• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Selling sex legally in New Zealand

No it is not. It is about making them more tasty.

You are what you eat. There's no reason to raise even food stock in a cruel manner, being inhumane to the animal. Would you rather eat an animal that had a brutal life; that spent it's life in a constant state of stress and anguish? Or would you prefer to eat an animal that was treated humanely?

Maybe you don't care. Some folks do.
 
You are what you eat. There's no reason to raise even food stock in a cruel manner, being inhumane to the animal. Would you rather eat an animal that had a brutal life; that spent it's life in a constant state of stress and anguish? Or would you prefer to eat an animal that was treated humanely?

Maybe you don't care. Some folks do.

Have you ever cut the testicles off a calf? I have. Have you ever raised cattle? I have. The reasoning behind having happy steers is to have relaxed muscle tissue. Bull meat and cow meat are tough as nails.
 
It's hard to find laws that have zero moral basis. Most laws have a moral starting point.

For me its about liberty, not morality. The government's role is perserve our liberty, not be the moral authority or enforcement agency. I do believe we have inalienable rights bestowed upon us our Creator (or by virtue of our humanity for those athiests out there). That is an absolute for me. We surrender a portion of liberty (the liberty to murder, steal, rape, ect) in exchange for teh preservation and guarantee of our remaining liberties (life, the pursuit of happiness, free speech, ect.). This system works pretty good until government starts to overstep its purpose and starts to create laws that have nothing to do with perserving liberty and are all about morality.

You say its prostitution is immoral. You'll get no argument from me there, but I ask how does it affect the liberty of the people involved? That's my concern. If two consenting adults want to do something, we should have a pretty damned good reason to say "you can't do that". I don't think saying "I think its wrong" is a sufficient reason. Because that is arbitrary and reasonable people can disagree about what is wrong and what is right. If morality is the guiding principle and not liberty, what's to stop us from making adultry illegal? You're using the same foundation as every theocratic religious crackpot nation. You're just not willing to go as far as they are.

I'm willing to defend things that I think are wrong or immoral from legal abolishment or persecution. For example, I think Klu Klux Klan and neo Nazis are despicable people. I think what they stand for is 100% wrong, but I also don't think they should be banned legally as groups or from publicly stating their beliefs. Most people in this nation think they are evil groups. Would you support curbing their right to free speech and assembly? I wouldn't, because I'm not comfortable with a government that can determine what is acceptable speech and what isn't. Just like I'm not comfortable with a government that goes around enforcing arbitrary morals.
 

Human trafficking is a separate issue from prostitution. One involves a lack of consent and the other involves consent. Human trafficking will not become legal because prostitution is legal.

Also, the brothels serve as a means to protect prostitutes. People claim to be concerned about the woman's well-being yet they would rather it was illegal and the women were put back on the streets where they are targets? That is a serious contradiction. There is on-the-spot protection in brothels, not on the streets.

Whether prostitution is legal or illegal, there are issues. Illegal prostitution leads to more prostitutes becoming targets for aggressive clients. Legal prostitution may lead to more human trafficking. Weighing these issues I find that it is more important to protect the women who are consenting prostitutes because it will exist whether it is legal or not.
 
Legal prostitution may lead to more human trafficking. .

Wouldn't that lead someone to suspect New Zealand where prostitution is legal would be at the top of the list for sexual human trafficking?
 
I'm willing to defend things that I think are wrong or immoral from legal abolishment or persecution. For example, I think Klu Klux Klan and neo Nazis are despicable people. I think what they stand for is 100% wrong, but I also don't think they should be banned legally as groups or from publicly stating their beliefs. Most people in this nation think they are evil groups. Would you support curbing their right to free speech and assembly? I wouldn't, because I'm not comfortable with a government that can determine what is acceptable speech and what isn't. Just like I'm not comfortable with a government that goes around enforcing arbitrary morals.

I'm willing to do the same in regards to many things I find despicable or even just not my cup of tea. But the legalization is so intrinsically linked to human trafficking, sex slaves, and human rights violations for women and children that I cannot in good faith support it because there's the occasional whore that claims it's a great way of life. Women and children should not be commodities for men to purchase. Why do men go to prostitutes; because they can. It's really that simple. And when it's legal the demand increases. The business grows and time and time again in country after country whether it be Australia, the Netherlands, Germany, etc the end result is lots of women treated inhumanely with no liberty to speak of.

If there was no intrinsic link between human rights violations and the legalization of prostitution I'd view it as not my cup of tea but not an issue worth worrying over. Prostitution encourages men to view women a certain way. A dollar valued disposable being to be used as as a scratching post in a selfish manner that excuses the man from any obligation or reciprocation. It is not surprising that this inevitably leads to exploitation and human rights violations. The fact that it trickles down to children just makes it that much more intolerable.

And that's about all I have to say on the issue. My mind can't be changed.
 
Wouldn't that lead someone to suspect New Zealand where prostitution is legal would be at the top of the list for sexual human trafficking?

I was going by what was cited in an earlier post. It stated human trafficking was increase with legal prostitution. I do not know if this is actually true or not, but I included it to make my point.
 
