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Most religious groups in USA have lost ground, survey finds

GarzaUK said:
There is stats, I can't remember where on the net that shows that the more educated you are the less likely you are to be religious or at least hold weak religious views. There of course always exceptions.
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Well let's see this profound evidence! Defend your hypothesis.
 
Truth Detector said:
How does a decline of religious belief and morality benefit a society?

Are you one of the few who believe it takes a village to raise a child?
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I personally think that similar (however perhaps not as restrictive) moral codes would exist without religion. I also think that society would be just fine without it. I realize, however, that some people need hope or an answer to the meaning of life and religion can provide them with that.

I would have no problem with religion if people didn't try to force it on others or if people in positions of power wouldn't let it influence their decision making so much.
 
Truth Detector said:
How does a decline of religious belief and morality benefit a society?

Are you one of the few who believe it takes a village to raise a child?
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Morality? Well Scandinavia which is pretty much the atheist place in Europe has lower abortion rates and teen pregnencies than the US, also lower Sexually Transmitted Infection rate than the US. I'm pretty sure there crime rates are lower than the US's as well.

Yeah living in an atheist majority country is a horrible horrible life. Religious belief does not = morality.
 
dclxvinoise said:
I personally think that similar (however perhaps not as restrictive) moral codes would exist without religion. I also think that society would be just fine without it.
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It is because of religion that we have a moral code. Morality cannot exist without religious faith in my opinion.

Man is capable of horrible acts upon his fellow man even with the threat of hell; can you imagine what man might be capable of if we have no faith there is a heaven or a God to judge us?

dclxvinoise said:
I would have no problem with religion if people didn't try to force it on others or if people in positions of power wouldn't let it influence their decision making so much.
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So did some religious group come to your door and twist your arm to make you join them?

I hear this specious argument all the time and to be honest, I have NEVER in my 54 years felt pressured to join any religion. There is only one place where that pressure seems to exist, and that is in the Middle East.

So do tell what statistics support the notion that people of faith are trying to force their religion on you. On the other hand, I see a tiny minority of atheists trying to FORCE their views on a large majority who have faith; removal of crosses from public property, taking "In God We Trust" off our money etc etc etc.
 
dclxvinoise said:
I personally think that similar (however perhaps not as restrictive) moral codes would exist without religion. I also think that society would be just fine without it.
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There are certain moral codes that are rooted in tradition that are superfelous to the fundamental tenants of the religion. I will direct you to my signature. I believe you cannot maintain a society of human beings without observation of the ethic of reciprocity, a tenant found in every major religion. I believe the prophets are the bearers of sacred knowledge which reveals itself every single day.

I realize, however, that some people need hope or an answer to the meaning of life and religion can provide them with that.
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No it cannot.
 
GarzaUK said:
Morality? Well Scandinavia which is pretty much the atheist place in Europe has lower abortion rates and teen pregnencies than the US, also lower Sexually Transmitted Infection rate than the US. I'm pretty sure there crime rates are lower than the US's as well.

Yeah living in an atheist majority country is a horrible horrible life. Religious belief does not = morality.
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Really? Do you have any per capita data to support this hypothesis?

I am always amused when Europeans desperate to make their points about Socialism or morality point to nations that have the population of Los Angeles.
 
Truth Detector said:
It is because of religion that we have a moral code. Morality cannot exist without religious faith in my opinion.

Man is capable of horrible acts upon his fellow man even with the threat of hell; can you imagine what man might be capable of if we have no faith there is a heaven or a God to judge us?
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Perhaps in some way religion nudged us in the right direction, but many of the moral codes that most people have I think would have been there without religion. I could see your point if everyone was of the same religion, but they aren't.

Well, personally I think that it's pretty lame if the only thing that makes some people be decent to others is the threat of a hell. People should genuinely want to be decent to each other.

So did some religious group come to your door and twist your arm to make you join them?
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No, but they have come to my door which is annoying. I'm a perfectly capable person. I could go to them if I were interested in joining their ranks. One shouldn't have to sell others on the merits of their religion in order to boost church numbers.

