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Selling sex legally in New Zealand

If your sexuality wasn't an intimate part of your relationship then there would be no conditions surrounding it. Do you have rules about who you can make a sandwich for? Which gyno you can see? Whether you can schedule a massage?

He's a jealous person in some ways, I respect that to the extent that I can.

If I was making sandwiches for some guy every day, I have a feeling it would bother him. If he was making dinner for some other woman every day, it would bother me. If he was cuddling on the couch with someone, it would bother me. If he was having intimate discussions with another woman on a regular basis, it would bother me. If he was holding hands with another woman, it would bother me.

If he had a one night stand with some stranger, I could deal with it. If we had a threesome with another woman, I'd be fine. If he wants to go to a strip club and stick dollar bills in some stripper's thong, I'm okay with that. If he gets a lapdance, I'm okay with that.

What I could not deal with is an actual intimate relationship with someone else.

The conditions involving sex have little to do with intimacy and everything to do with jealousy, possessiveness, and STD safety.
 
What is the significance in being able to screw a woman for money?
Having sex without all the bull**** surrounding it. Sometimes you just want to get laid. Many women, however, require that a guy buy her drinks, or dinner, or *something* to "woo" her. In other words, they require payment in a different form. Some guys want to cut through all the bull**** and just get to business. Some women do too. But going to the bar and finding someone of like mind is a crapshoot. Go to a pro, and it's guaranteed.


Riv stated sex wasn't intimate. That was part of her argument in this here debate. Clearly -though she says that, it is intimate. There are rules, agreements, it's reserved, etc. When she said she didn't think sex was intimate, I didn't believe her. And I was right not to, as it turns out.
I said it doesn't have to be intimate. I've had sex countless times when it wasn't intimate. In most cases, it is NOT intimate. It's just sex. If I WANT it to be intimate, then it is. If I don't, then it isn't. Just like watching a movie on the couch. It CAN be intimate, but certainly doesn't have to be.
 
Ok so what is the argument for making prostitution legal RIV? You know women will make less money prostituting when it's legal. You know demand will increase. You understand the side effects and the human trafficking that tends to go along with legalization.

Can you really state simultaneously that prostitution is a respectable sexual agreement between two consenting adults while also arguing that the government now needs to get involved in legalizing it, regulating it, and providing safety for the women? Why do the women require safety? Why are they consenting to putting themselves in an unsafe position in the first place?
 
Riv stated sex wasn't intimate. That was part of her argument in this here debate. Clearly -though she says that, it is intimate. There are rules, agreements, it's reserved, etc. When she said she didn't think sex was intimate, I didn't believe her. And I was right not to, as it turns out.

You said sexual intimacy shouldn't be cheapened by monetary transactions. I'm wondering why you think we need the government to maintain the dignity of other people's sexual encounters.

As far as the rest of it the government does possess the authority to outlaw prostitution.

No it doesn't. This is completely wrong. Cite the power-granting clause which confers said authority upon the government.

Many laws are based on morality/ethics.

US law is based upon the Constitution. The Constitution is based upon the theory of natural rights. You're attempting to circumvent natural rights with your morality.

As far as the go home and mind your business- this is a debate board. If you don't desire to debate a topic then don't.

It's a figure of speech. You need not concern yourself with the personal decisions of two consenting adults, nor should you oblige the government to concern itself on your behalf. Like I said, you need to mind your own business and stay out of other people's lives.
 
Why do the women require safety? Why are they consenting to putting themselves in an unsafe position in the first place?


Anytime you have a health risk, you generally are regulated by the government in some sort of fashion.

Even fast food restaurants are regulated, so does that mean they should be illegal as well?
 
You know women will make less money prostituting when it's legal.

If demand goes up why would they make less money? Unless you think the number of women going into prostitution goes up asymmetrically to the demand.
 
If demand goes up why would they make less money? Unless you think the number of women going into prostitution goes up asymmetrically to the demand.

It's economics. Legalization makes it more accessible, more easily obtainable, and more people are able to partake in the industry without threat of legal hassle. Unfortunately the taboo stigma holds legal or not. Thus, the increased demand quickly outpaces the amount of voluntary sex workers. You'd think that would make the prostitutes more money but what seems to inevitably happen is that sex workers are then imported - from around the world- to the pockets where it is legal. The competition factor then forces the distributor to have a more competitive product - which in the world of prostitution means younger girls. That's when you get into greedy types partaking in coercion and sometimes outright trafficking of young girls from impoverished nations for exportation to the nations where prostitution is legal. Then the government is responsible for sorting out the mess and figuring a way to somehow protect these women and free them from slavery and horrible working conditions.

