Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

Grateful Heart · Mar 16, 2009

Ethereal said:
Other nations are not my concern, nor are appeals to the majority.

Sorry you mistook my very reasonable question as a logic fallacy.

If I were to argue that murder is wrong because nearly every culture has laws against it... that would be an appeal to majority, a logic fallacy.

On the other hand, if I were to ask you if the people who support murder laws around the world are all deluded, that would be a reasonable question which I'd reasonably expect you to answer.

So tell me... if the logic for legalization of marijuana is so common-sensical, so obvious, so plain to see... why do you believe people around the globe don't see that logic in the same common sense way you do?

Have they all been duped?

marduc · Mar 16, 2009

Grateful Heart said:
Sorry you mistook my very reasonable question as a logic fallacy.

If I were to argue that murder is wrong because nearly every culture has laws against it... that would be an appeal to majority, a logic fallacy.

On the other hand, if I were to ask you if the people who support murder laws around the world are all deluded, that would be a reasonable question which I'd reasonably expect you to answer.

So tell me... if the logic for legalization of marijuana is so common-sensical, so obvious, so plain to see... why do you believe people around the globe don't see that logic in the same common sense way you do?

Have they all been duped?

yup. reefer madness.

Hatuey · Mar 16, 2009

Grateful Heart said:
Sorry you mistook my very reasonable question as a logic fallacy.

If I were to argue that murder is wrong because nearly every culture has laws against it... that would be an appeal to majority, a logic fallacy.

It's not in society's best interest to have people killing each other. Who do weed smokers harm? The reasoning for making them illegal is not the same.

On the other hand, if I were to ask you if the people who support murder laws around the world are all deluded, that would be a reasonable question which I'd reasonably expect you to answer.

No. It would be a loaded question that uses the demonization of Marijuana by western culture as a crutch and ignores the fact that marijuana and other drugs are legal depending on locality. As opposed to murder. Which is illegal in not only modernized countries but even backwards countries like Iran.

So tell me... if the logic for legalization of marijuana is so common-sensical, so obvious, so plain to see... why do you believe people around the globe don't see that logic in the same common sense way you do?

Have they all been duped?

You're being purposely obtuse. Marijuana, thanks to religious conservatives has been demonized. This is the sole reason as to why it remains illegal. Mostly because people have been fooled into believing that marijuana is more harmful then alcohol or even advil. As I've said many times.Show me why marijuana should remain illegal and you'll have proven why alcohol, aspirins and hundreds of other legal substances should be banned and made illegal. Your agenda fools nobody. You simply won't. Your inconsistency will show the minute you admit to having used alcohol or any other number of perfectly legal substances.

marduc · Mar 16, 2009

Grateful Heart said:
For those who believe legalizing marijuana in California will help alleviate the state's budget woes... let me ask this. Who will be responsible for tracking all that legal marijuana, performing quality control, and most important, ensuring it does not cross California's borders into states that don't want it?

If a shipment of marijuana is transported from a legal 'farm' in California to some other state, could the 'farmer' who allowed that shipment to slip out be prosecuted by either California, or the state in which his illegal pot ends up?

Falls under federal jurisdiction and laws currently on the books. If ther farmer is responsible for the interstate trafficking, then yes. If he sold it through legal avenues and someone else misdirected it, no.

marduc · Mar 16, 2009

Truth Detector said:
But comparing pot to alcohol makes perfect sense? Do you think that pot cannot be laced with opiates? Do you think hashish cannot be laced with opiates?

Do you not think Alcohol cannot be laced with Opiates?? Ouzo anyone??

Truth Detector · Mar 16, 2009

Ethereal said:
Are you accepting my challenge to a true debate?

I would be more than happy to accept but for the fact that no one in this forum ever seems able to set up a "true debate" and I have already one outstanding challenge from MakeoutHobo for one.

It appears there is insufficient manpower on the forum to oversee "true debates" for the present time. So let's just have a "true" debate right here in the general forums.

What would you like to "true" debate? How Marijuana can rescue California's economy?

Grateful Heart · Mar 16, 2009

marduc said:
Falls under federal jurisdiction and laws currently on the books. If ther farmer is responsible for the interstate trafficking, then yes. If he sold it through legal avenues and someone else misdirected it, no.

Well, one of the reasons the marijuana trade in the Netherlands is so wildly lucrative is because of 'drug tourism.' People flocking across borders to purchase it legally. I'm assuming many of these 'tourists' take their marijuana home with them.

The towns of Roosendaal and Bergen op Zoom on the Dutch-Belgian border are to close down all the cafes which sell marijuana because of the problems being caused by drug tourists, reports the NRC on Thursday.

