• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Chavez now can reelect himself for life

Argentina is bolivarianist even if it wasn't free by Bolivar.

chavez_trial_0902.jpg


Chávez and the Cash-Filled Suitcase




Sitting in a Florida steakhouse a year ago this month, millionaire Venezuelan oilman Frank Duran allegedly gave his friend Guido Antonini Wilson a dark warning. "A moment might come," Duran said, "when nobody can save Antonini's skin."



Argentina's President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner and Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez applaud after signing bilateral accords in Miraflores Palace in Caracas.

Antonini, a Venezuelan businessman with U.S. citizenship, was indeed in a jam. A month earlier, he'd arrived in Buenos Aires on a chartered flight with Argentine energy officials and executives of Venezuela's state-run oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA). Argentine customs agents then caught him with a suitcase stuffed with $800,000 in cash. Antonini was allowed to return to the U.S. — but it seemed the entire hemisphere wanted to know if he'd been carrying the money for Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez as some sort of bribe for the Argentine government.

Today, however, it's Duran whose legal skin that needs saving. Last December he and four other men, three Venezuelans and an Uruguayan, were charged in Miami with failing to register as foreign government agents. U.S. prosecutors say the men, at the behest of "high-level" Venezuelan government officials, cajoled and even
threatened Antonini to keep mum about the real purpose of all that cash: an illegal contribution from Venezuela to the presidential campaign of then Argentine Senator and First Lady Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, a Chavez ally. One of the men, Moises Maionica, pleaded guilty in January; one is at large and another — Carlos Kauffman, a close Duran pal — pleaded guilty in March, leaving Duran all but alone to face trial in Miami that began this week.

Both backers and critics of Chavez say the radical left-wing Venezuelan President is tacitly on trial himself. It's no secret that Chavez, who controls the hemisphere's largest oil reserves, lavishes billions of dollars in foreign aid on allies to promote his anti-U.S. Bolivarian Revolution. Foes have long groused that his largesse can also be as shadowy as the covert U.S. operations Chavez accuses agencies like the CIA of perpetrating. They contend that he has funneled cash to leftist candidates in presidential races from Bolivia to Mexico, and that he has helped fund Marxist guerrillas like the FARC in Colombia. Chavez has just as adamantly denied those charges, as have his supposed beneficiaries.

It wasn't until Antonini's luggage was opened in 2007 — and until Colombian authorities claimed last spring that seized guerrilla laptops revealed Chavez payments of as much as $300 million to the FARC — that alleged evidence of Caracas' covert dealings had ever surfaced. The top prosecutor on the Antonini case, Assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas Mulvihill, has said in hearings that conversations recorded by an FBI wire that Antonini wore prove the suitcase money "was meant for the campaign of Cristina [Fernandez]." And according to court documents filed this summer, Kauffman is expected to testify they were told by high-level Venezuelan officials that Chavez was personally involved in the alleged suitcase affair and its aftermath.

One question Chavez supporters ask is why Fernandez would even need his cash when she held a more than 20-point lead in voter polls leading up to last October's election, which she won handily. When the campaign contribution allegation was made shortly after her inauguration, she took it as a Yanqui affront to her own government and angrily called the case a "garbage operation." The Casa Rosada, the Argentine presidential palace, insists instead that the U.S. should extradite Antonini to Argentina.

Indeed, the acid relationship between Chavez and the U.S. has also thrown the Bush Administration's motives into doubt. Thomas Shannon, U.S. assistant secretary of state for western hemisphere affairs, has insisted the indictments stem purely from "a judicial process" and not politics. Venezuela and defense lawyers claim otherwise. Chavez, who accuses the White House of backing a failed 2002 coup against him, calls the case "part of the U.S. empire's plan" to smear him. Duran's attorney, Edward Shohat, argues that the statute at play — acting, or conspiring to act, as a foreign agent without permission — has been used only when espionage or a threat to U.S. security was involved. "The U.S. has no security interest in this matter," he says. "This case is political."