Amsterdam did not become "more safe" with legalization. Quite the opposite. Criminal activity did not decrease, it increased. Thus, now they're closing brothels down and trying to figure out how to back peddle and get rid of their adult entertainment playground status and sexual tourism.
 
Anytime you have a health risk, you generally are regulated by the government in some sort of fashion.

Even fast food restaurants are regulated, so does that mean they should be illegal as well?

But should sex be regulated? Do you want the government in your bedroom or out of it? Should the government be in the business of deciding how to make adult sexual playgrounds safe? Can adult sexual playgrounds ever be safe?

Are girls safer in Amsterdam now? Are they making more money now?

The answer is no. Legalization was a can of worms.
 
You said sexual intimacy shouldn't be cheapened by monetary transactions. I'm wondering why you think we need the government to maintain the dignity of other people's sexual encounters.
Because by making prostitution a legal business you are in effect bringing the government in. It then becomes the governments problem to make sure the working conditions are not violating human rights. When sex becomes a commodity, a business, it falls under labor rights and the government is forced to regulate the bed.

It's a figure of speech. You need not concern yourself with the personal decisions of two consenting adults, nor should you oblige the government to concern itself on your behalf. Like I said, you need to mind your own business and stay out of other people's lives.

So again, you too want the government in the bedroom and out of it simultaneously. You want your sex private but also a business. You want your women to be "consenting adults in a private sex act" while also wanting the government to make some sexual acts fall under labor and business categories. How does that make any kind of sense???:confused:

Or do you just want the right to pay for sex without being arrested and so selfish is your desire for that right that you care not about the Pandora's box this opens?
 
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Because by making prostitution a legal business you are in effect bringing the government in. It then becomes the governments problem to make sure the working conditions are not violating human rights. When sex becomes a commodity, a business, it falls under labor rights and the government is forced to regulate the bed.

And by making it illegal the government isn't getting involved? I don't think they will be forced to regulate the bed, but rather the standard working conditions as they would with any other job in the country.
 
Ok so what is the argument for making prostitution legal RIV? You know women will make less money prostituting when it's legal. You know demand will increase. You understand the side effects and the human trafficking that tends to go along with legalization.

I don't think demand will increase. If it does, it won't be much. At least not in the long run. I do think that some prostitutes will make less money since it will be a service easier to come by. But that's not the issue.

I understand that with any legal activity there are going to be those who exploit it and do illegal things. I understand there is and will always be a black market for thing that are both legal and illegal. The fact that there are criminals out there engaging in criminal activity that most don't agree with is no reason to keep or make perfectly legitimate transactions illegal. You're making the same argument people make about having gambling legal in certain areas. I no more agree with keeping gambling illegal throughout most of the country than I agree with keeping prostitution illegal throughout most of the country. Criminals are going to do criminal things, and we should do our due diligence to limit their effectiveness. That doesn't mean we should curtail the rights and freedoms of decent people in the process. OBVIOUSLY keeping prostitution illegal doesn't stop people from forcing women into slavery, now does it? Just like gun laws don't stop criminals from using guns. The root of the problem is NOT the legality of the profession, it's something else entirely.

You point out the Netherlands as a failed experiment, and perhaps they are. But we should use them as an example of what NOT to do. That doesn't mean that we should keep prostitution illegal just because they ****ed it all up. It means we should do BETTER at it when we legalize it ourselves. It means should look closely at what they did do wrong, and try not to repeat their mistakes. It doesn't mean that legal prostitution will fail. It means it will fail if carried out in the manner THEY did it.

Can you really state simultaneously that prostitution is a respectable sexual agreement between two consenting adults while also arguing that the government now needs to get involved in legalizing it, regulating it, and providing safety for the women? Why do the women require safety? Why are they consenting to putting themselves in an unsafe position in the first place?
Yes, I can state that simultaneously. Most everything we do is regulated to some degree. I may not agree with all the regulations, mind you, but I recognize that some are necessary. Consenting adults should be able to drive, right? Isn't that regulated? Is the fact that it's regulated for our safety an indicator that it's wrong to have it legal? Really... I think your emotions are getting the best of you here. This paragraph of yours here is not indicative of the intelligent Talloulou I know and love.