I hear this specious argument all the time and to be honest, I have NEVER in my 54 years felt pressured to join any religion. There is only one place where that pressure seems to exist, and that is in the Middle East.

So do tell what statistics support the notion that people of faith are trying to force their religion on you. On the other hand, I see a tiny minority of atheists trying to FORCE their views on a large majority who have faith; removal of crosses from public property, taking "In God We Trust" off our money etc etc etc.
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One doesn't need statistics. I personally see no difference between a religious person coming to my door and a telemarketer calling me. Like I said, I'm a perfectly capable person and could seek them out if I were interested in joining. And I agree with you that there are Atheists who are just as fundamentalist and forceful as some Christians can be. I personally find that incredibly ironic considering that Atheists have rejected Christianity, yet engage in similar tactics as some of them. I have no problem with crosses on public property as long as other religions can display similar icons from their religion on public property. As for the "In God We Trust" thing, it only first appeared on money during the McCarthy era, so it isn't like it is a time honored tradition that dates back to our forefathers.
 
niftydrifty said:
LOL, you don't even know that you had one?!
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no I didn't. That why I asked you what it was!

that the result of this poll has something to do with existence of God.
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It doesn't. If you read carefully its a poll about religious self-identification and the change that has occurred.

that your version of God can be puffed away by logic.
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That's the partial story of why my beliefs changed (note: the article mentions that 40% change their religion/beliefs or something to that extent). But I used that quote because its just plain funny; and not out of spite for religion or God. Lighten up gramps :mrgreen:
 
BulletWounD said:
There are certain moral codes that are rooted in tradition that are superfelous to the fundamental tenants of the religion. I will direct you to my signature. I believe you cannot maintain a society of human beings without observation of the ethic of reciprocity, a tenant found in every major religion. I believe the prophets are the bearers of sacred knowledge which reveals itself every single day.
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Like I said, I think religion gave people a nudge in the right direction. However, I think there are some basics in the moral code such as being against killing and thievery that people probably would have been capable of coming up with on their own.

No it cannot.
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Actually, as far as they are concerned it can and that's really all that matters, isn't it? They may be completely fooling themselves, but that is their choice to do so.
 
Truth Detector said:
Really? Do you have any per capita data to support this hypothesis?

I am always amused when Europeans desperate to make their points about Socialism or morality point to nations that have the population of Los Angeles.
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Its RATES, RATES!! Population has nothing to do with it. For example how many abortions per 1000 thousand pregnencies. Its basic mathematics.

Anyway here is what I can whip up so quickly. As you can see Europe is way behind the US in abortion rates, however they are far more atheistic than the US.

Abortion Rates
isb_0599_fd.gif


What I have told you is true, Im surprised you do not know, because I thought this was common knowledge.

Abortion in Context: United States and Worldwide
 
dclxvinoise said:
Like I said, I think religion gave people a nudge in the right direction. However, I think there are some basics in the moral code such as being against killing and thievery that people probably would have been capable of coming up with on their own.
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What is a prophet? He is a teacher. The ethic of reciprocity is counter to human nature. We are self-interested creatures of emotion (see my post here. I believe it takes a special connection with God (or the Tao, or Brahman, or whatever you want to call him ((Bhuddists don't ascribe a name to him as they feel that language cannot describe him they dont even call him "him.")) to be able to recognize the fundamental truth of the ethic of reciprocity. This connection exists to a certain degree in all of us, but I believe that in the absence of these prophets, who posses a very special (though probably imperfect) connection with God, I believe human kind would not be able to progress.

Now, in order to take a teacher seriously one must establish their credibility. What is it that makes these prophets so credible? The way that they lived their lives. They provided an example for others to follow (although people by their very nature can only follow them to a certain extent).

Actually, as far as they are concerned it can and that's really all that matters, isn't it? They may be completely fooling themselves, but that is their choice to do so.
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Religion cannot provide the answers, only enlightenment can and that is limited to the select few (the prophets). Whether people feel they've got the answers is another question, but as you said, they are fooling themselves.
 