I'm willing to do the same in regards to many things I find despicable or even just not my cup of tea. But the legalization is so intrinsically linked to human trafficking, sex slaves, and human rights violations for women and children that I cannot in good faith support it because there's the occasional whore that claims it's a great way of life. Women and children should not be commodities for men to purchase. Why do men go to prostitutes; because they can. It's really that simple. And when it's legal the demand increases. The business grows and time and time again in country after country whether it be Australia, the Netherlands, Germany, etc the end result is lots of women treated inhumanely with no liberty to speak of.

If there was no intrinsic link between human rights violations and the legalization of prostitution I'd view it as not my cup of tea but not an issue worth worrying over. Prostitution encourages men to view women a certain way. A dollar valued disposable being to be used as as a scratching post in a selfish manner that excuses the man from any obligation or reciprocation. It is not surprising that this inevitably leads to exploitation and human rights violations. The fact that it trickles down to children just makes it that much more intolerable.

And that's about all I have to say on the issue. My mind can't be changed.


Do you think prostitution is legal in these countries?

In Russia, many women have been trafficked overseas for the purpose of sexual exploitation, Russian women are in prostitution in over 50 countries.[34][35] Annually, thousands of Russian women end up as prostitutes in Israel, China, Japan or South Korea.[36

Human trafficking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Legality of prostitution I do not think is a causation of sex related human trafficking.
 
I'm willing to do the same in regards to many things I find despicable or even just not my cup of tea. But the legalization is so intrinsically linked to human trafficking, sex slaves, and human rights violations for women and children that I cannot in good faith support it because there's the occasional whore that claims it's a great way of life. Women and children should not be commodities for men to purchase. Why do men go to prostitutes; because they can. It's really that simple. And when it's legal the demand increases. The business grows and time and time again in country after country whether it be Australia, the Netherlands, Germany, etc the end result is lots of women treated inhumanely with no liberty to speak of.

If there was no intrinsic link between human rights violations and the legalization of prostitution I'd view it as not my cup of tea but not an issue worth worrying over. Prostitution encourages men to view women a certain way. A dollar valued disposable being to be used as as a scratching post in a selfish manner that excuses the man from any obligation or reciprocation. It is not surprising that this inevitably leads to exploitation and human rights violations. The fact that it trickles down to children just makes it that much more intolerable.

And that's about all I have to say on the issue. My mind can't be changed.

I have to ask if this is your primary concern, why did you not bring it up earlier. If I recall, you brought this issue up after several posts on the morality, lack of dignity, and stigma of prostitution. If this was your primary objection to legalized prostitution, I would've thought you would've brought it up first and not wasted our time with "would you want your daughter doing this?" and other such platitudes.

Moving on to human trafficing and prostitution, the two may be linked. I haven't read your links or checked out their authenticity, but I'll take your word for it, but they are not the same thing. Why can't we legalize prostitution and increase our enforcement efforts (with the now freed up manpower and funds from the former vice squads) to enforce laws on human trafficing? I don't see why they are mutually exclusive. We can legalize prostitution and crack down on human trafficing. Its not a either or proposition.

And as I've said before, the fact that an industry is linked to an illegal practice isn't sufficient casue to ban that industry. Landscaping, agriculture, and food service among other industries are linked to illegal immigration. Should we ban these industries as part of the fight on illegal immigration? No. We should enforce the laws we have on the books about employing illegal immigrants along with the rest of our laws pertaining to illegal immigration.
 
My person is not for sale. No woman should be for sale. Not even for a short period of time and a boatload of money. Lying down with a man for a dollar is like going to church for the wine.
This is your emotional opinion.
 
Also, the brothels serve as a means to protect prostitutes.


Not necessarily, the brothel is nothing more than a "legal pimp", or employer if you will. Like any good business model, the object is to maximize profits.

IMO, taking care of your employee's is a high priority and can add substantially to the overall succes of an operation in regard to meeting the objective.

However, my view isn't shared by all in the business world. So just because you provide a legal working environment, doesn't mean you are looking after the best interest, or safety, of your employee's.
 
Do you think prostitution is legal in these countries?



Legality of prostitution I do not think is a causation of sex related human trafficking.

Making prostitution illegal everywhere most certainly wouldn't put an end to it. However, the places where prostitution is legal are also the places where the business is biggest - even used as a tool to lure tourists in cases - and it is not a coincidence that they are the most common destinations for a sex slave to end up. The human trafficking unfortunately doesn't take voluntary sex workers from places where the business is legal and export them to where it is illegal. The exact opposite occurs. The legal places are the biggest importers and supporters of human trafficking.

The intrinsic nature of the problem can be seen by watching how the incidences of human trafficking has a booming rise after prostitution is made legal.

Also I know how you all hate morals so. But there is also an intrinsic relationship between paying to use a woman like a disposable scratching post that you have zero obligation to and treating women like disposable scratching posts in general. Men should care if the whore they're paying is a miserable being with no self worth, abused, drug addicted, etc; as well as having a concern for whether or not they genuinely are a voluntary sex worker. But the very nature of the transaction allows him to just pay a fee to use and **** her.
 