The paper says every week 25,500 French and Belgian nationals flock to the towns to buy marijuana from their eight so-called coffee shops.

The influx of tourists is causing traffic congestion, petty crime and street dealing, and all efforts to reduce the nuisance have failed, the paper quotes local officials as saying.

Official Dutch drugs policy means users can have up to five grammes of marijuana without being prosecuted. Coffee shops can have up to 500 grammes in stock.

The two town councils say they have no plans to compensate coffee shop owners for the loss of business. 'They should be happy we have tolerated them for so long,' Roosendaal mayor Michel Marijnen told the paper.

The border crack down is the latest in a string of extra controls being placed on the thriving Dutch marijuana trade.

The cabinet is already looking at ways to reduce drugs tourism following complaints from Belgium and Germany. And in March, health minister Ab Klink agreed to carry out a 30-year review of Holland's liberal drugs policy following concerns from MPs.

Amsterdam and Rotterdam have also taken steps to reduce the number of coffee shops close to schools.

Dutch News

So imagine a thriving marijuana industry in California. Our interstates would be clogged with folks driving all the way from Iowa, Kansas, and Missouri!

:2wave:

Truth Detector · Mar 16, 2009

Grateful Heart said:
Well, one of the reasons the marijuana trade in the Netherlands is so wildly lucrative is because of 'drug tourism.' People flocking across borders to purchase it legally. I'm assuming many of these 'tourists' take their marijuana home with them.

Dutch News

So imagine a thriving marijuana industry in California. Our interstates would be clogged with folks driving all the way from Iowa, Kansas, and Missouri!

:2wave:

And imagine how productive we will all be when our airplane industry is supplanted by the pot industry.

Yes folks, it will be a blissful paradise; millions will be just sitting around toking and listening to Jimmy Hendrix instead of worrying about how to find a real job. But that will be okay because California and Obama will make it easier to survive without the burdens of worrying how to feed yourself there will be food stamps, or working because unemployment benefits will keep being extended, or paying your mortgage because rich taxpayers will subsidize yours.

After all, gambling is also a harmless activity. While we are making illegal drugs legal, we should also just legalize gambling! Think how productive we all will be!!!

Life is so simple if you can only get past life’s REALITIES.

marduc · Mar 16, 2009

Grateful Heart said:
Well, one of the reasons the marijuana trade in the Netherlands is so wildly lucrative is because of 'drug tourism.' People flocking across borders to purchase it legally. I'm assuming many of these 'tourists' take their marijuana home with them.

Dutch News

So imagine a thriving marijuana industry in California. Our interstates would be clogged with folks driving all the way from Iowa, Kansas, and Missouri!

:2wave:

So California gets more income from tourism then. If people are going to be driving back from California with marijuana, then they run the risk of facing the legal ramifications of doing so. Penalties for transporting across state lines are severe. Ideally other states will look at California's model and follow suit and this will be a non issue.

Grateful Heart · Mar 16, 2009

marduc said:
So California gets more income from tourism then. If people are going to be driving back from California with marijuana, then they run the risk of facing the legal ramifications of doing so. Penalties for transporting across state lines are severe. Ideally other states will look at California's model and follow suit and this will be a non issue.

Well, I've been trying very hard to get people to look at the models of marijuana legalization around the world... such as the Netherlands. And it seems that the pro-legalization folks can't seem to accept that those models are all rife with problems.

:roll:

marduc · Mar 16, 2009

Grateful Heart said:
Well, I've been trying very hard to get people to look at the models of marijuana legalization around the world... such as the Netherlands. And it seems that the pro-legalization folks can't seem to accept that those models are all rife with problems.

:roll:

and prohibition is not rife with problems?

As I and a couple of others have said, we already have a model, and a framework to build it on.. alcohol laws right here in our own country

Grateful Heart · Mar 17, 2009

Hatuey said:
You're being purposely obtuse.

Marijuana, thanks to religious conservatives has been demonized.

This is the sole reason as to why it remains illegal.

Mostly because people have been fooled into believing that marijuana is more harmful then alcohol or even advil. As I've said many times.

Show me why marijuana should remain illegal and you'll have proven why alcohol, aspirins and hundreds of other legal substances should be banned and made illegal.

Your agenda fools nobody. You simply won't.

Your inconsistency will show the minute you admit to having used alcohol or any other number of perfectly legal substances.

Wow... I've taken the liberty of breaking down your post into its component parts and I've highlighted every bit of it that is either ad hominem, or completely without basis in fact, or just plain illogical.

