Calif. teachers see red over mass pink slips

Link
My Way News - Calif. teachers see red over mass pink slips

Having read this article, taking note that the possibility exists that there may be fewer forced redundancies than are being suggested, I thought, nay, wondered what the total manpower numerically of those in Government in California.
My reasoning is that every Government politician (funded by the Californian Taxpayer) is perfectly willing to take Taxpayer money while failing to govern California in a sensible manner.
I doubt one would see any Politician willingly cede a percentage of his / her salary back to the state for the good of the state?
There again, perhaps I may be wrong?
In Texas I heard that an ISD where teachers would need to be laid off, held a poll among all their teachers and decided that they would give up pay for one hour each week, this allowed that ISD to put off making six teachers redundant.
Definitely a win win situation not only for the six teachers but also and perhaps more importantly for the student body within that ISD.

jujuman13 said:

Link
My Way News - Calif. teachers see red over mass pink slips

Having read this article, taking note that the possibility exists that there may be fewer forced redundancies than are being suggested, I thought, nay, wondered what the total manpower numerically of those in Government in California.
My reasoning is that every Government politician (funded by the Californian Taxpayer) is perfectly willing to take Taxpayer money while failing to govern California in a sensible manner.
I doubt one would see any Politician willingly cede a percentage of his / her salary back to the state for the good of the state?
There again, perhaps I may be wrong?
In Texas I heard that an ISD where teachers would need to be laid off, held a poll among all their teachers and decided that they would give up pay for one hour each week, this allowed that ISD to put off making six teachers redundant.
Definitely a win win situation not only for the six teachers but also and perhaps more importantly for the student body within that ISD.

Click to expand...

The problem I see is four fold.

How do you determine an incompetent teacher?

Some, like the previous Bush administration would say those that have students that can't pass a national exam.

The problem with that is that there are four key factors in a child's education (Not presented in order of importance)

#1 The administration. If the administration places rules on teachers that prevent them from teaching, this is a problem.

#2 The teacher. If you have a teacher more concerned about a paycheck than a student, you have a problem.

#3. The parent. If a parent doesn't care about his/her child's education this can present a problem as well.

#4. The student. Some students, no matter what the education environment they are in, they simply do not want to put forth the effort to learn.

My point is blaming the teachers for children not learning is ignorant to say the least without knowing the true situation of all 4 cases I provided IMO.

How do you determine an incompetent teacher?

Click to expand...

Run schools more like businesses.
Dead weight gets replaced.

Good teachers are easy to spot.
Poor ones too.

Fire the duds quickly.
Pay the better teachers more.

Competition would raise levels.

#1 The administration. If the administration places rules on teachers that prevent them from teaching, this is a problem.

Click to expand...

Interesting, and juxtapose this in another direction, this is PRECISELY what happens when socialized medicine is invoked.

#2 The teacher. If you have a teacher more concerned about a paycheck than a student, you have a problem.

Click to expand...

Quite the opposite.
If you have to fight for your existence you go the extra mile.

#3. The parent. If a parent doesn't care about his/her child's education this can present a problem as well.

Click to expand...

True.
That's a family, not a government issue.

But... students are in school for 6 hours daily.
If they are halfwits they will get through.
School just isn't that challenging today.
It's almost laughable what passes for "education".

#4. The student. Some students, no matter what the education environment they are in, they simply do not want to put forth the effort to learn.

Click to expand...

Let me tell share with you an interesting transaction about motivating teens.
A father pulled his son into his home office, and said to him, "your grades are pretty poor, and it strikes me you don't want to do the work to be at a level of competence. That is OK son, I love you, and if you have so little interest there are solutions where you can be a productive member of society. Today I spoke with the gardener and asked him if he would be willing to take you on as an employee. He said that's fine but he has to be on time when we begin at 05:00 and the days can go until 19:00 when we are in full season.

His son, tears welling up in his eyes, choked for words was transformed.

He made his folks proud.

For those that are not motivated... have their roles in society. Like everyone else they choose how high they rise in society.
Others learn, but the hard way and pass their failures onto their children... to learn from.
Some wake up after the fact and redouble their efforts.
Others become Democrats and blame someone else.

My point is blaming the teachers for children not learning is ignorant to say the least without knowing the true situation of all 4 cases I provided IMO.

