IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

[bub]

During Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive.

The soldiers are graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory course at Oranim Academic College in Tivon. Some of their statements made on Feb. 13 will appear Thursday and Friday in Haaretz. Dozens of graduates of the course who took part in the discussion fought in the Gaza operation.

The speakers included combat pilots and infantry soldiers. Their testimony runs counter to the Israel Defense Forces' claims that Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation. The session's transcript was published this week in the newsletter for the course's graduates.
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The testimonies include a description by an infantry squad leader of an incident where an IDF sharpshooter mistakenly shot a Palestinian mother and her two children.

According to the squad leader: "The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him, closer than the lines he was told no one should pass. He shot them straight away. In any case, what happened is that in the end he killed them.

IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement - Haaretz - Israel News

Wow. I believed that only the Hamas killed civilians!

Oh wait, they were Palestinians, so it doesn't matter a lot:

"The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way,"

 

[Goobieman]

I see you left this part out:

"The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders."

Not a surprise.

 

[bub]

I see you left this part out:



Not a surprise.

So what? That does not change anything! The sniper killed a defenseless woman and 2 kids. If you think that it is normal, then you have a big problem.

Fortunately, it seems that the Haaretz and many Israeli, including soldiers, do not find it normal, and they are asking for an inquiry for war crimes, just like Spain tried to do one month ago.

 

[Goobieman]

So what? That does not change anything!

Sure it does. The woman and child were killed because of a standing order not being countered in time, not, as you'd prefer to see it, because of some degree of moral depravity among Israeli soldiers.

 

[bub]

Sure it does. The woman and child were killed because of a standing order not being countered in time,

- they didn't "disobey", they didn't understand what they were asked to do/not to do
- even if they had disobeyed...are you seriously saying that it is OK to kill children and women because they walk away :shock:

not, as you'd prefer to see it, because of some degree of moral depravity among Israeli soldiers.

I see it's not just among IDF soliders :shock:

 

[Goobieman]

- they didn't "disobey", they didn't understand what they were asked to do/not to do

Odd. I dont see where I mentioned anything about disobeying orders.

The acticle states:

...but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay, and he should hold his fire and he ... he did what he was supposed to, like he was following his orders.

There was no comfusion on the part of the sniper, and no order was disobeyed. The sniper had a standing order to not let anyone pass, and, absent a counter-order, did what he was ordered to so.

are you seriously saying that it is OK to kill children and women because they walk away

As I said:
The woman and child were killed because of a standing order not being countered in time, not, as you'd prefer to see it, because of some degree of moral depravity among Israeli soldiers.

Keep tilting at those windmills, Don.

 

[Laila]

Israel can do no wrong to people like Goobie. Only Arabs can :roll:

 

[Goobieman]

Israel can do no wrong to people like Goobie. Only Arabs can :roll:

Arabs can do no wrong to people like Laila and bub -- only Israelis can.
:doh

 

[bub]

Odd. I dont see where I mentioned anything about disobeying orders.

The acticle states:



There was no comfusion on the part of the sniper, and no order was disobeyed. The sniper had a standing order to not let anyone pass, and, absent a counter-order, did what he was ordered to so.


As I said:
The woman and child were killed because of a standing order not being countered in time, not, as you'd prefer to see it, because of some degree of moral depravity among Israeli soldiers.

Keep tilting at those windmills, Don.

oh forget it...it's the fault of these 2 evil kids and their jihadist-supporter mum if they were executed, we need more heroes like this brave and courageous soldier!

 

[Ikari]

Arabs can do no wrong to people like Laila and bub -- only Israelis can.
:doh

I think both sides have done much wrong.

 

[Goobieman]

oh forget it...

Awww...
Are you now going to go back to the basement and cry about me not admitting I'm wrong -- when I am so very clearly not?

The woman and child were killed because of a standing order not being countered in time, not, as you'd prefer to see it, because of some degree of moral depravity among Israeli soldiers.

You don't have to like reality, but you really should accept it.

 

[TheNextEra]

As I said:
The woman and child were killed because of a standing order not being countered in time, not, as you'd prefer to see it, because of some degree of moral depravity among Israeli soldiers.

Keep tilting at those windmills, Don.

Do you not see anything wrong with a standing order that would allow a mother and two children to be killed by a sniper?

Sorry but Israeli Military IS at fault for even having a standing order like this.

 

[Goobieman]

Do you not see anything wrong with a standing order that would allow a mother and two children to be killed by a sniper?

There is nothing inherently wrong with a 'let no one pass' order.

 

[bub]

Awww...
Are you now going to go back to the basement and cry about me not admitting I'm wrong -- when I am so very clearly not?

The woman and child were killed because of a standing order not being countered in time, not, as you'd prefer to see it, because of some degree of moral depravity among Israeli soldiers.

You don't have to like reality, but you really should accept it.

And you think it is normal to make orders like that?

Do you know that it means "kill civilians"?

Are you aware that when Hamas people try to kill Israeli civilians, they're labelled terrorists?

Why couldn't we conclude that it was a terrorist order, and that this IDF sniper is a terrorist?

Oh you don't need to answer, it was already in the article: "Palestinian lives worth so much less than an Israeli live"

 

[bub]

There is nothing inherently wrong with a 'let no one pass' order.

That has to be the most incredible thing I've read this month

 

[Goobieman]

And you think it is normal to make orders like that?

Wait... you have some idea what sort of orders are 'normal'?
How much time have you spent in combat?
How much of that time was spent in command?

 

[Goobieman]

That has to be the most incredible thing I've read this month

As I have said:

You don't have to like reality, but you really should accept it.

Now, off to the basement with you, snotty nose and all.

 

[Ikari]

I do honestly believe that had the sides been switched in this instance that there would be much outrage and gnashing of teeth directed at the Palestinians.

 

[Laila]

I do honestly believe that had the sides been switched in this instance that there would be much outrage and gnashing of teeth directed at the Palestinians.

The Palestinians would have been called every name under the sun starting with 'terrorist'

 

[TheNextEra]

There is nothing inherently wrong with a 'let no one pass' order.

Of course not to you, because it is Israel. However if the Palestinians did this you would call them murderous terrorists.

Simply put there is something VERY wrong with having an order that would allow a mother and two children to be shot by a sniper on anyside, but because it is Israel and the people dead are Palestinians you couldn't care less.

 

[bub]

Wait... you have some idea what sort of orders are 'normal'?
How much time have you spent in combat?
How much of that time was spent in command?

Anyone with basic knowledges of ethic or morality can see that it is wrong to kill civilians.

 

[Laila]

Palestinian lives are worth less than Israelis. I am not surprised at the reaction.

If the thread was Israeli child killed by Palestinians, certain posters would be foaming at the mouth calling for a invasion probably

 

[Goobieman]

Palestinian lives are worth less than Israelis. I am not surprised at the reaction.

Context, please?

US Marine in combat on Iwo Jima:
"Jap lives are worth less than American lives"

Noi difference, no surprise, no foul.

 

[Goobieman]

Anyone with basic knowledges of ethic or morality...

I'll take that as a 'no' to my questions.

This means you really -dont- have any idea as to what sort or norders are 'normal' in a coimbat zone; any complaints you might then have to that effect are meaningles.

:2bigcry:

 

[Goobieman]

Of course not to you, because it is Israel. However if the Palestinians did this you would call them murderous terrorists.

Spoken by a man without a clue.