:shock:

But just for fun, I'll take them on anyway...

Hatuey said:
You're being purposely obtuse.

Uh, no. I'm asking tough questions and being met with ad hominems such as this, deflections, and poorly thought-out arguments.

Hatuey said:
Marijuana, thanks to religious conservatives has been demonized.

The criminalization of marijuana in the U.S. had little or nothing to do with religion or conservatism:

Restrictions for marijuana started in District of Columbia 1906 and was followed by state laws in other parts of the country in the 1910s and 1920s. The early laws against the cannabis drugs were passed with little public attention. Concern about marijuana was related primarily to the fear that marijuana use would spread, even among whites, as a substitute for the opiates. It is largely believed that the early prohibititive marijuana laws were a racist response to the popularity of the drug among Mexicans. [3] In 1925 United States supported regulation of Indian hemp, Cannabis for use as a drug, in the International Opium Convention[4]. Recommendations from the International Opium Convention inspired the work with The Uniform State Narcotic Act between 1925 and 1932. Harry J. Anslinger become an active person in this process from about 1930.[5] [6]

Bio of Harry J. Anslinger

Hatuey said:
This is the sole reason as to why it remains illegal.

No, it remains illegal because even the most liberal politicians who study the issue realize it's a hornet's nest.

Barack Obama stated support for marijuana decriminalization in 2004 but has backed off that position during the 2008 presidential campaign, the Washington Times reported Feb. 1.

While running for Senate in 2004, Obama told a group of Northwestern University students, "I think we need to rethink and decriminalize our marijuana laws. But I'm not somebody who believes in legalization of marijuana."

However, Obama joined other Democratic candidates during an Oct. 30 debate is indicating that he opposed marijuana decriminalization.

Join Together.org

Hatuey said:
Mostly because people have been fooled into believing that marijuana is more harmful then alcohol or even advil. As I've said many times.

Simply not true. You haven't bothered to research your facts. According to polling, most Americans do understand that alcohol and tobacco are more dangerous than marijuana. At the same time, they don't want to legalize it.

Three Out Of Four Americans Say Booze, Tobacco Pose Greater Risk Than Marijuana

Washington, DC: Americans rank marijuana as far less dangerous than alcohol or tobacco, according to national poll of 1,109 likely voters by Zogby International and commissioned by The NORML Foundation.

Forty-seven percent of respondents said they believe that alcohol is the most dangerous recreational drug among the three choices. More than one-quarter of respondents (28 percent) believe tobacco to be the most dangerous. Only one-fifth (20 percent) of Americans say that marijuana is the most dangerous.

Respondents' rankings were mildly influenced by age. Among Americans age 30 to 49, 51 percent ranked alcohol as the most dangerous drug, compared to only 12 percent for marijuana. Among those age 65 and over, 40 percent said alcohol was most dangerous, compared to 28 percent for pot.

NORML, Zogby Poll

Hatuey said:
Show me why marijuana should remain illegal and you'll have proven why alcohol, aspirins and hundreds of other legal substances should be banned and made illegal.

Illogical.

Hatuey said:
Your agenda fools nobody. You simply won't.

If asking tough questions and pointing out errors in your facts or logic represents an 'agenda', then so be it. I simply won't what, btw?

Hatuey said:
Your inconsistency will show the minute you admit to having used alcohol or any other number of perfectly legal substances.

What does my use of alcohol or any other legal substances have to do with legalization of marijuana?

:shock::shock:

CaptainCourtesy · Mar 17, 2009

Moderator's Warning:

A few things. 1) TD, knock off the hyperpartisan attacking liberals crap. 2) Everyone cease the accusations of trolling. When you do that, you are trolling. This may cause me to act accordingly. 3) Everyone cease the personal attacks.

ReverendHellh0und · Mar 17, 2009

Hatuey said:
Do you think guns kill people? :lol: Your FIRST post established that you think marijuana makes people lazy :

Now. Do you think guns kill people?

More strawmen, you don't smoke guns. a pathetic try..... care to try again?

Zyphlin · Mar 17, 2009

Truth Detector said:
Here's a man touching on the truth. Unlike Zyph who continues to dodge, duck, deflect, but not address.

:roll:

Zyphlin said:
As I said, it will help the economy there I believe. Will it "solve it"? Probably not, for likely the same reasons as GottaHurt stated...they'll just find other ways to squander the money.