Click to expand...

It is a combination.
A system and society that tolerates failure, passing failures from one grade to the next and coddles children.
Poor parents.
It is THEIR problem. The teenies. It is their life. Somebody has to illustrate actions and inaction has consequences.

It would be great if the education system would promote Capitalism and its virtues. Our great history and how it translates to our rapid rise.

I'd let Warren Buffet write the curricula.
He'd make it fun and interesting and society would benefit tremendously from it.
His Annual Reports are a great education and are brilliant.
BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY ANNUAL & INTERIM REPORTS

ALERT TO LIBS
Please be seated.

I heard a short bit about what Obama wants to do with schools and teachers.
I heard his Secretary of Education make their case with Wolf Blitzer.

I liked most of what I heard.

I think they have a number of good ideas.
Promote teachers on merit.
The Secretary of education actually parroted my reasoning.
Let the Principals do the firing. They are closest to the situation.

Which means Principals that run crap schools will get the axe.
The dead weight moves out and a better manager can take their place.
Just like businesses.

Lengthen the school year.
Keep schools open longer for activities concerning arts and tutoring.

All great stuff.

We need educated folks to compete with other nations.
Japan, China. Germany. India.

We can acquire theirs, but this comes with risks.

zimmer said:

Run schools more like businesses.
Dead weight gets replaced.

Good teachers are easy to spot.
Poor ones too.

Fire the duds quickly.
Pay the better teachers more.

Competition would raise levels.

Interesting, and juxtapose this in another direction, this is PRECISELY what happens when socialized medicine is invoked.


Quite the opposite.
If you have to fight for your existence you go the extra mile.


True.
That's a family, not a government issue.

But... students are in school for 6 hours daily.
If they are halfwits they will get through.
School just isn't that challenging today.
It's almost laughable what passes for "education".


Let me tell share with you an interesting transaction about motivating teens.
A father pulled his son into his home office, and said to him, "your grades are pretty poor, and it strikes me you don't want to do the work to be at a level of competence. That is OK son, I love you, and if you have so little interest there are solutions where you can be a productive member of society. Today I spoke with the gardener and asked him if he would be willing to take you on as an employee. He said that's fine but he has to be on time when we begin at 05:00 and the days can go until 19:00 when we are in full season.

His son, tears welling up in his eyes, choked for words was transformed.

He made his folks proud.

For those that are not motivated... have their roles in society. Like everyone else they choose how high they rise in society.
Others learn, but the hard way and pass their failures onto their children... to learn from.
Some wake up after the fact and redouble their efforts.
Others become Democrats and blame someone else.


It is a combination.
A system and society that tolerates failure, passing failures from one grade to the next and coddles children.
Poor parents.
It is THEIR problem. The teenies. It is their life. Somebody has to illustrate actions and inaction has consequences.

It would be great if the education system would promote Capitalism and its virtues. Our great history and how it translates to our rapid rise.

I'd let Warren Buffet write the curricula.
He'd make it fun and interesting and society would benefit tremendously from it.
His Annual Reports are a great education and are brilliant.
BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY ANNUAL & INTERIM REPORTS

Click to expand...

TheNextEra said:

#1 The administration. If the administration places rules on teachers that prevent them from teaching, this is a problem.

Click to expand...

I would agree with this if every teacher under the same administration were failing.

#2 The teacher. If you have a teacher more concerned about a paycheck than a student, you have a problem.

Click to expand...

Another issue with the teachers is that they simply do not keep up with their continuing education requirements. We also have some very unqualified teachers here in California.

#3. The parent. If a parent doesn't care about his/her child's education this can present a problem as well.

Click to expand...

I agree 100% here. If parents aren't taking part in their child's education, then the child is going to be set up for failure.

#4. The student. Some students, no matter what the education environment they are in, they simply do not want to put forth the effort to learn.

Click to expand...

This is true, too, but it is no indication of how the teacher is faring at his job. Basing the teacher's performance on the performance of individual students is not going to give an accurate assessment of the teacher's competence.

