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Man slays sister for honour

Zyphlin said:
--Show me those countries where a woman is running legitimately the chance to be in one of the highest offices in the land (Hillary in the primaries, Palin in the general). That one of the most powerful legislators is a female (Pelosi). Where there are independent business owners, private bosses, all the way up to CEO's that are female? --
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I think you will find that even in Pakistan there has already been a female leader (Benazir Bhutto) and that there are already female CEO's of companies.

I'm not defending Pakistan, certainly it's no real "ally" as some on this forum believe it to be in the war in Afghanistan - and female leaders have been shot either for running for Prime Minister (Bhutto) or Zilla Huma Usman (female minister in govt 2006) for refusing to wear a veil and being a female rights activist. However, it is right that SgtRock posts these stories - I would like to also see more stories about women like Zilla Huma Usman too however - facing Islamic extremists in her own country is a brave thing to do and something she paid for with her life.
 
What is the 'honor' in killing your own family members? That is something I do not understand. I mean you have to be pretty messed up in the head to believe your God would want you to kill your daughter because her head wasn't properly covered.
 
There was a time when Christians were known to commit similar acts in the name of religion. How did that stop?
 
Middleground said:
I agree, and feel lucky to live in a country that treats women in an almost equal manner. The honour killings, battery acid scarring, and maiming of women in other countries has got to stop.
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I hope with all my might that when my precious grand daughter reaches adulthood the same can be said. Except, without the word "almost."
 
americanwoman said:
What is the 'honor' in killing your own family members? That is something I do not understand. I mean you have to be pretty messed up in the head to believe your God would want you to kill your daughter because her head wasn't properly covered.
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Ya think?

I have said it until I'm blue in the face. Middle Eastern traditions are Venus and western traditions is Mars. More than poles apart. They are world's apart.

But, I'm a live and live kinda guy. And I'm for the "melting pot" philosophy that has made our wonderfully diverse nation what it is today. However, just as some metals should never be smelted together, neither should various cultures.

Why can't everybody just stay on their own side of the world?
 
Captain America said:
Ya think?

I have said it until I'm blue in the face. Middle Eastern traditions are Venus and western traditions is Mars. More than poles apart. They are world's apart.

But, I'm a live and live kinda guy. And I'm for the "melting pot" philosophy that has made our wonderfully diverse nation what it is today. However, just as some metals should never be smelted together, neither should various cultures.

Why can't everybody just stay on their own side of the world?
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I couldn't agree with you more.
 
Tashah said:
I hope you do stick with it Sgt. Most Westerners either have no idea of the scope of the problem or they consider it a taboo subject because it exposes the seamy underside of Islam. In one notorius case in Israel, 6 Muslim females from one family were murdered (honor-killings) before other terrified female family members finally agreed to cooperate with the police. :(
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They do not expose the seamy underside of Islam. They expose the seamy underside of humanity.

As has been clearly pointed out on prior occasions, honor killings are by no means the domain solely of Islam, nor was the practice invented by Muslims.

Honor killings predate Islam and are performed by many who are not Muslim.

How about we work on exposing the seamy underside of western ignorance?
 
There are just as many honour killings in India as there are in the worst Middle Eastern countries. Sgt, I ignore your cause mostly because you focus on Muslim honour killings only. This is a global issue that spans all the continents, it's not just a problem with radical Islam. It's an insane-o-womanizer issue.

The status of women in the world is too important to be trivialized by focusing on this one cultural niche. In every country women are beaten to a pulp by their crazy boyfriends, husbands, fathers, uncles, etc. It's called abuse and it knows no borders.
 
Well, here in the good ol' US of A, we call domestic violence "domestic violence" and the perpatrators of such are ostracized and incarcerated. We do NOT look upon them as acts of honor. (UNLESS, you kick the sh** out of your sister's boyfriend because he beat her. That's honorable in my book! :shock:)

But you are 100% right. Everywhere, all cultures, need to STOP hurting our women NOW! But I know, that's like asking the sun not to come up. Yeah, they can be a pain in the arse and push all the wrong buttons but VIOLENCE is NOT acceptable. Just leave before it comes to that.

It most likely will never stop. That is why I have no personal objection to removing those prone to such violence from the gene pool altogether. That includes the women who get violent too. Maybe that's why nobody ever puts me in charge. :mrgreen:
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
As has been clearly pointed out on prior occasions, honor killings are by no means the domain solely of Islam, nor was the practice invented by Muslims.
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I have posted many times that honor-killings are not unique to Islam. Sgt. Rock has also made this abundantly clear. The phenomenon is a global one. Nevertheless, if someone wishes to focus primarily on one aspect of honor-killing, that's fine by me. Any publicity is better than no publicity.
 