Remember TD, the "Five D's" were meant for Dodgeball, not for debating. Your initial question to me was a pointless deflection because I made mention of it in the post I directed towards you. Yes, I think its likely that its not going to "solve" California's issues because of its typical issues. That said, I think it has the possability of helping and I think it should be done whether it actually will help their economy or if it WOULD help their economy but their government ****s it up.

YOU however still haven't addressed the issue that, barring the potential for the government squandering it which is potentially likely but not garaunteed, it does possess the likely ability to help the economy out.

Truth Detector said:
I have to chuckle when I watch liberals rail about finding creative new ways to create jobs and tax revenue by legalizing a drug that turns you into a slobbering moron.

To quote Reverend "Link to study"? I'd love to see a study that shows ingesting of any marijuana turns you into a "slobbering moron".

I also take it you're against alcohol since if you hold it to the same standard "ingesting of any alcohol turns you into a beligerent moron". Right?

Yay! GO CONSERVATIVE! GO PROHIBITION! WOOOO, RESTRICT FREEDOM, REPUBLICAN REPUBLICAN REPUBLICAN WOOO!

thabigred · Mar 17, 2009

Grateful Heart said:
Well, I've been trying very hard to get people to look at the models of marijuana legalization around the world... such as the Netherlands. And it seems that the pro-legalization folks can't seem to accept that those models are all rife with problems.

:roll:

In the county next to mine they have a ban on alcohol for sale on sundays, but do they restrict people to drive to my county to buy alcohol?

No.

This is the beauty of living in country of seperated states, we can hold different laws and still function properly. Face it, you have a straw man arguement, how many people will drive many many miles out of there way to buy legal marijuana when they can get it cheaper on the street corner near their house.

Majority of smokers will not drive out of there way to obtain Marijuana, you need to realize this, and come up with a real arguement why you are skeptical of this legislation.

Kushinator · Mar 17, 2009

Truth Detector, do you still believe that legalizing marijuana would not reduce the scope and profitability of the illegal marijuana trade?

Dont worry, ill wait:2wave:

Kushinator · Mar 17, 2009

For all those interested: Costs of Marijuana Prohibition: Economic Analysis

Some clips:

[*]One issue in this debate is the effect of marijuana prohibition on government budgets. Prohibition entails direct enforcement costs and prevents taxation of marijuana production and sale.

[*]This report examines the budgetary implications of legalizing marijuana – taxing and regulating it like other goods – in all fifty states and at the federal level.

[*]The report estimates that legalizing marijuana would save $7.7 billion per year in government expenditure on enforcement of prohibition. $5.3 billion of this savings would accrue to state and local governments, while $2.4 billion would accrue to the federal government.

[*]The report also estimates that marijuana legalization would yield tax revenue of $2.4 billion annually if marijuana were taxed like all other goods and $6.2 billion annually if marijuana were taxed at rates comparable to those on alcohol and tobacco.

[*]The savings in state and local government expenditure that would result from marijuana legalization consists of three main components: the reduction in police resources from elimination of marijuana arrests; the reduction in prosecutorial and judicial resources from elimination of marijuana prosecutions; and the reduction in correctional resources from elimination of marijuana incarcerations.[2] There are other possible savings in government expenditure from legalization, but these are minor or difficult to estimate with existing data.[3] The omission of these items biases the estimated savings downward.

[*]To estimate the state savings in criminal justice resources, this report uses the following procedure. It estimates the percentage of arrests in a state for marijuana violations and multiplies this by the budget for police. It estimates the percentage of prosecutions in a state for marijuana violations and multiplies this by the budget for prosecutors and judges. It estimates the percentage of incarcerations in a state for marijuana violations and multiplies this by the budget for prisons. It then sums these components to estimate the overall reduction in government expenditure. Under plausible assumptions, this procedure yields a reasonable estimate of the cost savings from marijuana legalization.[4]

new coup for you · Mar 17, 2009

what problems does the Netherlands have that can possibly compare to the horrific things that go on in the War on Drugs.

The WOD makes the Patriot Act look positively libertarian.

Do you realize the the FDA is self funding AND self regulating?

The FDA and DEA decide on a drug scheduling- without congressional involvement in any way- and then then DEA decides on enforcement. The DEA is permitted to sell any seized property of convicted drug felons- and keep the proceeds.

So they FDA and the DEA write the laws and then the DEA collects their own funds.

They're their own government, accountable to no one.

Marilyn Monroe · Mar 17, 2009

Truth Detector said:
And imagine how productive we will all be when our airplane industry is supplanted by the pot industry.