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BulletWounD said:
What is a prophet? He is a teacher. The ethic of reciprocity is counter to human nature. We are self-interested creatures of emotion (see my post here. I believe it takes a special connection with God (or the Tao, or Brahman, or whatever you want to call him ((Bhuddists don't ascribe a name to him as they feel that language cannot describe him they dont even call him "him.")) to be able to recognize the fundamental truth of the ethic of reciprocity. This connection exists to a certain degree in all of us, but I believe that in the absence of these prophets, who posses a very special (though probably imperfect) connection with God, I believe human kind would not be able to progress.
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I disagree. I think that in a lot of cases religion stands in the way of progress.

Now, in order to take a teacher seriously one must establish their credibility. What is it that makes these prophets so credible? The way that they lived their lives. They provided an example for others to follow (although people by their very nature can only follow them to a certain extent).
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Well, if a person today claimed to talk to God he/she would be locked up in a crazy house. Why are the people of the past somehow more believable? Because it says so in a book? I just think that we should allow ourselves to question things rather than deciding that THIS must be the answer and if you don't believe THIS will happen to you. I just don't buy it.

Religion cannot provide the answers, only enlightenment can and that is limited to the select few (the prophets). Whether people feel they've got the answers is another question, but as you said, they are fooling themselves.
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No, I said that they may be fooling themselves. I personally don't believe that religion provides any answers for the meaning of life, but I could be wrong. I just think it's far more complicated than that.
 
GarzaUK said:
Its RATES, RATES!! Population has nothing to do with it. For example how many abortions per 1000 thousand pregnencies. Its basic mathematics.

Anyway here is what I can whip up so quickly. As you can see Europe is way behind the US in abortion rates, however they are far more atheistic than the US.

Abortion Rates
isb_0599_fd.gif


What I have told you is true, Im surprised you do not know, because I thought this was common knowledge.

Abortion in Context: United States and Worldwide
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Yeah but the cool countries such as Spain, Italy, and Greece have a lot of people believe in God. It's the metro northern euro types that have become high minded and weak and think its cool to forget God. The poor around the world, the people with heart, haven't forgotten God. Oh, and the trend is just the opposite for the LDS. The more highly educated a member, the far more likely of higher degree of belief, activeness, etc.
 
dclxvinoise said:
I disagree. I think that in a lot of cases religion stands in the way of progress.
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You're entitled to your opinion. I am enlightening you as to mine.

Well, if a person today claimed to talk to God he/she would be locked up in a crazy house.
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If that person really was God, then who would be in the right? Importantly, none of the prophets ever claimed to be God although their followers (particularly Christians) sometimes retroactively ascribe that attribute to them. Even amongst Christians, the nature of Jesus's relationship with God is the subject of much debate.

Why are the people of the past somehow more believable? Because it says so in a book?
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If people observed miracles in real time, then they would accept it just as faithfully as a book. I suppose the belief in scripture can be traced back to trust. We trust our parents, who trusted their parents, who trusted their parents (etc.) all the way back to those who either experienced it or were very good liars.

I just think that we should allow ourselves to question things rather than deciding that THIS must be the answer and if you don't believe THIS will happen to you. I just don't buy it.
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I too think we should should question the nature of reality, however this is contrary to atheism. No matter how solid one's belief is, one must accept that he does not really know for certain.

No, I said that they may be fooling themselves. I personally don't believe that religion provides any answers for the meaning of life, but I could be wrong. I just think it's far more complicated than that.
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At least you've accepted that your views are based on belief.
 
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Truth Detector said:
It is because of religion that we have a moral code. Morality cannot exist without religious faith in my opinion.
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since you ask everyone to prove their opinions, why don't you? I'm sure you are clever enough to devise some sort of proof.

Man is capable of horrible acts upon his fellow man even with the threat of hell; can you imagine what man might be capable of if we have no faith there is a heaven or a God to judge us?
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it would be HORRIBLE! Think about it. No matter how much forgiveness or praying or sorry you felt your actions are permanent. No sky-god to forgive your actions or to make you feel better or to correct the wrongs of the world. Life is even MORE precious and wicked actions are even more grievous because they are PERMANENT!

