with his view.

Mulieris Dignitatem, John Paul II, 15 August 1988 - Apostolic Letter
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The personal resources of femininity are certainly no less than the resources of masculinity: they are merely different. Hence a woman, as well as a man, must understand her "fulfilment" as a person, her dignity and vocation...
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Tantamount to saying, "A woman should know her place..."
 
Felicity said:
Sure, but there are some people on here (not you) who have a knee-jerk reaction of criticizing the Church that is born of bigotry.
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I understand. You can't defend the indefensible so you crucify my character.

I forgive you.
 
independent_thinker2002 said:
What exactly does this mean:



What is the sin, her desire for her husband or his ruling over her?

Doesn't one gender ruling the other automatically denote superiority?
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The sin was original sin, and the result is part of the struggle that is people not treating others with the respect they are due, and people not being treated with respect. In other words (as JPII thoroughly explains in his letter): Both man and woman are wounded by sin and one of the wounds to both is misogyny--it harms BOTH the misogynist, an those on the receiving end.
 
ludahai said:
The Church relies not only on the evidence of the Scriptures, but also the guidence of the Holy Spirit. The combination of the two tells the Church that the priesthood is only reserved for a small, select group of men. If I feel I am called to the priesthood (or deaconate - as I am married), as Felicity has pointed out, I would go through an extensive period of discernment and then formation (four years for the permanent deaconate) before Holy Orders are given. At any time during that period, the Church may exclude the candidate or the candidate himself may determine that the calling wasn't genuine.
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It's laughable that the church has a rigorous process that pedophiles can slip through yet women cannot.



Because the Church, though its interpretation of the Scriptures and the intent of the Holy Spirit, has already determined that this is not God's intent. The Church is NOT closed to women. There are plenty of vitally important roles in the Church that women can and DO perform. However, the priesthood is NOT among them.
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The bible is a collection of old writings that someone siphoned through cherry picking which would make it in and which wouldn't.

When women wanted to vote and were not allowed I'm sure it didn't mean diddly squat to them that there were plenty of things they were allowed to do other than voting. :roll:
 
talloulou said:
Tantamount to saying, "A woman should know her place..."
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Yep. It's a place of supreme dignity and value--no less important than that of man.
 
Felicity said:
Are you not "discriminating" in your view of the Church--and is it not "daft" to hold an opinion on something you are unwilling to investigate to try to understand the reasoning?

It must be difficult to be unable to tolerate your own discrimination, and yet continue to spout ignorant and false claims against an entire religion.
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I don't make false claims. The Catholic Church consists of a male dominated hierarchy.

That is a fact.

You accept the reasoning behind this male dominated hierarchy and believe it comes from God and I do not.

I fail to see how that makes me a bigot. I have no issue with Catholic peoples.
 
talloulou said:
I don't make false claims. The Catholic Church consists of a male dominated hierarchy.

That is a fact.

You accept the reasoning behind this male dominated hierarchy and believe it comes from God and I do not.

I fail to see how that makes me a bigot. I have no issue with Catholic peoples.
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Name calling, my dear. You call the Church hateful and misogynistic. I am part of that Church. Do you consider me a "woman hater?"
 
Felicity said:
The sin was original sin, and the result is part of the struggle that is people not treating others with the respect they are due, and people not being treated with respect. In other words (as JPII thoroughly explains in his letter): Both man and woman are wounded by sin and one of the wounds to both is misogyny--it harms BOTH the misogynist, an those on the receiving end.
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Right, but rather than rid the church of misogyny you defend its practice. Make excuses for it, apologize for it, fail to see it for what it is, and presume I'm a bigot for not accepting rhetoric such as, "Women are different and they can't hold the same jobs as men in the church. Don't worry this doesn't mean men are better it just means women are barred from reaching any significant level within the male dominated hierarchy in the Catholic faith. This is not prejudice, it is God's will..." :roll:

This is like saying women can't be President. Not because we are discriminating against women but because it is NOT in their womanly nature to be President. For all of history Presidents have been men in the US. But don't worry women can do other things.
 
talloulou said:
Right, but rather than rid the church of misogyny you defend its practice. Make excuses for it, apologize for it, fail to see it for what it is, and presume I'm a bigot for not accepting rhetoric such as, "Women are different and they can't hold the same jobs as men in the church. Don't worry this doesn't mean men are better it just means women are barred from reaching any significant level within the male dominated hierarchy in the Catholic faith. This is not prejudice, it is God's will..." :roll:

This is like saying women can't be President. Not because we are discriminating against women but because it is NOT in their womanly nature to be President. For all of history Presidents have been men in the US. But don't worry women can do other things.
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Religion is not politics. :doh
 
Felicity said:
Name calling, my dear. You call the Church hateful and misogynistic. I am part of that Church. Do you consider me a "woman hater?"
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I know lots of people in the Catholic faith. I know many women who will readily admit it's a male dominated hierarchy and they just put up with it while hoping and praying the church eventually evolves into something that is relevant in this century.

I don't consider you a woman hater. I'm not sure if you believe a woman's role is to be submissive or if you are just so blind by loyalty that you will defend your church in the face of any and all criticism. But it really doesn't matter as my criticisms are of the church and not yours to be taken personally. If you can't separate yourself from the church so much so that any arrow thrown in their direction pierces your heart - that's not my problem.
 
talloulou said:
That's discrimination.
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I would take that up with God then.

Same could be asked of many men within the church's hierarchy.
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As I said, the people IN the Church are not perfect and even the Pope himself is only perfect when speaking ex cathedra (which is exceptionally rarely).

Sure. But I'm free to comment on it all I like.
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Never said you couldn't, but don't expect not to be called on anything you post either.
 
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