Can Marijuana Help Rescue California's Economy?

Truth Detector said:

Do you honestly think that by legalizing marijuana the drug cartels will be out of business?

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Well... there seems to be a lack of clear thought on most of these issues.

I've been subject to ad hominem arguments in this thread and accused of 'having an agenda.' Only because I've been pointing out obvious problems and asking tough questions.

The truth is I've never really had a strong conviction about legalizing marijuana. I don't believe pot is dangerous. But I think there would be some real problems associated with legalizing it. And those problems are apparent when looking at the models in other more liberal countries who've relaxed their rules...

They're still faced with restrictions on growing, trafficking and distribution. Something that IS a problem not associated with alcohol. I have little doubt, for instance, than many pot-smokers would love to 'grow-their-own.' No restrictions, right? At the same time, they suggest that it would be regulated like alcohol and cigarettes, therefore kept away from kids. But if seeds are legal, and you can 'grow your own,' then the regulation and taxation goes right out the window.

:doh

new coup for you said:

and the lower barrier to entry in selling weed allows people to raise funds for the much more lucrative hard drug business.

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To be fair, in terms of sheer volume of revenue, Marijuana is the most "lucrative". Now in terms of sheer weight invoked profit margins, yes heroin and cocaine reign supreme. A pure ounce of heroin can catch $5,000 easy, and can go as high as $15,000.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:

I think a comparison of the two is irrellevant. The fact that alcohol when abused is far worse than weed, does not mean that weed is good for you by any stretch of the imagination.

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no, it's not good for you. but that's not how the law works. the law works on the principle of consistency (or at least common law does).

so if we allow a substance which does "x" social damage but not another which does exactly the same amount of damage, it's not justice, it's arbitrary favoritism.

all of which is actually irrelevant because a) weed really isn't that bad for you and b) the benefits of legalization vastly outweigh the genuine damages it does cause and c)the damage caused by weed being illegal is far greater then the damage caused weed use

I'll say it again, weed is illegal because old conservatives still hate hippies, the prison industrial complex lobbies legislatures and because cops like being able to lock people up based upon their discretion.

CaptainCourtesy said:

The error in your reasoning is that it is not the marijuana that helps you focus. It is the act of having the distorted perception that forces you to attempt to focus more. You would get the same reaction if you had to do something, while being in a lot of pain. Marijuana is not the issue. Overcoming an issue is.



Yes, I did...in passing. Others mentioned the cancer issue. Smoking it is but one of the health effects. Although ingesting it in other ways is much safer, similar to heavy alcohol use, heavy marijuana use will cause some of these other health effects.

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1. I would rather get past these semantics, I disagree that it is only your perception being distorted that does this, we are totally obliged to disagree on those points.

2. Regular use of marijuana through non-smoking usage would not compare to the same usage of alcohol over time. Just because they are both intoxicants, does not mean they effect our bodies the same way.

Goldenboy219 said:

To be fair, in terms of sheer volume of revenue, Marijuana is the most "lucrative". Now in terms of sheer weight invoked profit margins, yes heroin and cocaine reign supreme. A pure ounce of heroin can catch $5,000 easy, and can go as high as $15,000.

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exactly, and in terms of labor per dollar, the hard drugs also have a better margin. selling three tons of weed is a lot harder then 100 lbs of heroin, purely from a logistical stand point.

new coup for you said:

exactly, and in terms of labor per dollar, the hard drugs also have a better margin. selling three tons of weed is a lot harder then 100 lbs of heroin, purely from a logistical stand point.

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Known as the gateway drug dealer.

new coup for you said:

no, it's not good for you. but that's not how the law works. the law works on the principle of consistency (or at least common law does).

so if we allow a substance which does "x" social damage but not another which does exactly the same amount of damage, it's not justice, it's arbitrary favoritism.

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Yet the pro-legalization folks have gone out of their way to demonstrate why alcohol and marijuana are very, very different... which means you can't make a strict comparison between "x" and "y" like that.

For instance, we've been told that kids don't drink in school (but do get stoned in school) because drunks are obvious and obnoxious and easy to detect. While stoned kids are quiet and sly and nearly impossible to detect. So right off the bat, you've got a huge difference that must be taken into account.

I've also heard several pro-legalization advocates talk about 'growing their own'. As I mentioned a few posts back... 'growing your own' is an issue that must be dealt with... which is why some countries allow possession but don't allow cultivation. Cultivation is simply not an issue with tobacco and alcohol. Again... it makes a straightforward "x" vs. "y" comparison difficult, at best. In fact I'd suggest there's so much difference that there's hardly much comparison at all.