As for consenting adults putting themselves in a potentially unsafe position... hell, I made a living out of that for nearly a decade. I'm glad they do! And I still put myself in unsafe positions whenever I get the opportunity! :mrgreen: (whitewater, etc, etc)

But should sex be regulated? Do you want the government in your bedroom or out of it? Should the government be in the business of deciding how to make adult sexual playgrounds safe? Can adult sexual playgrounds ever be safe?
Legal prostitution would not be regulation of sex. It would be regulation of sexual services. The government is in my workplace whether I want them there or not, no matter where I work.
 
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What would be a good example of a country to use as a model when it comes to legalized prostitution?
 
Because by making prostitution a legal business you are in effect bringing the government in. It then becomes the governments problem to make sure the working conditions are not violating human rights. When sex becomes a commodity, a business, it falls under labor rights and the government is forced to regulate the bed.

This is not what I asked.

Why do you think the government has a responsibility to maintain the intimacy and dignity of sexual intercourse? Why should the supposed cheapening of sex be a legitimate concern of the government?

So again, you too want the government in the bedroom and out of it simultaneously. You want your sex private but also a business. You want your women to be "consenting adults in a private sex act" while also wanting the government to make some sexual acts fall under labor and business categories. How does that make any kind of sense???

This is a false dichotomy. For instance, one may serve hamburgers at a family party without adhering to government standards and regulations per the food industry. Why would serving sex be any different?

Or do you just want the right to pay for sex without being arrested and so selfish is your desire for that right that you care not about the Pandora's box this opens?

I don't have to justify the exercise of my rights to you or anyone else; alarmist caterwauling will do nothing to change this.

Also, I notice you failed to cite the power-granting clause which confers upon the government the authority to criminalize prostitution. Don't bother, it doesn't exist.
 
This is not what I asked.

Why do you think the government has a responsibility to maintain the intimacy and dignity of sexual intercourse? Why should the supposed cheapening of sex be a legitimate concern of the government?

I've said it over a hundred times in this thread. Legalizing prostitution ultimately leads to human rights violations against women & children. Bringing prostitution out into the open makes it more accessible and increases demand, which increases competition, which increases the need for more sex workers. YOUNG sex workers. There's a domino effect that everyone wants to ignore in favor of allowing a woman to sell her vagina or her mouth. :roll: Then, if you look at what's happened in other countries, the crap hits the fan. The human rights violations associated with prostitution become outrageous and the government is left holding the bag in sorting it out.

This is a false dichotomy. For instance, one may serve hamburgers at a family party without adhering to government standards and regulations per the food industry. Why would serving sex be any different?
Because you don't get paid serving hamburgers to your family. Once sex services are legitimized as a business sex practices fall under governmental regulation.

I don't have to justify the exercise of my rights to you or anyone else; alarmist caterwauling will do nothing to change this.

Also, I notice you failed to cite the power-granting clause which confers upon the government the authority to criminalize prostitution. Don't bother, it doesn't exist.

Can you site the one which gives the government authority to say it's wrong for a 40 year old guy to have sex with a 15 year old girl? :roll:
 
What would be a good example of a country to use as a model when it comes to legalized prostitution?

Why do we need to model our policies after another country? I think we're quite capable of figuring it out on our own.
 
Explain the importance behind going to a stranger and paying for sex in an environment where you don't even know if the sex worker is in the position voluntarily or not.

What is the significance in being able to screw a woman for money?

I don't honestly see how two people who are not intimately involved can have "great" sex. Maybe if you're on drugs or drunk, but guys might have a problem. I'd say it might be mediocre at best. All this "great" sex with strangers is Movieland and TV-land, not realityland, otherwise there'd be no need for any relationships whatsoever, no need for marriage, either, unless you just want a contract. Marriage has evolved into a relationship deal because people started to realize that when they actually had a deeper commitment for a person it made for great sex.

Riverrat said it doesn't have to be intimate. I've had sex countless times when it wasn't intimate. In most cases, it is NOT intimate. It's just sex. If I WANT it to be intimate, then it is. If I don't, then it isn't. Just like watching a movie on the couch. It CAN be intimate, but certainly doesn't have to be.

This makes sex seem so ordinary to me, and in reality, after a long time it is. Seems like it's a sporting event in the world arena now a days.

Just figure what it would have been like years ago (before birth control) if it were so everyday for the world. Noone would probably have siblings, unless you were a twin. There'd be very few full siblings. There'd be very little monogamy. I think the world would probably end up dying out cause everybody would burn out on sex. Seems that way to me. When you stay monogamous you have to be much more creative and start to look at a spouse in many different ways. You might have to see their beauty in the things they do for you that aren't sexual.
 