If this does turn out to be a kind of Watergate for Chavez, it will have started under similarly clumsy circumstances. Antonini, 46, now claims the suitcase wasn't his — that he was carrying it for another Venezuelan passenger on the Cessna Citation that landed in the wee hours of Aug. 4, 2007, at Buenos Aires' Aeroparque Jorge Newberry — and that he wasn't aware of its contents. But Maria del Lujan Telpuk, the agent who stopped Antonini inside Newberry's VIP sector, says he became visibly nervous when she asked him to open the bag. "I had to insist," says Telpuk, who recalls the dollar bills "literally spilling out" when Antonini unzipped it. (Telpuk, 28, has since parlayed her new fame and good looks onto the cover of the Argentine edition of Playboy magazine — holding a suitcase beneath the caption "Corruption Undressed.")

One of the Cessna's passengers claims that two days later Antonini joined them at a reception in the Casa Rosada. Argentine officials dispute that. Either way, Antonini returned home to Key Biscayne, Florida, scared enough to cooperate with FBI agents. For the next four months they monitored his meetings and calls with Duran, 40; Kauffman, 35, a Venezuelan partner of Duran's in oil products and drilling equipment firms; Maionica, 36, a Venezuelan lawyer; Antonio Jose Canchica, 37, an agent of the Venezuelan intelligence service, DISIP; and Rodolfo Wanseele, 40, an Uruguayan and Canchica's driver. Maionica and Kauffman face a maximum five years each in prison; Canchica is at large; and Duran and Wanseele, who have pleaded not guilty and are set to go on trial on Tuesday, face a maximum 10 years each.

Court documents allege Maionica confided he was "brought into the conspiracy by a high-level official of DISIP." They say Kauffman and Duran — who own ritzy Florida homes, enjoy racing Ferraris and are part of what Venezuelans call the revolution's "Boli-bourgeoisie" — issued thinly veiled threats. They warned that "foreign government authorities would pursue Antonini" if he talked, and that it was in his children's best interest that he have "no problems" with Venezuela. At one cloak-and-dagger gathering, Canchica, using the name "Christian," allegedly told Antonini that PDVSA (the Venezuelan oil corporation) and the Chavez government would make his legal problems vanish.

Mulvihill claims to have 41 audio recordings and eight videotapes to play at trial; and the Maionica and Kauffman guilty pleas suggest that evidence may be as potent as he suggests. Then again, Duran and Wanseele might be risking a trial partly because they know Mulvihill also charged Fidel Castro in the late 1980s with aiding Colombian drug traffickers, an accusation that was never proven. Either way, Chavez and the U.S. may both face more scrutiny this month than either bargained for.

URL: SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA: Chávez and the Cash-Filled Suitcase
 
Sadly, Chavez is controlling all the continent.

Note: Even Ernesto "Che" Guevara rejected FARC, why is Chavez supporting them? I just don't understand how someone can be so stupid!
 
Sadly, Chavez is controlling all the continent.

Note: Even Ernesto "Che" Guevara rejected FARC, why is Chavez supporting them? I just don't understand how someone can be so stupid!

Unrestrained power. He has as much money as he needs or wants I'm sure.

All that is left is power.
 
Sure.
Leftists are those who make poors and richs.
 
I hope we never go down this path of removing term limits. To me, there is something inherentley dangerous for giving someone the ability to be elected for life.
In fact, I rather like( I believe it was Reagan that proposed it, I may be wrong ) that our president serve 1, 6 year limit. I also would rather see term limits for Reps, and Senators. The power and corruption of government is too great, to allow people to work within it for a long period of time.
 
I hope we never go down this path of removing term limits. To me, there is something inherentley dangerous for giving someone the ability to be elected for life.
In fact, I rather like( I believe it was Reagan that proposed it, I may be wrong ) that our president serve 1, 6 year limit. I also would rather see term limits for Reps, and Senators. The power and corruption of government is too great, to allow people to work within it for a long period of time.