Grateful Heart said:

Yet the pro-legalization folks have gone out of their way to demonstrate why alcohol and marijuana are very, very different... which means you can't make a strict comparison between "x" and "y" like that.

For instance, we've been told that kids don't drink in school (but do get stoned in school) because drunks are obvious and obnoxious and easy to detect. While stoned kids are quiet and sly and nearly impossible to detect. So right off the bat, you've got a huge difference that must be taken into account.

I've also heard several pro-legalization advocates talk about 'growing their own'. As I mentioned a few posts back... 'growing your own' is an issue that must be dealt with... which is why some countries allow possession but don't allow cultivation. Cultivation is simply not an issue with tobacco and alcohol. Again... it makes a straightforward "x" vs. "y" comparison difficult, at best. In fact I'd suggest there's so much difference that there's hardly much comparison at all.

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All that has to be done is prove that weed is less dangerous or as dangerous as alcohol. I think that's been done pretty succinctly.

Plenty of people both brew their own beer and grow their own tobacco. Home brewing is particularly a popular hobby.

Stoned kids are impossible to detect? Lets reinterpret this statement: Stoned kids aren't doing anything worth detecting. If someone is sitting quietly and unobtrusively but their stoned, why do you care?

Grateful Heart said:

I've also heard several pro-legalization advocates talk about 'growing their own'. As I mentioned a few posts back... 'growing your own' is an issue that must be dealt with... which is why some countries allow possession but don't allow cultivation. Cultivation is simply not an issue with tobacco and alcohol. Again... it makes a straightforward "x" vs. "y" comparison difficult, at best. In fact I'd suggest there's so much difference that there's hardly much comparison at all.

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The comparison of two drugs is quite valid in the x vs y standard. To say that you cannot compare two substances which have different "qualities" but similar addictive motivation (to catch a buzz), is in essence stating that you cannot compare anything at all. Do you believe comparison is illogical?

Goldenboy219 said:

It is well documented that black markets restrict discrete supply, and therefore keeps the pricing mechanism in the fashion of an exverted supply curve and an exverted demand curve. Therefore the situations of quantity surpluses will fail to reduce price at almost all levels.

To sum it up, these are super windfall profits for the high risk, high reward illicit drug business.

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The above never addressed my question, want to try again?

Do you honestly think that by legalizing marijuana the drug cartels will be out of business?

Grateful Heart said:

Well... there seems to be a lack of clear thought on most of these issues.

I've been subject to ad hominem arguments in this thread and accused of 'having an agenda.' Only because I've been pointing out obvious problems and asking tough questions.

The truth is I've never really had a strong conviction about legalizing marijuana. I don't believe pot is dangerous. But I think there would be some real problems associated with legalizing it. And those problems are apparent when looking at the models in other more liberal countries who've relaxed their rules...

They're still faced with restrictions on growing, trafficking and distribution. Something that IS a problem not associated with alcohol. I have little doubt, for instance, than many pot-smokers would love to 'grow-their-own.' No restrictions, right? At the same time, they suggest that it would be regulated like alcohol and cigarettes, therefore kept away from kids. But if seeds are legal, and you can 'grow your own,' then the regulation and taxation goes right out the window.

:doh

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Your points are valid but do not expect honesty from the legalize drug crowd; that would require removing their willing suspension of disbelief and denial.

:2wave:

Truth Detector said:

The above never addressed my question, want to try again?

Do you honestly think that by legalizing marijuana the drug cartels will be out of business?

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Come on now, try to stay with me here. If taxation (reduced revenue) is detrimental to business, then how does reduced revenue not limit the scope and profitability of drug dealing?

Its a supply side issue. At lower prices, "firms" are less likely to enter the market on a "per margin" basis. Understand?

Goldenboy219 said:

Come on now, try to stay with me here. If taxation (reduced revenue) is detrimental to business, then how does reduced revenue not limit the scope and profitability of drug dealing?

Its a supply side issue. At lower prices, "firms" are less likely to enter the market on a "per margin" basis. Understand?

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So you think that if the State of California taxes marijuana, the drug cartels are going to go out of business because of reduced profitability thanks to the taxes?

Where do I begin addressing such absurd notions?

By the way, do you also believe that when corporations and businesses are taxed they do not pass those costs onto their consumers/customers?

:rofl

Truth Detector said:

The above never addressed my question, want to try again?

Do you honestly think that by legalizing marijuana the drug cartels will be out of business?

Click to expand...

No, but they will have a serious reduction in profit, the only way to put them out of business completely is to legalize and control all drugs, but I am not going to try to shove that horse pill down your mouth.

Marijuana is far and away their largest cash cow, and a substantial chunk of their profits.

Will they start focusing more on other drugs like cocaine, and heroine to make up the difference?? yes. However the demand is and will continue to be a small subset of the population. I would in fact argue that it would drop since the ease or temptation to try a little bit of coke because your buddy who you get pot from happens to have it. The wide open pipeline to the black market vending these harder substances will be barricaded. Scores of casual relations nurtured solely for attaining marijuana that so happen to also know where to get other substances would dry up. Harder drugs get tried very often because they just so happen to be at the shelves at the market so to speak.

As an analogy, lets say that suddenly Microsoft was ordered to stop selling Windows. Would it put them out of business?? No they would go on, trying to sell their other softwares, however their revenue would take a massive hit. Sure they would still have their other softwares to vend, however the sheer volume of users who have used Windows will not suddenly decide to get into the latest MS Office as a result, despite MS's attempts to bump up production and sales of this product to make up for some of the lost income. It already has a defined market, and those who the product does not appeal to will continue to not be appealed to it.

Truth Detector said:

So you think that if the State of California taxes marijuana, the drug cartels are going to go out of business because of reduced profitability thanks to the taxes?

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Legalization will draw down the supply curve, thereby lowering the commodity price of said drugs; be it cannabis, heroin, etc..., that is the entire point. Lower prices = less drug dealers. The current cost of high grade marijuana, truly high grade, ranges from $400-$1500/oz. This is the definition of windfall black market profits.

When i go into Amsterdam, or even cannabis dispensaries in Oakland, the quality is high yet prices are still relatively low compared to illicit dealers.

In order to tax marijuana effectively (it already is taxed in medicann dispensaries) it has to be completely decriminalized, and aloud to be cultivated by firms. Otherwise, how are taxes going to be levied in illegal transactions

Pay attention now. Legalized cannabis = lower commodity prices.

Where do I begin addressing such absurd notions?

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Just end it there

By the way, do you also believe that when corporations and businesses are taxed they do not pass those costs onto their consumers/customers?

:rofl

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Please try to stay with me. Marijuana's black market induced pricing mechanism provides potential drug dealers the incentive to enter the market. Prices are high because risks associated, combined with a lack of enabled open competition among suppliers.

Any drug dealer will tell you that they do not wish any drugs to become legalized. How you fail to understand this concept is beyond me.

If the price of cannabis goes from $20/g to $10/g via legalization, and a 25% tax is levied, that equates to......... :roll: If a 100% tax was implemented, and prices were driven back to black market levels, market equilibrium will be shifted back as well. Therefore the entire point of the tax would be negated as illicit drug dealers would be motivated to sell at $19/g, thereby bringing us back to square one.

You are implementing taxation as a demand issue. It is not:2wave:

Even if there is no change in the profitability of the drug business (a remote possibility) as a society the US will benefit from not interning people who pose no danger to society or themselves (at least not any significant danger to themselves). We'll benefit because our fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters wont be sent to jail needlessly and because the government wont be paying for it.

Truth Detector said:

Your points are valid but do not expect honesty from the legalize drug crowd; that would require removing their willing suspension of disbelief and denial.

:2wave:

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What I would like to expect is a lack of stereotyping and reciprocal honesty from all. :roll:

marduc said:

No, but they will have a serious reduction in profit, the only way to put them out of business completely is to legalize and control all drugs, but I am not going to try to shove that horse pill down your mouth.

Marijuana is far and away their largest cash cow, and a substantial chunk of their profits.

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Who is going to grow all this marijuana that the Government makes legal and tax?

marduc said:

Will they start focusing more on other drugs like cocaine, and heroine to make up the difference?? yes. However the demand is and will continue to be a small subset of the population. I would in fact argue that it would drop since the ease or temptation to try a little bit of coke because your buddy who you get pot from happens to have it. The wide open pipeline to the black market vending these harder substances will be barricaded. Scores of casual relations nurtured solely for attaining marijuana that so happen to also know where to get other substances would dry up. Harder drugs get tried very often because they just so happen to be at the shelves at the market so to speak.

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The issue isn’t whether they will focus on “other” drugs like cocaine and heroine, the issue is they will continue to grow Marijuana which will be LEGAL and continue attempting to get people HOOKED on cocaine and heroine which are far more profitable and easy to move than tons of Cannabis.