Now looking at the combined average of the students gives a much better picture. This is where standardized tests are useful.

jujuman13 said:

Link
My Way News - Calif. teachers see red over mass pink slips

Having read this article, taking note that the possibility exists that there may be fewer forced redundancies than are being suggested, I thought, nay, wondered what the total manpower numerically of those in Government in California.
My reasoning is that every Government politician (funded by the Californian Taxpayer) is perfectly willing to take Taxpayer money while failing to govern California in a sensible manner.
I doubt one would see any Politician willingly cede a percentage of his / her salary back to the state for the good of the state?
There again, perhaps I may be wrong?
In Texas I heard that an ISD where teachers would need to be laid off, held a poll among all their teachers and decided that they would give up pay for one hour each week, this allowed that ISD to put off making six teachers redundant.
Definitely a win win situation not only for the six teachers but also and perhaps more importantly for the student body within that ISD.

Click to expand...

This makes great talking points for the Liberals and Democrats but the FACTS don't support the demagogueing; these are sent out as required by their UNION contracts and doesn't mean that ANY teachers will get laid off.

This is an attempt once again to FOOL Californians into thinking that the money to education has been so drastically reduced we will be having MASSIVE teacher layoffs.

Anyone want to make a wager as to how many teachers will be let go come summer? :roll:

This is another YAWNER like most Liberal talking points.

jallman said:

Another issue with the teachers is that they simply do not keep up with their continuing education requirements. We also have some very unqualified teachers here in California.

Click to expand...

In Georgia, if you don't do this, your certificate is NOT renewed. However, though teachers already make a relatively low salary, they have to pay for many of the continuing education requirements out of their own pockets.

ludahai said:

In Georgia, if you don't do this, your certificate is NOT renewed. However, though teachers already make a relatively low salary, they have to pay for many of the continuing education requirements out of their own pockets.

Click to expand...

That's part of the profession. If you aren't willing to do what it takes to stay current, then choose another profession.

Here in California, we have some straight up unqualified teachers on top of them not keeping up with their continuing ed requirements. And the Unions shield them.

TheNextEra said:

The problem I see is four fold.

How do you determine an incompetent teacher?

Some, like the previous Bush administration would say those that have students that can't pass a national exam.

The problem with that is that there are four key factors in a child's education (Not presented in order of importance)

#1 The administration. If the administration places rules on teachers that prevent them from teaching, this is a problem.

#2 The teacher. If you have a teacher more concerned about a paycheck than a student, you have a problem.

#3. The parent. If a parent doesn't care about his/her child's education this can present a problem as well.

#4. The student. Some students, no matter what the education environment they are in, they simply do not want to put forth the effort to learn.

My point is blaming the teachers for children not learning is ignorant to say the least without knowing the true situation of all 4 cases I provided IMO.

Click to expand...

Naturally. Teachers can't be the problem.

They've got a union.

Too bad the taxpayers don't have anyone in Sacramento to take their side, eh?

ludahai said:

However, though teachers already make a relatively low salary, they have to pay for many of the continuing education requirements out of their own pockets.

Click to expand...

So?

It's their job they're working to keep, isn't it?

It's not my job, so I shouldn't be required to pay their continuing education. If they don't want to keep their job, they don't have to pay for their education.

Pretty simple, that.

jallman said:

That's part of the profession. If you aren't willing to do what it takes to stay current, then choose another profession.

Here in California, we have some straight up unqualified teachers on top of them not keeping up with their continuing ed requirements. And the Unions shield them.

Click to expand...

However, if you want to attract and RETAIN good teachers, you need to remunerate them appropriately and perhaps provide financial assistance to help them take the necessary courses needed to stay current.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

So?

It's their job they're working to keep, isn't it?

It's not my job, so I shouldn't be required to pay their continuing education. If they don't want to keep their job, they don't have to pay for their education.

Pretty simple, that.

Click to expand...

Then pay them a salary that won't make it a financial burden to do so. Either that, don't expect to draw good, qualified people to teach our children.

ludahai said:

Then pay them a salary that won't make it a financial burden to do so. Either that, don't expect to draw good, qualified people to teach our children.

Click to expand...

Salaries are supposed to be determined by the free market.

X number teachers competing for Y number of jobs where Y < X, and the teachers have to make decisions about how much they'll accept to teach school rather than paint houses, and the schools have to determine what they need to pay to get teachers in front of the students, not house painters.

Ain't no reason at all why the teaching industry should be treated any differently than any other.