On the other hand, I see a tiny minority of atheists trying to FORCE their views on a large majority who have faith; removal of crosses from public property, taking "In God We Trust" off our money etc etc etc.
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Unless such religious references can be sufficiently shown as art or relevant history they shouldn't be there. If they can't then its actually the religious trying to indirectly push their religion on others, even such attempts are benign.

Something to ponder: enforcing tolerance is not intolerant of offenders.
 
People are finally waking up to the fact that most religions are simply man-made, ego-tripping crutches to make folks feel better about being 6 Foot Under.
 
Kali said:
People are finally waking up to the fact that most religions are simply man-made, ego-tripping crutches to make folks feel better about being 6 Foot Under.
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I guess this conversation was becoming too constructive. :roll:
 
laska said:
Yeah but the cool countries such as Spain, Italy, and Greece have a lot of people believe in God. It's the metro northern euro types that have become high minded and weak and think its cool to forget God. The poor around the world, the people with heart, haven't forgotten God. Oh, and the trend is just the opposite for the LDS. The more highly educated a member, the far more likely of higher degree of belief, activeness, etc.
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so it's indicative to you that religion is correct because it's primarily practiced by people squatting in huts without electricity?

god forbid we abandon the "successful" Calcutta model instead of tried and failed Copenhagen model.
 
May be my fellow atheists can show their faces in public now. :mrgreen:
 
laska said:
Yeah but the cool countries such as Spain, Italy, and Greece have a lot of people believe in God. It's the metro northern euro types that have become high minded and weak and think its cool to forget God. The poor around the world, the people with heart, haven't forgotten God. Oh, and the trend is just the opposite for the LDS. The more highly educated a member, the far more likely of higher degree of belief, activeness, etc.
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I'll admit it. I shed a tear. The poor people around the world. In other words the group that is made up in overwhelming number by what we in Western society consider : the uneducated, the uncivilized, the miserable. Are the people who have faith in God. Is that an argument as to why we should believe in God? Because the majority of this planet which is made up of unfortunate sops who've never seen anything but suffering believe in God? Pretty strong. I mean if I'd never eaten anything other then dried corn and rice I'd probably believe in God to. Why not? I'd have nothing else to hope for other then a happy ending when my suffering is over. On the other hand if I had been born in say Sweden and had enjoyed at the very least a balanced diet with the essentials. Then I wouldn't have as much a need to focus on what is at the proverbial end of the road. It sounds to me like you just made an argument for how the human spirit always seems to able to imagine a reward after hardship.
 
Oh dear! We must be an exception to the rule. In our little interdenominational church of 49 members, we gained two new members last Sunday.
We don't have "rules" and silly manmade stuff. We just believe in God, Jesus, and try to help our neighbors as best we can. It's a peaceful place of love and support and trying to do what's right in a world where sometimes it seems it's all gone wrong.
Purrs,
Pookie
 
BulletWounD said:
You're entitled to your opinion. I am enlightening you as to mine.
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I fully realize that we are both expressing personal opinion here.

If that person really was God, then who would be in the right? Importantly, none of the prophets ever claimed to be God although their followers (particularly Christians) sometimes retroactively ascribe that attribute to them. Even amongst Christians, the nature of Jesus's relationship with God is the subject of much debate.
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I realize that. I'm just talking about how these types of people are perceived by the rest of the world.

If people observed miracles in real time, then they would accept it just as faithfully as a book. I suppose the belief in scripture can be traced back to trust. We trust our parents, who trusted their parents, who trusted their parents (etc.) all the way back to those who either experienced it or were very good liars.
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Well, that's really kind of weak, don't you think? Perhaps that's one of the reasons why fewer people are religious in this country.

I too think we should should question the nature of reality, however this is contrary to atheism. No matter how solid one's belief is, one must accept that he does not really know for certain.
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I agree and as I said before, there are plenty of Atheists who are just as fundamentalist and pushy as some Christians can be.
 
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