There is a LOT of evidence that marijuana merely leads to much stronger drug use. After a while, you just can’t get the thrill from smoking dope and turn to stronger alternatives.

The notion that the drug trade will somehow go away and enforcement problems will be minimized by legalization are absurd arguments that are not supported by the facts. The notion that many people smoke dope because it helps them to relax or concentrate is equally specious; it is to get a thrill. And once that thrill is worn out, they usually turn to stronger drugs for their “thrills.”

marduc said:

As an analogy, lets say that suddenly Microsoft was ordered to stop selling Windows. Would it put them out of business?? No they would go on, trying to sell their other softwares, however their revenue would take a massive hit. Sure they would still have their other softwares to vend, however the sheer volume of users who have used Windows will not suddenly decide to get into the latest MS Office as a result, despite MS's attempts to bump up production and sales of this product to make up for some of the lost income. It already has a defined market, and those who the product does not appeal to will continue to not be appealed to it.

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Yes, quite the argument comparing computer software to mind altering drugs; you cannot possibly be serious can you?

:rofl

Carry on; remember what the debate is about; Marijuana will rescue California's economy. It won't because we heard the same specious arguments about the lottery solving our school budget problems, how cigarette taxes would solve our budget problems etc etc ect; yet we always seem to have a budget problem.

If you honestly believe this argument, there is a bridge in Arizona I would like to sell you.

Now why do you suppose that is? Could it be that our Government officials spend money like addicts do drugs? :roll:

marduc said:

What I would like to expect is a lack of stereotyping and reciprocal honesty from all. :roll:

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What irony; a Liberal wanting honesty. :2wave:

new coup for you said:

Plenty of people both brew their own beer and grow their own tobacco. Home brewing is particularly a popular hobby.

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Are you seriously suggesting that people in this country, other than a few hobbyists, brew or distill their own beer and liquor on a regular basis? Or cultivate tobacco to make their own cigarettes?

And are you denying that 'growing your own' is actually quite popular among regular weed smokers? And probably would be even if legalized?

new coup for you said:

Stoned kids are impossible to detect? Lets reinterpret this statement: Stoned kids aren't doing anything worth detecting. If someone is sitting quietly and unobtrusively but their stoned, why do you care?

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Now your making a case that it's okay for kids to be stoned in school? We shouldn't care?

:shock:

Truth Detector said:

Who is going to grow all this marijuana that the Government makes legal and tax?

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The same famers that already do.

ABC News: Marijuana Called Top U.S. Cash Crop

new coup for you said:

Even if there is no change in the profitability of the drug business (a remote possibility) as a society the US will benefit from not interning people who pose no danger to society or themselves (at least not any significant danger to themselves). We'll benefit because our fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, sons and daughters wont be sent to jail needlessly and because the government wont be paying for it.

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Here's a thought; they wouldn't be going to jail if they don't break the LAW!!!

What a concept eh? What an absurd argument and of course, a typical Liberal appeal to emotions rather than well thought out philosophical arguments.

Your argument is about as trite as Rodney when he pleaded “wha wha why ca ca can’t we all just ge ge get along.”

winston53660 said:

The same famers that already do.

ABC News: Marijuana Called Top U.S. Cash Crop

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Ha ha ha; "In the report, Gettman, a marijuana-reform activist and leader of the Coalition for Rescheduling Cannabis, champions a system of legal regulation. "

Are you really this gullible? I mean REALLY?

I expect it from the Liberal media, but from people who are supposedly informed on this forum? :rofl

Oh my, carry on.

Like I stated earlier, the thread premise was Marijuana help rescue California's economy.

I have yet to see a reasoned coherent argument that would suggest it will and instead the thread is blathered by the typical nonsense one would see in the legalize drugs threads.

Truth Detector said:

Ha ha ha; "In the report, Gettman, a marijuana-reform activist and leader of the Coalition for Rescheduling Cannabis, champions a system of legal regulation. "

Are you really this gullible? I mean REALLY?

I expect it from the Liberal media, but from people who are supposedly informed on this forum? :rofl

Oh my, carry on.

Like I stated earlier, the thread premise was Marijuana help rescue California's economy.

I have yet to see a reasoned coherent argument that would suggest it will and instead the thread is blathered by the typical nonsense one would see in the legalize drugs threads.

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Domestically grown marijuana is Kentucky’s number one cash crop"


Marijuana Statistics
...........

I hope California keeps pushing this, Americans need something to relax after being so openly ****ed in the ass by wallstreet.