Why do we need to model our policies after another country? I think we're quite capable of figuring it out on our own.

bwahahaha. Yeah, and we should stick our head in the sand and not even look at all the other nations that have legalized prostitution in the past decade?

Wonder why we'd want to do that?

Oh yeah....'cause they're a mess. :cool:
 
This makes sex seem so ordinary to me, and in reality, after a long time it is. Seems like it's a sporting event in the world arena now a days.

Just figure what it would have been like years ago (before birth control) if it were so everyday for the world. Noone would probably have siblings, unless you were a twin. There'd be very few full siblings. There'd be very little monogamy. I think the world would probably end up dying out cause everybody would burn out on sex. Seems that way to me. When you stay monogamous you have to be much more creative and start to look at a spouse in many different ways. You might have to see their beauty in the things they do for you that aren't sexual.

Monogamy is very uncommon in, say, chimpanzees. They don't get "burned out" on sex. Personally, I'd rather have lots of half-siblings than be stuck with full ones. That way, I'd be able to easily cut off my connection to relatives that screw up their lives while interacting with the most successful and interesting (to me) of my many relatives.

bwahahaha. Yeah, and we should stick our head in the sand and not even look at all the other nations that have legalized prostitution in the past decade?

Wonder why we'd want to do that?

Oh yeah....'cause they're a mess. :cool:

The Netherlands and Austria seem like they're getting along pretty well despite the horrific devastation of their moral systems...

Huh. Maybe God's just waiting a couple more years to smite them with AIDS or somesuch.
 
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Tel Aviv police are searching for Jacky Yazady, suspected of heading Israel's largest women trafficking network, following a crackdown on what they say is Israel's largest human-trafficking ring, allegedly responsible for smuggling thousands of women from the former Soviet Union into Israel, as well as Cyprus, Belgium and England, and forcing them into prostitution.

Police have asked for the public's help in locating Yazady and his son, Golan, who is allegedly also involved in the human trafficking network.

At the end of a two-year international investigation, 12 Israelis were arrested Sunday along with over 20 suspects in several other countries. The suspected ringleader is Rami Saban, 35, of Moshav Magadim in the north, who was previously under investigation for alleged involvement in bringing hired killers from Belarus to assassinate leading Israeli underworld figure Nissim Alperon.
Advertisement

Police say the women were forced to work as prostitutes, and any who sought to escape or inform the authorities suffered vicious reprisals. The gang allegedly even arranged a fatal hit-and-run accident in Uzbekistan a few months ago, involving a woman who did escape.

Did legal prostitution make these women safer??

"The suspects essentially went on a shopping spree for women throughout the former Soviet Union," he said. "We are talking about over 2,000 women who, we suspect, were forced to work as prostitutes via threats and violence, in Israel and Cyprus and, later, in Belgium and England as well."
 
I don't honestly see how two people who are not intimately involved can have "great" sex. Maybe if you're on drugs or drunk, but guys might have a problem. I'd say it might be mediocre at best.
Well, you'd certainly be wrong. You might not be able to see it happening, but I assure you that a great many of us FEEL it happening any number of times, all over the country. ;) I've had absolutely mind-blowing sex with complete strangers. I don't see why I would need to be intimately involved with someone in order to have great sex. Where is the logic in that? I don't need intimacy to have an orgasm.

All this "great" sex with strangers is Movieland and TV-land, not realityland, otherwise there'd be no need for any relationships whatsoever, no need for marriage, either, unless you just want a contract. Marriage has evolved into a relationship deal because people started to realize that when they actually had a deeper commitment for a person it made for great sex.
No, it's not in "movieland". It's in real life, every day, all over the place. And you're right, there is no need at all for marriage. None.

This makes sex seem so ordinary to me, and in reality, after a long time it is. Seems like it's a sporting event in the world arena now a days.
Sooo... after a long time with someone, sex becomes "ordinary"? You would think it would just get better and better and better by the way you go on about how sex with someone you're intimate with is the only way to have truly 'great' sex.

Just figure what it would have been like years ago (before birth control) if it were so everyday for the world. Noone would probably have siblings, unless you were a twin. There'd be very few full siblings. There'd be very little monogamy. I think the world would probably end up dying out cause everybody would burn out on sex. Seems that way to me. When you stay monogamous you have to be much more creative and start to look at a spouse in many different ways. You might have to see their beauty in the things they do for you that aren't sexual.
Wow.. you mean, be intimate with them? WithOUT sex?? :shock: Mind boggling!

Sounds to me like if you stay monogamous for too long, sex becomes a chore. You have do all this thinking and be 'creative' and look at your spouse in different ways. I just wanna ****. I don't want to labor over thinking about how we *should* ****.
 
The Netherlands and Austria seem like they're getting along pretty well despite the horrific devastation of their moral systems...

Huh. Maybe God's just waiting a couple more years to smite them with AIDS or somesuch.

Increase in human trafficking in Netherlands
Latest figures show more women, especially from Hungary and China, falling prey to human traffickers.

Increase in human trafficking in Netherlands < Local News | Expatica The Netherlands

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) — A court convicted six people Friday in what prosecutors said was the largest case of human trafficking ever brought to trial in the Netherlands.

Experts said the case could have an impact on Dutch policy because the crimes were committed after brothels were legalized in 2000 in the hope that legitimacy would make it easier for the police to monitor prostitution.

Five of the six convicted men were found guilty of participating in a large, well-established network that kept women in prostitution by force — and with extreme violence.

Some of the victims were compelled to have breast enlargement surgery, and one defendant was convicted of forcing at least one woman to have an abortion. Women were beaten and forced to sit in icy water to avoid bruising. They also were tattooed.

Six get heavy sentences in Dutch human trafficking trial - USATODAY.com


VIENNA, Oct. 17 (Xinhua) -- Human trafficking is the most profitable criminal industry nowadays, and Austria has becomes the international human trafficking transit point and destination, Heidrun Silhavy, Austrian Federal Minister for Health and Women said here Friday.

She told a press conference that the criminals get more than 35billion U.S dollars for human trafficking each year according to the statistical data, and the huge pecuniary benefit temptation made this rampant crime increased rapidly. The main victims of the crime are women and children, she said.

Only recent years in Vienna, intercepted children from human trafficking was up to 1,300, according to the statistic of UNICEF (United Nations Children's Fund).

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-10/18/content_10212986.htm


Next???:mrgreen:
 
I've said it over a hundred times in this thread. Legalizing prostitution ultimately leads to human rights violations against women & children. Bringing prostitution out into the open makes it more accessible and increases demand, which increases competition, which increases the need for more sex workers. YOUNG sex workers. There's a domino effect that everyone wants to ignore in favor of allowing a woman to sell her vagina or her mouth. Then, if you look at what's happened in other countries, the crap hits the fan. The human rights violations associated with prostitution become outrageous and the government is left holding the bag in sorting it out.

Once again, this is not what I'm asking. You claimed that sexual intimacy should not be cheapened by a monetary transaction; I'm wondering why maintaining the dignity of sexual intimacy should be a concern of the government.

Because you don't get paid serving hamburgers to your family. Once sex services are legitimized as a business sex practices fall under governmental regulation.

You completely missed my point.

Just because the government regulates the public sale of hamburgers does not mean they must also regulate the serving of hamburgers at a family party. We can regulate the sale of sex without having to regulate people's private sexual lives. False dichotomy.

Can you site the one which gives the government authority to say it's wrong for a 40 year old guy to have sex with a 15 year old girl?

Yes, I can.

U.S. Constitution: Article I. Section 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Article I
 
bwahahaha. Yeah, and we should stick our head in the sand and not even look at all the other nations that have legalized prostitution in the past decade?

Wonder why we'd want to do that?

Oh yeah....'cause they're a mess. :cool:

You asked me a question and I gave you a logical answer. The failures of other countries are not indicative of what will happen in the US. Why not look within our borders? The Bunny Ranch is an excellent example of well-regulated prostitution.
 

Criminals engage in criminal activity. We get it. Criminals use guns to kill people too, that doesn't mean we should make guns illegal. This kind of argument is truly boggling to me.

Obviously we do just fine with our little "experiment" of legal prostitution in a county in Nevada. If other places have failed, we should just not do what they did wrong.

Can you imagine the resources that would be freed up to investigate the actual criminal slave traffickers if we didn't have so many resources arresting and investigating consenting adults having sex?

And I don't think we should model ourselves after ANY country. When the **** have we EVER done that? We certainly shouldn't start now.

If the only argument you have against legalizing prostitution is that some people commit crimes now that would still be committing crimes if it's legal, then I'm afraid that's not a very good argument.
 
You asked me a question and I gave you a logical answer. The failures of other countries are not indicative of what will happen in the US. Why not look within our borders? The Bunny Ranch is an excellent example of well-regulated prostitution.

This is interesting.

Please outline the management structure, mission statement, vision, employee policies and related regulation of the bunny ranch.

What kind of business is the bunny ranch? S-corp? LLC?
 
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