The teacher who knows best that the third grade teacher is an incompetent boob? The fourth grade teacher that gets his students.

That fact should be applied to the "how to grade teachers performance" issue in some manner.

zimmer said:

Run schools more like businesses.
Dead weight gets replaced.

Good teachers are easy to spot.
Poor ones too.

Fire the duds quickly.
Pay the better teachers more.

Competition would raise levels.

Click to expand...

Before I jump on the Zimmer bandwagon here, a couple questions first: 1)How do you feel about standardized testing and 2)how do you feel about the tax hikes needed to attract the better paid teachers?

Cardinal said:

Before I jump on the Zimmer bandwagon here, a couple questions first: 1)How do you feel about standardized testing and 2)how do you feel about the tax hikes needed to attract the better paid teachers?

Click to expand...

Standardized testing is essential.

Tax increases are unnecessary.

I mean, it's not like the US doesn't spend more per student than any other industrialized nation in the world to produce the most ignorant but most highly self-esteemed graduates to be found anywhere.

Clearly it's not a spending problem. Clearly the schools have more than enough money now. All that needs doing is figuring out what they're doing wrong. That's easy. They're wasting the kids time with tons and tons of garbage. Teach 'em how to read, in english. Teach 'em how to write, in english. Teach 'em mathematics. Teach 'em science. Teach 'em history. The real stuff, not the water down nonsense I see them struggling with now. Teach 'em these things are important and valuable.

People were doing that before teaching got modernized, ain't any excuses for the failures the teaching industry has shown since "better" methods were invented. If they were better methods, the kids would have continued to learn, right? So they're not better methods. So stop using them and go back to the basics.

Phonics. My sixty year old teachers in 1966 taught phonics. She wasn't my friend, and she was stern. So I was reading Leon Uris novels within four years. Yeah, I'm exceptional...but not one single person in my class couldn't read. Nope everyone one of the people in the fourth grade, in all the classes, could read.

If they couldn't read on the fourth grade level...they didn't get put in the fourth grade. Hows that for an archaic notion, the concept of failure? Kids don't like it, kids will work to avoid that label.

Addition and multiplication tables. It's how I learned math, and I can do calculus in my head. How about you modern teacher types? IMO a passing grade in first year calculus should be required for a high school diploma.

Scarecrow Akhbar said:

Standardized testing is essential....

Tax increases are unnecessary.

(snip)

Clearly the schools have more than enough money now.

Click to expand...

May I ask where you live? Because you've also said things like "racism is over in this country" and "there is zero evidence of global warming." And now you're saying that schools have more than enough money. I'd love to debate you, but it seems like you're coming from some parallel universe I don't recognize.

ludahai said:

However, if you want to attract and RETAIN good teachers, you need to remunerate them appropriately and perhaps provide financial assistance to help them take the necessary courses needed to stay current.

Click to expand...

They already have that assistance. If teachers want to be paid properly, they need to give proper attention to their jobs.

jallman said:

They already have that assistance. If teachers want to be paid properly, they need to give proper attention to their jobs.

Click to expand...

The best teacher in the world can't teach a student if the Student doesn't want to learn, the parent doesn't care, and the administration doesn't care.

TheNextEra said:

The best teacher in the world can't teach a student if the Student doesn't want to learn, the parent doesn't care, and the administration doesn't care.

Click to expand...

I agree with that. I was talking specifically about teachers who don't keep up with their continuing education requirements.

Cardinal said:

May I ask where you live? Because you've also said things like "racism is over in this country" and "there is zero evidence of global warming." And now you're saying that schools have more than enough money. I'd love to debate you, but it seems like you're coming from some parallel universe I don't recognize.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I live in the real universe where the per capita education spending in the state of California was nearly half of what I spent to attend a prestigious eastern private university for an engineering education.

I can't imagine any rational scenario where it costs half as much to not teach a child to read as it does to teach someone the intricacies of aerospace vehicle design and analysis.

Clearly, the states spend too much money per student.

The corollary to that statement is the states are spending enough money and the corollary to that is that the states do not need to raise taxes to pay for reforms in their education system.

Money isn't the problem.

That most teachers suck...that's the problem.

That the unions run the show...that's the problem.

You socialists have achieved your goal...the nation is broke...that means you can't keep throwing money at problems...you have to start fixing the problems.