My point is that honor killings are not Islamic in nature, period. They are a function of a pre-existing culture which predates Islam, so threads like these do not, as you previously asserted they do, expose the "seamy underbelly" if Islam.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
My point is that honor killings are not Islamic in nature, period. They are a function of a pre-existing culture which predates Islam, so threads like these do not, as you previously asserted they do, expose the "seamy underbelly" if Islam.
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Technically you are correct. I'll rephrase. Most female honor-killings occur in predominantly Muslim countries. Over 5000 women and girls are killed every year by family members in so-called 'honour killings' according to the UN. These crimes occur where cultures believe that a woman's unsanctioned sexual behaviour brings such shame on the family that any female accused or suspected must be murdered. Reasons for these murders can be as trivial as talking to a man, or as innocent as suffering rape.
 
Orius said:
There are just as many honour killings in India as there are in the worst Middle Eastern countries. Sgt, I ignore your cause mostly because you focus on Muslim honour killings only.
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I'm confused here, could someone please help me with this cause I'm afraid my eyes may be playing tricks on me. Did the OP say this?

SgtRock said:
Over 5000 women and a few men are killed in honour killings each year. The majority of these are muslims, hindus, and sikhs.
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I could've swore he said that. He said that right? My eyes aren't playing tricks on me?

Hindu...Hindu...where is Hindu usually practiced...Hindu. Oh!

Wiki said:
Hinduism is the predominant religion[1] of the Indian subcontinent
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That's right. India.

And Sikhs. Sikhs, hmmm...Sikhs. What country was it that had the biggest population of them....hmm?

Wiki said:
Regions with significant populations
India......19,215,730
United Kingdom......750,000
Canada......278,400
United States......100,000
Malaysia......100,000
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Ah, that's right. India.

Hm, yes...he obvious focus's soley on Muslims and completely ignores India.

Yes, he may focus on Muslims primarily but even then, I'm pretty sure he's pointing out its not just isolated to them
 
Tashah said:
Technically you are correct.
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I love that turn of phrase. :lol:

Tashah said:
I'll rephrase. Most female honor-killings occur in predominantly Muslim countries. Over 5000 women and girls are killed every year by family members in so-called 'honour killings' according to the UN. These crimes occur where cultures believe that a woman's unsanctioned sexual behaviour brings such shame on the family that any female accused or suspected must be murdered. Reasons for these murders can be as trivial as talking to a man, or as innocent as suffering rape.
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Could you perhaps provide numbers for the countries which are not predominantly Muslim, especially the countries in the Western hemisphere where this practice continues today?

Any chance you might also have numbers comparing the number of honor killings perpetrated by Muslims versus those who are not?

Without that kind of data, words like "most" don't really have any meaning.
 
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TacticalEvilDan said:
Could you perhaps provide numbers for the countries which are not predominantly Muslim, especially the countries in the Western hemisphere where this practice continues today? Any chance you might also have numbers comparing the number of honor killings perpetrated by Muslims versus those who are not?
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Even the UN admits that it is impossible to collate honor-killing numbers for many reasons:

- sanctioned by the state
- ignored by authorities
- never reported
- declared a suicide

TacticalEvilDan said:
Without that kind of data, words like "most" don't really have any meaning.
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Perhaps not to you. I do know this though. Honor-killings occur with great frequency from Pakistan to Egypt. You seem to have this notion that my intent here is to diminish Islam. It is not. Talking with you is much like walking in a minefield. Generally, folks living in the Middle East don't have to parse each word with such strict inflexibility.

Have you ever seen an honor-killing? I have. Twice. Both were Muslim women. I will always speak out on this phenomena as it effects Muslim women because it is what I know firsthand. If you wish to speak out on behalf of other gender-violence victims across the globe, by all means do so. But don't criticize other voices simply because their primary focus offends your personal sense of political correctness.
 
Tashah said:
Even the UN admits that it is impossible to collate honor-killing numbers for many reasons:

- sanctioned by the state
- ignored by authorities
- never reported
- declared a suicide


Perhaps not to you. I do know this though. Honor-killings occur with great frequency from Pakistan to Egypt. You seem to have this notion that my intent here is to diminish Islam. It is not. Talking with you is much like walking in a minefield. Generally, folks living in the Middle East don't have to parse each word with such strict inflexibility.
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You said, and I quote, "Most female honor-killings occur in predominantly Muslim countries." I asked you to substantiate that claim, and you have just proven that it is impossible to do so. Thank you.

Tashah said:
I will always speak out on this phenomena as it effects Muslim women because it is what I know firsthand. If you wish to speak out on behalf of other gender-violence victims across the globe, by all means do so. But don't criticize other voices simply because their primary focus offends your personal sense of political correctness.
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As I have said previously, and will continue to say, these killings are not about Islam. That is the point that I will continue to drive home, and which so many continue to ignore for reasons beyond my ability to comprehend.

It is that characterization which offends me.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
My point is that honor killings are not Islamic in nature, period. They are a function of a pre-existing culture which predates Islam, so threads like these do not, as you previously asserted they do, expose the "seamy underbelly" if Islam.
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And that is a good point. Another point we might want to consider is how some cultures are slower/quicker to adapt from our pre-existing cultural babarisms to evolve into a more civilized species.