Yes folks, it will be a blissful paradise; millions will be just sitting around toking and listening to Jimmy Hendrix instead of worrying about how to find a real job. But that will be okay because California and Obama will make it easier to survive without the burdens of worrying how to feed yourself there will be food stamps, or working because unemployment benefits will keep being extended, or paying your mortgage because rich taxpayers will subsidize yours.

After all, gambling is also a harmless activity. While we are making illegal drugs legal, we should also just legalize gambling! Think how productive we all will be!!!

Life is so simple if you can only get past life’s REALITIES.

Gambling is legal in almost all states to some degree. We do have lotteries in most states, and then there's bingo and card playing.

You're assuming everyone would want to smoke marijuana. I think not. Lots of people drink an occasional glass of wine, but don't drink the whole bottle, everyday. Most American's like having "stuff", and the thrill of competition, so I seriously doubt everybody would be non-productive even using marijuana regularly. Many of the negatives about marijuana are generalizations, and wouldn't be the norm for average users.

I think people need to have fun, and the more ways to do it, all the better.

ted bailey · Mar 17, 2009

UtahBill said:
go for it California!!!
But, restrictions to legally buy it or smoke it is to be over 21, gainfully employed, and not on welfare or food stamps.

I agree with the not allowing to use if there on welfare or food stamps. I'm sure many welfare and food stamp folks will be running to any job. That would take care of California’s unemployment rates and generate revenue!

marduc · Mar 17, 2009

ted bailey said:
I agree with the not allowing to use if there on welfare or food stamps. I'm sure many welfare and food stamp folks will be running to any job. That would take care of California’s unemployment rates and generate revenue!

What jobs?

rhinefire · Mar 17, 2009

Why not legalize everything nadjust tax it? It is the same principal. Stop arresting murderers and save the costs of court trials and prisons.

Kushinator · Mar 17, 2009

rhinefire said:
Why not legalize everything nadjust tax it? It is the same principal. Stop arresting murderers and save the costs of court trials and prisons.

Murder involves victimization. Your attempt at comparison is probably the most fallacious argument yet set forth by anti-drug proponents. When i get blazed off some dank ass chronic, who might i ask, is the victim? Myself? If that is truly your answer, than why not make McDonald's food illegal to consume, because it can be a major contributor to heart disease and child obesity, of which a great deal of despair and social rejection originates.

Marijuana does not kill you, and does not lead to obesity and heart disease on its own accord.

Question to those who are against drug legalization: Why is it ok to eat myself into poor health, and eventually death, but is not ok to get euphoric on a natural substance that has been used for thousands of years without any subnormal externality?

Grateful Heart · Mar 17, 2009

thabigred said:
...how many people will drive many many miles out of there way to buy legal marijuana when they can get it cheaper on the street corner near their house.

Majority of smokers will not drive out of there way to obtain Marijuana, you need to realize this, and come up with a real arguement why you are skeptical of this legislation.

Again.... you simply ignore the facts presented.

Where marijuana is legalized, people do indeed go many miles out of their way to obtain it:

Dutch cannabis policy challenged
The Dutch have long been famous for their tolerant attitude to cannabis.

But now they are re-examining their approach, because millions of European "drugs tourists" are heading to the Netherlands to do what they cannot do at home, the BBC's Mike Donkin reports.

BBC NEWS

Dutch Coffee Shops Close as Authorities Weed out Drug Tourists

Each year, thousands of German drug tourists cross the border into the Dutch town of Enschede, where soft drugs such as marijuana are sold openly. Now, a government crackdown is forcing many coffee shops out of business.

A dense, sweet-smelling smoke fills the room in the De Molen coffee shop. Here in the Dutch city of Enschede, the streets are littered with places like De Molen, which openly sell soft drugs such as hashish or marijuana.

But dozens of coffee shops have had to close shop in recent months, reflecting a growing consensus in the Netherlands that the country's notoriously liberal drug policy is currently doing more harm than good.

Enschede has been particularly problematic for local authorities, because of its immediate proximity to the German border. Thousands of drug tourists, mainly from Germany, pour across the border each year for a taste of legal marijuana, a controlled substance in almost every country of the world -- including, technically, the Netherlands.

"Many Germans come to visit Enschede just because of our coffee shops -- that is a fact," says Enschede city spokesman Michael Haase. Indeed, the nearest coffee shop is located just 300 meters beyond the border checkpoint.

The Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs has published a brochure complaining that shops located along the German border "frequently" cause trouble. And Haase says local residents are sometimes harassed by glassy-eyed drug tourists.

Enschede's drug trade has also become a liability for the border police, as drug tourists are regularly caught trying to smuggle the lucrative weed back into their home country.

DW Worldwide

Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

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