Meh, it isn't like almost all Western nations have term limits. I know we don't in Britain and they don't in Australia. I don't consider either of these more despotic then the US.
 
I wasn't who posted his name. It was Harry Guerrilla.
 
The founding fathers of the USA did not have term limits.
 
The founding fathers of the USA were freemasons...
 
Meh, it isn't like almost all Western nations have term limits. I know we don't in Britain and they don't in Australia. I don't consider either of these more despotic then the US.

Well we don't have them for our Congressmen or Supreme Court Justices. Just our President.

But I favor term limits in any case. I'd rather see an influx of new blood into Washington on a more regular basis, not just when one party screws up.
 
Some people say that beign young is bad because it means you don't have experience. However, if you remember well, the older generations are the ones who have this world as bad as it is now.
 
As long as Chavez hates the USA in his rhetoric the left in the USA will embrace him and excuse him.


He's a Far Left Socialist Despot who controls virtually all aspects of Venezuelan life. He is now dictator for life. He will never leave office until dead. "Elections/Votes" there have been shams since he took power.

Chavez has shown how easy it is to destroy a Democracy openly. While he did/does it he has the support of those on the left in the USA who decry anyone tampering with what he has thrown away.


Even better he has a friend now in the WH..... State department has already congratulated him for this.


People who buy into these votes being fair and free probably argued those in the USSR and former Warsaw Pact states where also free and fair. That Saddam was isolated. That Iran really isn't at fault for wanting to exterminate Jews. You name it..if it hates the USA the left in this nation wil do anything to defend it.


To the west Columbia is threatened by Chavez's continued supplying and support off FARC.

To the east Guyana is threatened do to the fact that he has claimed HALF their county up to the Essoquibo river.


Luckily the combination of terrain the USA and EU so far have stopped this megalomaniac from starting a war. Failing that he is busily reviving and supporting various insurgency groups throughout the region. Most notably FARC in Columbia...but also Peru, Mexico, and others. As well as funding various leftist politicians..Ortega in Nicaragua...and the guy(forget his name) in Bolivia.

I doubt many of his leftist supporters in the USA even know he was a Far Right Army man who tried to seize power in a bloody coup in 1992....but then they probably don't bother themselves with him past "he hates the USA and bashed bush hurray!"

With Obama in the WH Chavez is sitting pretty and should probably start developing nukes. So Obama can offer him half of Guyana.
 
As long as Chavez hates the USA in his rhetoric the left in the USA will embrace him and excuse him.


He's a Far Left Socialist Despot who controls virtually all aspects of Venezuelan life. He is now dictator for life. He will never leave office until dead. "Elections/Votes" there have been shams since he took power.

Chavez has shown how easy it is to destroy a Democracy openly. While he did/does it he has the support of those on the left in the USA who decry anyone tampering with what he has thrown away.


Even better he has a friend now in the WH..... State department has already congratulated him for this.


People who buy into these votes being fair and free probably argued those in the USSR and former Warsaw Pact states where also free and fair. That Saddam was isolated. That Iran really isn't at fault for wanting to exterminate Jews. You name it..if it hates the USA the left in this nation wil do anything to defend it.


To the west Columbia is threatened by Chavez's continued supplying and support off FARC.

To the east Guyana is threatened do to the fact that he has claimed HALF their county up to the Essoquibo river.


Luckily the combination of terrain the USA and EU so far have stopped this megalomaniac from starting a war. Failing that he is busily reviving and supporting various insurgency groups throughout the region. Most notably FARC in Columbia...but also Peru, Mexico, and others. As well as funding various leftist politicians..Ortega in Nicaragua...and the guy(forget his name) in Bolivia.

I doubt many of his leftist supporters in the USA even know he was a Far Right Army man who tried to seize power in a bloody coup in 1992....but then they probably don't bother themselves with him past "he hates the USA and bashed bush hurray!"

With Obama in the WH Chavez is sitting pretty and should probably start developing nukes. So Obama can offer him half of Guyana.