It's my emotional opinion that women shouldn't be for sale? :rofl

It's your emotional opinion that a woman selling sex would be considered a woman being for sale.
 
Do you think prostitution is legal in these countries?



Legality of prostitution I do not think is a causation of sex related human trafficking.

Well this is a bit of a shock to me. Prostitution is legal in Israel:


Prostitution in Israel is legal but pimping, maintaining brothels and trafficking is illegal.[1]

Prostitution in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What about China?

Well it is apparently illegal in China:

While the government of the People's Republic of China (PRC) has always taken a hard line on organisers of prostitution, it has vacillated in its legal treatment of prostitutes, treating them sometimes as criminals and sometimes as behaving with misconduct. Since the reappearance of prostitution in the 1980s, government authorities have responded by first using the legal system, that is, the daily operations of institutions like courts and police

Prostitution in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Israel has a huge human trafficking problem. Women from the Soviet Union are enslaved by the Russian mob and forced to work as sex slaves in Israel.
 
Israel has a huge human trafficking problem. Women from the Soviet Union are enslaved by the Russian mob and forced to work as sex slaves in Israel.
Then it sounds like your problem is with Russia.
 
It's your emotional opinion that a woman selling sex would be considered a woman being for sale.

So when you go to a brothel and the women come out and line up are you not picking out a woman? Are you not purchasing her time? As well as her body? Are you under any obligation whatsoever to find out about her life, the voluntary nature of her sex work, or even her name? Are you under any obligation to do anything? Are you not paying to use her flesh? Is she or isn't she under an obligation to allow herself (her body) to be selfishly used by you?
 

So I am noticing that three of the four sources here claim human trafficking has increased in Las Vegas, where prostitution is illegal. Seems like there is a spurious relationship between human trafficking and legal prostitution.

How do you then come to the conclusion that legalizing prostitution is the cause of increased human trafficking?
 
Making prostitution illegal everywhere most certainly wouldn't put an end to it. However, the places where prostitution is legal are also the places where the business is biggest - even used as a tool to lure tourists in cases - and it is not a coincidence that they are the most common destinations for a sex slave to end up. The human trafficking unfortunately doesn't take voluntary sex workers from places where the business is legal and export them to where it is illegal. The exact opposite occurs. The legal places are the biggest importers and supporters of human trafficking.

Well when you can prove it tell me. I just juxtaposed China and Israel. One country has legal prostitution the other doesn't. Both are targets on the sex human trafficking scene.
 
So when you go to a brothel and the women come out and line up are you not picking out a woman? Are you not purchasing her time? As well as her body? Are you under any obligation whatsoever to find out about her life, the voluntary nature of her sex work, or even her name? Are you under any obligation to do anything? Are you not paying to use her flesh?
Yes, and it is a voluntary choice made by 2 adults.

Is she or isn't she under an obligation to allow herself (her body) to be selfishly used by you?
She has chosen such a career path. She is obligated to do only what she has agreed to do.
 
Not necessarily, the brothel is nothing more than a "legal pimp", or employer if you will. Like any good business model, the object is to maximize profits.

IMO, taking care of your employee's is a high priority and can add substantially to the overall succes of an operation in regard to meeting the objective.

However, my view isn't shared by all in the business world. So just because you provide a legal working environment, doesn't mean you are looking after the best interest, or safety, of your employee's.

I would say that prostitutes are safer from harm in a brothel than they are on the streets.
 
So when you go to a brothel and the women come out and line up are you not picking out a woman? Are you not purchasing her time? As well as her body? Are you under any obligation whatsoever to find out about her life, the voluntary nature of her sex work, or even her name? Are you under any obligation to do anything? Are you not paying to use her flesh? Is she or isn't she under an obligation to allow herself (her body) to be selfishly used by you?

Yes, you are purchasing her time and sex with her. You aren't purchasing her as a human being to do with whatever you want. Your argument remains emotional opinion. And it isn't as if she is being forced into that profession. Obviously she has a choice. Hell, prostitutes are nearly legal in the US as it is and they are called escorts. They pick and choose their clientele and I imagine that it would be no different if it were made legal. I just don't understand why you assume all of these horrible things would happen if it were suddenly made legal.
 
Well when you can prove it tell me. I just juxtaposed China and Israel. One country has legal prostitution the other doesn't. Both are targets on the sex human trafficking scene.

I never said human trafficking does not happen in countries where prostitution is illegal.

However there is an intrinsic relationship between legalizing prostitution and human trafficking. This has been shown in Australia, Germany, Israel, & Nevada.

When sex becomes an open commodity, when tourism is aimed at promoting sex as a commodity, when there's tons of money to be made and little legal hassle in doing so the prostitution business grows. As it grows in certain areas the demand outpaces the product. When there are men with money who want to buy whores there will be other men who want money who will do whatever it takes to bring in more whores.

If you don't believe that, fine. I know it to be true. There's oodles and oodles of stuff all over the net describing the problems in the Netherlands, Australia, Israel, etc.
 
Back
Top Bottom