We certainly have enough problems of our own here in this country with men injuring and killing women. But it really has nothing to do with anything honorable in our cultural belief system here. But I have to confess, it's been a long time since I have read in the paper that some American beheaded their own sister for getting raped, or falling in love with the wrong person, or refusing to wear some kind of head dress, or not totally submitting to their male counterparts. I dunno. Call us crazy. :roll:
 
Captain America said:
And that is a good point. Another point we might want to consider is how some cultures are slower/quicker to adapt from our pre-existing cultural babarisms to evolve into a more civilized species.
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That, to me, is a far more interesting topic for discussion, since it doesn't begin by mischaracterizing the problem. :cool:

Captain America said:
We certainly have enough problems of our own here in this country with men injuring and killing women. But it really has nothing to do with anything honorable in our cultural belief system here.
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A generation ago, some men beat their wives on the grounds that it was their perogative as head of the household to use violence to keep the family in line.

A generation ago, black men were still being hung for the crime of being black -- sometimes because they refused to be cowed, sometimes because they supposedly got involved with white woman, but in all cases for being black without being sufficiently subservient.

It hasn't been all that long since we last dragged a black man behind a pickup truck or killed a man for being gay.

Captain America said:
But I have to confess, it's been a long time since I have read in the paper that some American beheaded their own sister for getting raped, or falling in love with the wrong person, or refusing to wear some kind of head dress, or not totally submitting to their male counterparts. I dunno. Call us crazy. :roll:
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We generally don't behead people. We prefer guns, nooses, and blunt force trauma. :lol:
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
That, to me, is a far more interesting topic for discussion, since it doesn't begin by mischaracterizing the problem. :cool:
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A generation ago, some men beat their wives on the grounds that it was their perogative as head of the household to use violence to keep the family in line.
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As a society we do not condone acts of domestic violence today. Some men still beat there wives for the reason you suggest. That does not mean that we can not educate ourselfs about other human rights issues.

A generation ago, black men were still being hung for the crime of being black -- sometimes because they refused to be cowed, sometimes because they supposedly got involved with white woman, but in all cases for being black without being sufficiently subservient.
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Racism and crimes against blacks and other ethnic minorities are an ugly part of our past. And we have dealt with these problems, peoples attitudes towards those who are different than them have changed for the most part. However things did not change because we refused to talk about them or because we denied they were taking place. TED, things changed because people became educated through discussion and debate such as what we do right here at DP.

It hasn't been all that long since we last dragged a black man behind a pickup truck or killed a man for being gay.
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We did not drag a black man behind a pickup truck. Two ignorant cretins dragged James Byrd to death.


We generally don't behead people. We prefer guns, nooses, and blunt force trauma. :lol:
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We also live in a society where people who commit crimes with guns, nooses, and bft are prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced. In some muslim countries they have not evolved or should I say advanced as we have. In many cases those that kill to protect family honour never face jail time or even prosecution. Many honour killings involve multiple family members and other members of the comunity conspiring to kill an innocent family member.

We also do not kill to protect family honour. That is the subject of this thread. The only way this will ever stop is if people talk about it and become involved. Your attempt to divert the subject by pointing to America has been noted.
 
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Zyphlin said:
Yes, he may focus on Muslims primarily but even then, I'm pretty sure he's pointing out its not just isolated to them
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Yeah, he mentioned Hindus to appear holistic, but he's still focusing on the Islamic world exclusively. What about East Asian honour killings? Look at how many threads against Islam he posts. All the pics of victims he has posted have come from Muslim honour killings.

So don't blast me for pointing out the obvious.
 
Orius said:
So don't blast me for pointing out the obvious.
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Yet you blast him for pointing out the obvious. Do a comprehensive search of all news articles that contain the word “honor-killing”. It doesn't take a genius to categorize the returned compendium vis-a-vis incident identifiers such as geographic location and event rationale.
 
Zyphlin said:
And even then, comparing the United States to places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and others that have attrocious women's rights (which is EXACTLY what he said by saying "one of those" being the U.S.) is absolutely positively laughable.

Show me those countries where a woman is running legitimately the chance to be in one of the highest offices in the land (Hillary in the primaries, Palin in the general). That one of the most powerful legislators is a female (Pelosi). Where there are independent business owners, private bosses, all the way up to CEO's that are female? Hell, for some of them, show me where their female can dress in whatever they want and go wherever they want without a man? How about that epidemic amount of Honor Killings going through the U.S., its undoubtably equal proportionally to those countries.

Give me a ****ing break. This is like saying the Los Angelos Clippers are the same as the Boston Celtics because they both play baseketball and have lost games.
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the minister of education in Saudi Arabia is a female
Saudi Arabia appoints its first female cabinet minister | Tentative steps in Saudi Arabia | The Economist
 
Wonderful, they're making progress. They're still not on par with the freedoms and equality for women that is presented to them in the majority of the Western World and the United States.

It is still absolutely laughable to say that the condition of Womens Rights in the United States is exactly the same as it in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or other places in the world with a poor record of women's rights
 
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