What exactly about elections under Chavez do you find inadequate?

As a far left loon ive got to say that im more interested in his economic and social reforms then his bush bashing [which personally i find extreamly annoying]. If you look at child literacy, infant mortality, health care, poverty rates, enrolement in higher education etc. then its easy to see why he has such a high level of support in the country. Namely because for all his faults he,s offering an alternative to the washington consensus model thats been forced on the continent, [often through violence] despite the fact that its weilded no posstive results for the contients poorest. As i keep saying try comparing the stats i mentioned in Venuzuela with those in Peru or Brazil.

I think the idea that the countries progress is wholely dependant on Chavez himself has a disturbing element of meglomania about it but regardless of what you think of Chavez's style of government it continues to exist because its what people in the country want not because of some fictional totalitarian state. Chavez has won over 50% 7 times. In this sence Venuzuela is far more democratic then the UK where no party has won a general election with over 50% of votes cast since the 1930s. Its also got to be said that most of europe doesnt have term limits.

Thats not to say i particually like Chavez. I dislike the regimes he builds alliances with, the polarisation he encourages and his general meglomania but at the end of the day he,s in power because he is well liked in the country and with good reason. Im just getting fed up with the right wing press crying foul everytime people in foriegn countrys elect a leader they dislike.
 
Last edited:
What exactly about elections under Chavez do you find inadequate?

As a far left loon ive got to say that im more interested in his economic and social reforms then his bush bashing [which personally i find extreamly annoying]. If you look at child literacy, infant mortality, health care, poverty rates, enrolement in higher education etc. then its easy to see why he has such a high level of support in the country. Namely because for all his faults he,s offering an alternative to the washington consensus model thats been forced on the continent, [often through violence] despite the fact that its weilded no posstive results for the contients poorest. As i keep saying try comparing the stats i mentioned in Venuzuela with those in Peru or Brazil.

I think the idea that the countries progress is wholely dependant on Chavez himself has a disturbing element of meglomania about it but regardless of what you think of Chavez's style of government it continues to exist because its what people in the country want not because of some fictional totalitarian state. Chavez has won over 50% 7 times. In this sence Venuzuela is far more democratic then the UK where no party has won a general election with over 50% of votes cast since the 1930s. Its also got to be said that most of europe doesnt have term limits.

Thats not to say i particually like Chavez. I dislike the regimes he builds alliances with, the polarisation he encourages and his general meglomania but at the end of the day he,s in power because he is well liked in the country and with good reason. Im just getting fed up with the right wing press crying foul everytime people in foriegn countrys elect a leader they dislike.

Wouldn't you agree though that he is bordering on super tyrannical?
 
I hope we never go down this path of removing term limits. To me, there is something inherentley dangerous for giving someone the ability to be elected for life.
In fact, I rather like( I believe it was Reagan that proposed it, I may be wrong ) that our president serve 1, 6 year limit. I also would rather see term limits for Reps, and Senators. The power and corruption of government is too great, to allow people to work within it for a long period of time.
Wake up... in the US we call it "redistricting".
 
No. On the contrary he,s brought around alot of benefits.On what evidence could he be considered tyranical?

I wouldn't say he is tyrannical and in fact some of his reforms seem to have taken power from more centralised unaccountable sources like TNCs and placed them in a decentralised fashion in local sections of the population. But on the other hand he has made some authoritarian moves like cracking down on some media outlets that criticise him, some centralisation of power in the country and some attempts to hold on to power indefinitely like this one seem dubious to me. So althogether he is a mixed bag in my book.

I realise though that it is the movement as much as Chavez that has achieved the good things in the country and I tend to think his trying to use that to keep power is not noble deed. Without Chavez in charge I think the movement could easily keep going, perhaps better for it.
 
I just want a person who enjoys the risks and fruits of liberty to end his pathetic existence.
Then be a man and go murder him yourself, or, if you prefer, shut the hell up and stop advocating the murder of democratically elected political figures who displease you. :)
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom